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SilverGate · 08-13-2006, 10:39 AM

Price of diesel fuel is often more than premium gas now…

See Fuel Price Watch thread:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f161/fuel-price-watch-18423-18.html

And now with new diesel fuel standard of ULSD …
And the ongoing "world war" and leaking Alaskan pipe lines…
Would you choose gas or diesel as your next tow vehicle?

Bill (considering a PSD F-250 to pull a 23' Safari)

lewster · 08-13-2006, 10:48 AM

Since there is no other TV out there that will do what my Sprinter does....that is carry 3500lbs of cargo AND pull my 19CCD comfortably AND still get 14-17.5 mpg towing cross country, 22-23 with no trailer........I'll be using the sludge for a long time!!!!

But if the prices keep climbing like they are, Big Oil keeps handing out $100million bonuses and retirement packaged to their execs while letting their delivery infrastructure rot

and our governmant refuses to embrace the existing high mileage technology of diesels

, I'll just have to start brewing my own bio-diesel. I think the current fuel prices have pushed the investment past the break-even point!!!

2airishuman · 08-13-2006, 10:53 AM

hey silver gate......

great idea for a thread!

so i'll giver a wack....

yes i'd consider diesel. and really i wish my car was diesel too now....

many issues to weigh...

new, used or really old tv?

how big a trailer?

how much towing/driving per year?

is this the only vehicle?

cost of upkeep is higher for the big diesel trucks...

higher purchase price too usually...

some say better resale prices....

how long ya gonna keep it...reports suggest these diesels will go 100s of thousands of miles....

i hope my current diesel truck
lasts until a hydrogen/diesel/elect/mulit fuel option is available...
something like the superchief ford show truck...it is cool!

hey another option for you is....
the dodgespringermercedesbenzfreightliner panel van....
5c turbo d, 6c coming...
enought to pull your safari and 20+ mp gallon of sludge.

cheers
2air'

Pick · 08-13-2006, 10:58 AM

Well, it's hard to say. I think you have to look at COST PER MILE, versus gas, diesel, etc.

One thing you have to remember, is the diesel option is not free! I believe the new Duramax option is around $7550, or there abouts. So, how many miles do you have to drive to "break even"?? ULSD is supposed to cost more than LSD, so there is even more expense.

As much as I love my diesel, I think my "dream truck" would be a duel fuel, propane/E85 8.1L gas 2500HD.

Lew, the biggest problem with brewing your own biodiesel is finding feedstock. How much fuel are you going to burn looking for and collecting it? That is if you can find any WVO at all. Then finding, picking up and purchasing methanol.

Another thought, since I have owned my Duramax for 3 years now, I sometimes wish I had bought the 8.1 L big block. Now mind you, I've had zero engine problems with mine. But, with fluctuating price of diesel above and below the price of regular gas, the worry of injector failure, the additional cost of the diesel option itself, the cost increase of ULSD and it's lubricity concerns, I am beginning to think the diesel option just isn't worth the extra cost and worry.

SafeHarbor · 08-13-2006, 11:29 AM

A diesel gets 30% greater fuel economy than a gas engine of the same horsepower. Some diesels, like the Cummins, have an extended suggested overhaul mileage range (if maintained) that can be two or three times a gasoline engine or even other diesels in pickups. With the price advantage of the fuel disappearing, it's a math question if your'e being rational about it.

If one loves the clatter and the torque of a diesel taking care of business, however, it's not a hard decision.

I plan to keep my Cummins Dodge a very long time.

Lamar

TIMEMACHINE · 08-13-2006, 11:52 AM

Here is my shot at this old question: DIESEL VS GAS? Just like many of our decisions in this world today, there is no clear answer which will stand up for more than a few days. Why you ask? Because the markets and technologies change so fast that any current answer is just that, current. By tomorrow, the pieces of the puzzle will have changed ( mostly fuel prices and vehicle specifications) and a new set of circumstances may require an adjustment to the conclusion. So far, all of the discussions I have read require some sort of permanancy to be included in the formula, which is something that I believe is a long shot in the betting world. Ok, maybe this is a bit abstract, but the logic keeps me from over analysing my desire to buy what I like, which in my book, is the most important criteria.

