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Old 08-26-2013, 11:40 PM   #85
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Nissan of NA (as well as Toyota, Honda, et.al) Have products built for North America which have never nor will see Japan. They are specific for our market. As well, they have a rather large American field force who have seen everything you have...and more.
I interact with personnel from many other automakers quite often....their processes specs, etc are little different than the rest of us.
I'm not sure if I understand your response to my earlier comments??? The Q45 isn't a north american product nor is it a standard/mainstream product built using common industry processes and specs.

The Nissan Cima (called the Infiniti Q45 in north america) was designed, engineered and built in Japan. The build quality, strength and power of the Q45 combine, in my opinion, to make one of the top automobiles that has been created in automotive history to date.

From a review of the Q45 that I read at the time–
"...Performance
...the first gen Q45s were performance oriented...Nissan's 4.5 liter V-8 VK45DE. Similar in design to Nissan's much vaulted V-6 VQ series engines, the VK45DE is all aluminum alloy with DOHC and 32 valves. This engine features variable length air induction system, continuously variable valve timing control system, titanium valves, modular cylinder heads, microfinished crankshaft, lightweight pistons (coated with molybdenum), super-silent single stage cam drive chain and a hydraulically driven cooling fan (powered by the steering system - allowing for low noise and power loss). All of this technology and craftsmanship is good for a velvety smooth 340 bhp @ 6,400 rpm and 333 ft-lbs of torque @ 4,000 rpm (over 80% of which is available from 1,700 rpm).

Our editors have driven the likes of Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes. The Merc and Lexus don't hold a dime to the new Q...The new Q excels in back country roads, especially in sport trim with 18" wheels/tires and active damping suspension...Infiniti has done a great job of balancing ride comfort and handling.

The smooth shifting 5 speed automatic works in tandem with the V-8 to produce seamless and quiet acceleration so that you forget how fast you're going until you look at the speedometer. Our editors enjoyed the flexibility of the manual-shifting mode but missed the instantaneous action offered by a true manual transmission. Still the manumatic mode held gears until near red line and could shave off a few seconds on a road course track.

True to its flagship high tech totem pole status, the Q gets vehicle dynamics control (a sophisticated form of traction control) paired up with limited slip differential so you can toss it around corners. Even then the Q’s suspension is amazingly supple and soaks up bumps and ruts in the highways.

Braking performance is on par with it's competitors boasting large four wheel vented discs, ABS (of course), electronic brake distribution (EBD), and mechanical/electronic braking assist. The latter senses when the driver is attempting to brake quickly and helps to apply more braking force."

Before I read about the Q45, I had never heard of molybdenum. Turns out, molybdenum has the sixth-highest melting point of any element. It readily forms hard, stable carbides in alloys, and for this reason is used in making high strength steel alloys and superalloys. (Apparently, much of the new engine technology found in the Q45, was developed for and derived from Infiniti’s formula 1 engines.)

Back at the time, I also read some interesting stories about the lengths they went to at the factory in Japan to ensure the build quality was of the highest possible order -- for example, they had the tightest possible panel fits of any vehicle, and etc. And then I also remember one time the owner from our local Krown rust control place (who spray the car's underbody every fall), went out of his way to show me how Infiniti had built the underneath edges to ensure there were no areas where dirt and water could penetrate and cause rust, and how "you just don't find that kind of thing on other vehicles".

