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Old 11-04-2011, 06:00 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by REDNAX View Post
Running packages around town is not the same job description as for a TV that is expected to range widely in re climate & terrain, cross-country.
Agreed the ups truck is operated at the same weight as your combination under much harsher conditions. You can probably get away with a less capable vehicle for highway usage than the torture that a 200stop 200 mile daily route puts a drivetrain through.

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As to "commercial operator" I should have clarified the point for those for whom a pickup truck and a few of it's variations are the preferred vehicle. Unless someone is using Fed-Ex spec vans to pull TT's now. "Commercial operator" should also have been clarified as being also those for whom the pickup truck was more closely developed with their needs: farmers, ranchers, contractors, etc, whose use is close to that of an RV'er.
Again i agree. Since most modern vehicle use same trannnies/suspension diesel/gas (ford does i assume gm does as well?) we are looking at the engine type alone. A gas engine with a vehicle weight of 20000lbs and a gas engine with a 10,000lb vehicle and 10,000lb trailer is put through indistinguishable duty cycles. Although lesser axles/tires/brakes can be used on the combination.

But if its used mostly cruising at highway speed maybe the diesel can compete in cost per mile

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As a Suburban is just a variation of a pickup truck -- and I don't see this style vehicle used in package delivery (or similar use) -- I hardly see the point of this other introduction. Unless we include fleets from overseas where I doubt gasoline is the preferred fuel.
yes it has a different body and tougher chasis but the majority of new 500-700cube vans you see (the short ones with swing doors) are gm 6.0 with allison trans just like a suburban!


There are plenty of cases of people that have good luck with a light duty diesel pickup handling 10-20k lbs but people with more extensive experience (200,000 units instead of a handful) are outting their money in gas motors
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:02 PM   #100
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You might go on about it, but without a similar explanation of agreements between manufacturers willing to make changes and concessions to acquire the business, and governments making favorable tax deductions, direct and indirect subsidies at all vertical points of cost to ever have a valid comparison between individual RV owners and monopoly corporations. There are lobbyists to prove it.

This isn't beside the point, IT IS the point. Gas versus diesel is a sideshow at that level. Assure me, us, that none of these vehicles -- not one -- can run on E85. Because that's point, set, match.

You can probably get away with a less capable vehicle for highway usage than the torture that a 200stop 200 mile daily route puts a drivetrain through.

But it would be unlikely that a cube van would stand up to oilfield lease roads and the like at 250-miles/day 24/7/365, wouldn't it? The box would come apart carrying "packages" above a certain threshold. Define duty cycle and it all changes.

On the other hand, I'm sure some manufacturer could "make" me the best vehicle at the lowest price when I'm spec'ng 10k units for annual delivery. Thus the dilemma of the Suburban: will annual sales justify changes to suit a small crowd.

And so on.

.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:14 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by REDNAX View Post
You might go on about it, but without a similar explanation of agreements between manufacturers willing to make changes and concessions to acquire the business, and governments making favorable tax deductions, direct and indirect subsidies at all vertical points of cost to ever have a valid comparison between individual RV owners and monopoly corporations. There are lobbyists to prove it.

This isn't beside the point, IT IS the point. Gas versus diesel is a sideshow at that level. Assure me, us, that none of these vehicles -- not one -- can run on E85. Because that's point, set, match.

You can probably get away with a less capable vehicle for highway usage than the torture that a 200stop 200 mile daily route puts a drivetrain through.

But it would be unlikely that a cube van would stand up to oilfield lease roads and the like at 250-miles/day 24/7/365, wouldn't it? The box would come apart carrying "packages" above a certain threshold. Define duty cycleand it all changes.

On the other hand, I'm sure some manufacturer could "make" me the best vehicle at the lowest price when I'm spec'ng 10k units for annual delivery.

And so on.