John

wahoonc · 08-13-2006, 12:16 PM

I still vote for diesel...my '96 7.3l Power Stroke will still be strokin' along long after the '96 vintage gas big blocks are in the salvage yards

Also as far as pricing is concerned all forms of fuel are priced all over the place and I doubt we will ever see inexpensive fuel again. Biodiesel is defintely going to be a plus for us diesel owners. I am still assembling the necessary components, but I plan on producing at least some of my own, including growing the seed it comes from

I would love to have a smaller diesel, like the old Izuzu P'up, but figure those will be coming along soon enough. I can make bio at home...can't do that with E-85...something about revanoors and illegal alkyhall

If you are towing any amount at all the diesel is going to come out money ahead in my book. My '96 isn't just for the Airstream, it also tows our equipment gooseneck, cargo trailer and car hauler. Just looks classier with the Airstream in tow

Aaron

Coastalview · 08-13-2006, 12:23 PM

I consider cost per mile with most of our vehicles. I'm pro diesel power. After owning many gas powered cars and trucks, I have found that after running cost per mile figures, the diesel powered ones had a edge on the gas, until about 5 years ago. Our 97 powerstroke pickup thats coming up on 10 years old with 85,000 miles, still hasn't what I consider a break even point after initial purchase, depreciation, maintenance, insurance, registration fees and fuel.
With the ever increasing cost for diesel, this point will only be extended.
We will continue to solely use it for pulling purposes, otherwise looks good sitting in the driveway.
A second example is my daily driver, an 81 Peugeot turbo diesel thats approching 300,000 miles. This old car is the cheapest cost per mile vehicle we own at .14 cents a mile, using the same critera above.
The car is fully depreciated (maybe even a negitive value to some), with very low maintenace costs. I'd drive it across the country tommorrow if need be.
I'd really be hard pressed to buy another new diesel powered vehicle in today's economy, as I believe the cost per mile is becoming equal.
My 2 cents

Jeff

guy99 · 08-13-2006, 12:58 PM

I looked real hard at a diesel replacement for the engine in my 1984 MH. What I couldn't get past was the really bad health effects of diesel pollution. If you aren't aware of the problem, a little research is very sobering.

Bio-fuels seem to mitigate but they are not reliably available for the types of use where we burn the most fuel - i.e. long distances.

Maybe the newer engines and the ULSD will be the answer. I'd really like to lower the impact of our RV travel, but it doesn't seem diesel is the answer at least so far.

2airishuman · 08-13-2006, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SafeHarbor

A diesel gets 30% greater fuel economy than a gas engine of the same horsepower. Some diesels, like the Cummins, have an extended suggested overhaul mileage range (if maintained) that can be two or three times a gasoline engine or even other diesels in pickups. With the price advantage of the fuel disappearing, it's a math question if your'e being rational about it.

If one loves the clatter and the torque of a diesel taking care of business, however, it's not a hard decision.

I plan to keep my Cummins Dodge a very long time.

Lamar

hey safeharbor/lamar....\

contgrats on 500...you be a master!
with this post!
i love the cummins too and the extended overhaul range is cool. also they now have a model with built in 12kilowatt generator...cool...

cheers
2air'

Goin camping · 08-13-2006, 01:23 PM

Another take on an old debate. We are in the truck market and after all the back and forth we are getting a F250 gasser. Lower purchase and fuel price. Less uncertainty over new fuel requirments. True we'll lose out on torque but other than that since the truck will be mostly for camping I doubt we'll put more than 6-8 thousand miles a year on it.

Steve Heywood · 08-13-2006, 01:38 PM

If I was looking for a new truck I'm not 100% certain I'd buy another diesel. Don't get me wrong, my 05 Super Duty is my 3rd diesel powered Ford and I LOVE IT! That said I'm tired of paying as much OR MORE for diesel as premium gas and I'm SICK of the price of diesel being so volatile. The price of diesel here in NorCal recently jumped 20 cents a gallon while gas only went up 5 cents.