In conclusion, if it were ever possible to meet the Q45's chief engineer from Japan, Mr. Teruo Miyauchi, I would first like to shake his hand and tell him how much I like his car. I don't know what experience he may or may not have with rv'ing, but I am fairly certain he would be very intrigued to see the combination that Andy from Canam helped us to create, by pairing his car with our international serenity (which we love), attached with a Hensley. I am also fairly certain he'd enjoy sharing the pleasure of putting this setup through it's paces, in a slalom course, and some double lane-change manouevers, especially with some back-to-back comparisons with boxy trailers and changing over to pick-ups, and then also with or without hensleys...
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:37 AM   #86
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I am only saying that their reps are American who have grown up in the same auto environment as you and I and would not be "intrigued" by seeing a modified and potentially overloaded (I have no idea what you have) vehicle. Nissan has commercial products here that I don't believe, due to size, they have in Japan. ie. Titan, NV1500, NV2500, NV3500. I believe the NV200 IS sold in Japan. I am sure their reps have seen improperly loaded......just as I see it virtually weekly, if not daily in my commercial products. (I have no retail responsibilities currently, but sure saw it in retail as well when I was a retail rep)
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Old 08-27-2013, 12:39 PM   #87
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I will restate my position to see if we can conclude...
The max tow numbers that are published, and which are then quoted as a kind of definitive “thou shalt not” gospel, are likely based on the lowest common denominator using some kind of standardized / basic set-up. At least, if I were in charge of determining these numbers, that is how I would do it, seeing as I would have no control over what someone is attaching, or doing at, or to, the back of my vehicle.
I get the feeling that the word “modification”, as in the way you wrote your previous post, and saying “potentially overloaded”, infers almost as if someone is doing something that they otherwise should not be doing. If someone jacks up the rear end of their car and puts-on oversized tires. That would be such a modification, I agree, that would potential overload the vehicles designed handling and performance characteristics. I think the vehicles designers/engineers would be unhappy and dismayed, as it would result in a less stable vehicle, even though it may look “really cool” to the vehicle’s owner in their subjective opinion.
By comparison, creating an optimized towing solution, by using weight-distribution, a beefier hitch assembly employing the 4-point Hensley stability control system, towing a more aerodynamic trailer with a lower centre of gravity and employing products of higher build quality throughout, matching the build quality of the tow vehicle; these endeavours are achieved by the application of ingenuity and common sense.
An image of my set-up is posted here on airforums, which you should be able to find by clicking under my profile name. The vehicle engineers would likely be very pleased and excited, perhaps even feel as enthusiastic as I do, to see someone employing more advanced designs and solutions to unlock and optimize their vehicle’s potential. Perhaps “pleased and excited” is a better description of their possible feelings – I apologize if my earlier use of the word “intrigued” was somehow offensive to you.
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Old 08-27-2013, 12:48 PM   #88
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You don't understand my position nor intent. done-let's move on.
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Old 08-27-2013, 05:00 PM   #89
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Well we all agree the Q45 is a great vehicle....but not for us.

We rationalized our TV....as you did yours.

Can we all just shut-up and drive now.

Bob
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Old 08-27-2013, 07:02 PM   #90
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One has to remember that not all that long ago, the praise heaped on vehicles by the automotive press was in direct proportion to the advertising dollars spent in said magazine. It's been rumored that a senior advertising VP would "shop" the Motor Trend Car of the Year award based on the amount a manufacturer would spend to promote the MTCOTY award.

There used to be a top secret shop in SoCal filled with engineers and stylists for Nissan that commuted regularly to Japan.

Anybody remember the Datsun Bluebird? Early on, the marketing people at Datsun justified that name based on the fact that the top selling cars in the US in the sixties had names like Thunderbird, Eagle (AMC), Skylark (Buick), etc.
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:56 PM   #91
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I will restate my position to see if we can conclude...
The max tow numbers that are published, and which are then quoted as a kind of definitive “thou shalt not” gospel, are likely based on the lowest common denominator using some kind of standardized / basic set-up. At least, if I were in charge of determining these numbers, that is how I would do it, seeing as I would have no control over what someone is attaching, or doing at, or to, the back of my vehicle.
I get the feeling that the word “modification”, as in the way you wrote your previous post, and saying “potentially overloaded”, infers almost as if someone is doing something that they otherwise should not be doing. If someone jacks up the rear end of their car and puts-on oversized tires. That would be such a modification, I agree, that would potential overload the vehicles designed handling and performance characteristics. I think the vehicles designers/engineers would be unhappy and dismayed, as it would result in a less stable vehicle, even though it may look “really cool” to the vehicle’s owner in their subjective opinion.
By comparison, creating an optimized towing solution, by using weight-distribution, a beefier hitch assembly employing the 4-point Hensley stability control system, towing a more aerodynamic trailer with a lower centre of gravity and employing products of higher build quality throughout, matching the build quality of the tow vehicle; these endeavours are achieved by the application of ingenuity and common sense.
An image of my set-up is posted here on airforums, which you should be able to find by clicking under my profile name. The vehicle engineers would likely be very pleased and excited, perhaps even feel as enthusiastic as I do, to see someone employing more advanced designs and solutions to unlock and optimize their vehicle’s potential. Perhaps “pleased and excited” is a better description of their possible feelings – I apologize if my earlier use of the word “intrigued” was somehow offensive to you.
Your vehicle's manual should CLEARLY state the tow rating, axle ratings, payload, tongue weight limit (with and without weight distribution), and GCVWR (if applicable). Instead of speculating on how the manufacturers come up with their tow ratings, how about you call/email them and just ask? Just go to their website, and click on contacts.