.
You haven't seen the new "cube" vans lately have you. There's some pretty neat lightweight, composite, strong stuff out recently which WILL live in the oilfields!
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:24 PM   #102
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You haven't seen the new "cube" vans lately have you. There's some pretty neat lightweight, composite, strong stuff out recently which WILL live in the oilfields!
I've looked over vans from Europe & Japan slated to come here. The future of delivery vehicles doesn't seem to be from US manufacturers. Nor their drivetrains (small, high speed diesel) which European and Japanese companies have far more experience with. But vans are almost beside the point, one needs tow vehicles to pull trailers weighing more than most all A/S trailers before they're loaded. The 550 and 5500 series trucks from Ford and GM fit the bill for most individual commercial operators. The oil company fleet vehicles (bigger in size) are almost entirely custom built, so not applicable.

The 1T trucks -- most applicable here for this discussion -- are overpowered/oversized for A/S trailers. A 300/500 engine would overlap between the two to some extent, where an SUV-like vehicle would be good. But are there enough buyers remains the question. I think the right van, outfitted properly, is the likely future where one does not want a pickp truck. But not todays American van.

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Old 11-04-2011, 08:39 PM   #103
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Im having trouble keeping up with the non sequiturs. An oil field is very tough on a vehicle, but driveline, trans, suspension, frame etc. whether you choose gas pr diesel these components wiuld be the same. how would adding several hundred pounds up on the front axle and a 1200* dpf help when driving offroad anyway?

The reason the ups vans are relevant is they have the same motors available in the 3/4 tons (6.0,8.1,v10, and 7.3, 6.7 etc diesels) with the same transmisions driving at the same gross weight as us 10-25k lbs. only difference is instead of cruising under light load at highway speed they are run hard and constantly accel/decel.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:42 PM   #104
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I've looked over vans from Europe & Japan slated to come here. The future of delivery vehicles doesn't seem to be from US manufacturers. Nor their drivetrains (small, high speed diesel) which European and Japanese companies have far more experience with. But vans are almost beside the point, one needs tow vehicles to pull trailers weighing more than most all A/S trailers before they're loaded. The 550 and 5500 series trucks from Ford and GM fit the bill for most individual commercial operators. The oil company fleet vehicles (bigger in size) are almost entirely custom built, so not applicable.

The 1T trucks -- most applicable here for this discussion -- are overpowered/oversized for A/S trailers. A 300/500 engine would overlap between the two to some extent, where an SUV-like vehicle would be good. But are there enough buyers remains the question. I think the right van, outfitted properly, is the likely future where one does not want a pickp truck. But not todays American van.

.
Really? Are you separating chassis builders from body builders? Check out Unicell, for one of several.
I've seen roll overs that are as different as AS vs. SOB, Sure they still build square boxes as well, but there is still a market for that (when was the last time you got a spherical package at your door?)

EUROPE AIN'T ALL THAT! Sprinter (whatever name you give it) hasdn't proven to be all that...ask FedEx)
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:01 AM   #105
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There's only one Suburban I'm concerned about the future of.

You don't NEED a deezel to pull an Airstream, but then again you don't NEED an Airstream either.

Bye your leave Sir.

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Old 11-10-2011, 09:58 AM   #106
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So, let me see if I'm getting a bead on this. My ancient F150 will still tow my 4000 lb Overlander, right?

I love the truck war threads.

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Old 11-10-2011, 10:29 AM   #107
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So, let me see if I'm getting a bead on this. My ancient F150 will still tow my 4000 lb Overlander, right?

I love the truck war threads.

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Old 11-10-2011, 11:13 AM   #108
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I wish dodge made one durango xl with a cummins, I would be all over it. In the meantime my 99 2500 454 burban will do
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Old 11-11-2011, 02:47 PM   #109
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I've looked over vans from Europe & Japan slated to come here. The future of delivery vehicles doesn't seem to be from US manufacturers. Nor their drivetrains (small, high speed diesel) which European and Japanese companies have far more experience with. But vans are almost beside the point, one needs tow vehicles to pull trailers weighing more than most all A/S trailers before they're loaded. The 550 and 5500 series trucks from Ford and GM fit the bill for most individual commercial operators. The oil company fleet vehicles (bigger in size) are almost entirely custom built, so not applicable.