I LOVE the fact that my 7,000 lb truck gets the same mileage as a co-worker's V-6 powered Toyota Tacoma. We won't even talk about a big-block gas powered 3/4 or 1 ton truck.

I plan to keep my current truck. I'm retiring some time in the next 6-9 months and own the truck I can live with for a LONG TIME.

Frank S · 08-13-2006, 01:43 PM

Hi--Gas for me. I will never tow a heavier trailer, and our 1/2 ton Suburban is also a daily driver. The negatives for me: original cost, vibration, noise, smell, expensive maintenance, fuel problems (water, jelling, wrong seasonal mix, availability), hard starting (needs 2 batteries, engine heater for cold weather). My previous experience with similar engines leads me to believe that my 5.3ltr gas engine will operate well beyond my 150K miles usage, with out engine repair. Remember what I said is for me. I understand that others with heavier loads to tow, farm work, heavy duty service, and other specialized needs will find Diesel better for their purposes.--Frank S

2airishuman · 08-13-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goin camping

We are in the truck market and after all the back and forth we are getting a F250 gasser. I doubt we'll put more than 6-8 thousand miles a year on it.

hi goin camping....

this is absolutely logical thinking....and why not everyone needs a psd superduty....

with your trailer i suspect mpg will not drop much....

even without the psd, the super duty is a good choice...
the brake controller is amazing. the
tow command tranny functions very well.
and the big mirrors...nice.
pulse you still have lots of towing reserve should you want a bigger airstream....

i pull an 11k lbs 34. plan to tow 30k+ miles just this year...and in the mountains. so different towing needs are important to consider....

goin camping...don't you have a f-150 or did the gearing prove to be marginal?

i agree steve,
the price fluctuations right now are upsetting....
every visit to the pump is a crap shoot!

cheers
2air'

gowyn · 08-13-2006, 02:44 PM

this sounds an aweful lot like the Mac vs PC argument!

I pull an '05 19' Bambi with my 4.2L Toyoya diesel. Love it, would be nice to have more power though but I only tow 10% of the time so I prefer the 24mpg I get now empty over the 15mpg I'd get with a bigger diesel.

Pick · 08-13-2006, 02:46 PM

I just ran a spreadsheet, and came up with a surprising result.
Assumptions: 12,000 miles per year. 12 mpg Gasser, 18 mpg Diesel.
At $3 per gallon for gas, the break even cost per mile, (fuel only) is $4.50 per gallon diesel!!!! So, I guess if diesel is .25 higher than gas, it's not such a big deal after all.

At $3 for both fuels, you save $1000 a year in fuel costs.

At $3.25 for diesel savings drop to $833 per year.

Goin camping · 08-13-2006, 03:02 PM

2Air, Yep I have a F150. When all is figured out I am too close to max for my comfort. I'd rather have a larger margin between what I tow and what I can tow. That will give me plenty of haulibility for gensets, firewood, found lost treasure etc.

Pick, You have reinforced my decision with that spreadsheet. Now if I were towing 30k a year like some I'd be at the front of the line for a PSD.

Frank S · 08-13-2006, 03:32 PM

Hi Pick--What about initial engine cost premium, and maintenance in your cost comparison?--Frank S

Goin camping · 08-13-2006, 03:57 PM

Here's what I got from the local ford dealer:

Both trucks have same trim level and options. 4X4 power everything

F250 gasser $37,000

F250 diesel $42,000

Both prices rounded up to nearest thousand.

Price 10 min ago here in Los Angeles:

Reg $3.21

Diesel $3.15

Comments you numbers guys.

nickcrowhurst · 08-13-2006, 04:12 PM

I'm sure there are others like me who get quiet satisfaction from using exactly the right tool for exactly the right job. (Don't you love your SDS drill and your torque wrench?) Just as poetry is exactly the right word in exactly the right place.
The diesel produces its torque at low revs, precisely where it is needed for hauling an Airstream. I have to smile when I see the rev counter showing 1600 rpm as we reel off the miles. IIRC, the major service interval for our Cummins engine is not far off half a million miles, which should happily see me to the great salvage yard in the sky. This is more of an issue for me than the detailed assessment of cost per mile.
Nick.