I am amazed as how you want to spin what the manufacturer says to make your point. You might just say you do not want to follow the manufacturer's rating (and that is fine with me; You are responsible for that anyway). But this much spin is just unbelievable.
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:03 PM   #92
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They tend to spin a lot in the GWN. TETO.

Bob
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Old 08-27-2013, 11:14 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by rostam View Post
Your vehicle's manual should CLEARLY state the tow rating, axle ratings, payload, tongue weight limit (with and without weight distribution), and GCVWR (if applicable). Instead of speculating on how the manufacturers come up with their tow ratings, how about you call/email them and just ask? Just go to their website, and click on contacts.

I am amazed as how you want to spin what the manufacturer says to make your point. You might just say you do not want to follow the manufacturer's rating (and that is fine with me; You are responsible for that anyway). But this much spin is just unbelievable.
Here's a nice potted look at how ratings are set, an article published by Truck Trend magazine a couple of years ago, with apologies to those who will have seen it before:

The Numbers Game: Current Practice & The Ratings - Consumer Feature - Truck Trend

Certainly you can't believe all you read but this piece does give attributed quotes from people in the Industry, which lends it quite a bit of credence in my view. As you see, it's not all about engineering and finite, measurable limits, hence the drive for an industry wide standard (yet to be adopted by the big domestic manufacturers!).

As you say though, Rostam, regardless of how ratings are derived and set, individual owners are responsible for their own vehicles and how they use them.
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:40 AM   #94
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Although much is left out of this planning and process write up, it is 100% accurate based on my personal experience. GCWR is first in the process after market/competitive analysis AND anticipation of competitor product releases during the life cycle of your own soon to be offering.
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:05 AM   #95
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And what exactly is that supposed to mean?

I suppose you think we all live in igloos up here in the GWN - might I remind you that certain parts (even excluding Alaska) of the United States are further north than I am right now in Southern Ontario.

I for one am quite sick of reading of the people who insist that you must have a 1-ton truck to tow a 34' Airstream. I'm not exceeding any factory number published with mine and have close to a 40% margin. It's almost like there is a great deal of mine is bigger than yours going on here.



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They tend to spin a lot in the GWN. TETO.

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Old 08-28-2013, 08:05 AM   #96
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Here's a nice potted look at how ratings are set, an article published by Truck Trend magazine a couple of years ago, with apologies to those who will have seen it before:

The Numbers Game: Current Practice & The Ratings - Consumer Feature - Truck Trend

Certainly you can't believe all you read but this piece does give attributed quotes from people in the Industry, which lends it quite a bit of credence in my view. As you see, it's not all about engineering and finite, measurable limits, hence the drive for an industry wide standard (yet to be adopted by the big domestic manufacturers!).

As you say though, Rostam, regardless of how ratings are derived and set, individual owners are responsible for their own vehicles and how they use them.
I agree that tow rating are not accurate on most vehicles due to marketing (hence I am in favor of SAE standards). But the ratings are mostly over-stated not under-stated.

At the end of the day TETO.
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:30 AM   #97
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Understand the SAE ratings will be performance based and lower than the capability specs. I have been assured by Brand Managers and engineering that we will still have the same specs available as we have today for capability spec'ing. The only thing the SAE spec will do is allow for apples to apples road performance to give the average person an understandable baseline. I predict it will add a lot of confusion and more fiery discourse on this forum relative to under sizing/over sizing tow vehicle selection.
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:44 AM   #98
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I agree that tow rating are not accurate on most vehicles due to marketing (hence I am in favor of SAE standards). But the ratings are mostly over-stated not under-stated.

At the end of the day TETO.
What's TETO?

There are plenty of understated tow ratings (and thus, GCWR), the ubiquitous minivan being one of them. There's a standard 3,500 lb rating on every minivan produced in the last thirty years, regardless of manufacturer. The construction and performance of these vehicles has improved immeasurably over time and yet the rating stays the same.

The reasons why there are understated ratings rest with the manufacturers. I can speculate that they don't test these vehicles for towing performance so don't want to commit to a higher figure for fear of being sued. I can also speculate that the manufacturers would prefer that you bought a high margin truck for towing rather than the lower margin van; the marketing is clearly "trucks for towing" and "minivans for Soccer Moms". I couldn't back any of that up, of course, but you do get to wondering, especially when the recent crop of minivans will rival a half ton truck in most towing related specifications.

Anyway, that's just my view of it.
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