The 1T trucks -- most applicable here for this discussion -- are overpowered/oversized for A/S trailers. A 300/500 engine would overlap between the two to some extent, where an SUV-like vehicle would be good. But are there enough buyers remains the question. I think the right van, outfitted properly, is the likely future where one does not want a pickp truck. But not todays American van.

.
While I do not know anything about the European diesel vans, I can speak about the Japanese vans. Japanese vans are built to carry stuff inside the van, not tow stuff behind them. Towing is an afterthought for the Japanese. Just take a look at the hitch on a Lexus RX, clearly the little U shaped bend around the exhaust, which lowers the towing capacity, indicates that it was easier for the factory to simply graft a hitch on to pay lip service to the American notion of towing rather than rerouting the exhaust to accommodate a hitch with a 5,000' tow capacity rather than the current 3,500' towing capacity.

In some twenty plus years living in Tokyo, I don't recall seeing a van tow anything. Two reasons for this, first many Japanese streets are too narrow for a TV and trailer to negotiate a turn and second, the traffic in the major cities simply is to heavy to navigate with a trailer attached. Even the Japanese equivalent to our 18-wheelers are limited to which roads they can travel down and in many cases, they open up the entire side of the trailer for loading and unloading rather than backing into a dock to load through the back again due to space constraints.

I've long admired the Japanese local delivery vehicles and their small high-speed diesel engines and Hino & UD trucks are some of the best around, but overkill for an AS. Perhaps what is needed is for Toyota (Hino's parent company) and Nissan (UD's parent company) to transplant some of those smaller diesel engines into the Tundra and Titan.

Happy Airstreaming All!
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:44 PM   #110
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What's the current wisdom from Detroit on the future of the Suburban? Is it still being discontinued? Are they ever again going to have a 12,000 pound tow rating as they did in the 2002-2008? Will there be a diesel someday?
The next generation of the Suburban/Yukon XL are not going away and you will not be disappointed! I have seen a prototype of both including interiors. Engines at least at this point and time are the same displacment at 5.3 but horse power has increased, 6 speed automatics have bumped the MPGs as well. Towing for the Tahoes/Yukons 8500lbs and the Suburban/Yukon XL 8100lbs.
These are only 1/2 ton models by the way. I have not seen information on 3/4 ton models.
I think they will be 2014 models when they come out.
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:52 PM   #111
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"I've long admired the Japanese local delivery vehicles and their small high-speed diesel engines and Hino & UD trucks are some of the best around, but overkill for an AS. Perhaps what is needed is for Toyota (Hino's parent company) and Nissan (UD's parent company) to transplant some of those smaller diesel engines into the Tundra and Titan. "

They already do this! Just not for the US market. I have driven Toyota's 3.0 liter turbo-diesel in a 4WD 4-Runner in Costa Rica and it was awesome!! Smooth, quiet, powerful and quick.

Just about every manufacturer has small, capable diesels in their line-up BUT THEY DON'T OFFER THEM IN THE US Now why do think that is??????
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:07 PM   #112
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"I've long admired the Japanese local delivery vehicles and their small high-speed diesel engines and Hino & UD trucks are some of the best around, but overkill for an AS. Perhaps what is needed is for Toyota (Hino's parent company) and Nissan (UD's parent company) to transplant some of those smaller diesel engines into the Tundra and Titan. "

They already do this! Just not for the US market. I have driven Toyota's 3.0 liter turbo-diesel in a 4WD 4-Runner in Costa Rica and it was awesome!! Smooth, quiet, powerful and quick.

Just about every manufacturer has small, capable diesels in their line-up BUT THEY DON'T OFFER THEM IN THE US Now why do think that is??????
I just realized about one Milli-second after I read your post, that I had forgotten that they already do this after a fashion in Japan, where I drive a Prius, that Toyota, Nissan, and Mitsubishi offer diesel variations of their SUVs and pickups. In Japan though, pickups have not been as popular as they have been in the U.S., and the Kei-trucks (Kei truck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) are really more of a Mini-Cooper sized vehicle with a cargo bed grafted on, in fact they will almost fit in the back of long bed F150 or Silverado 1500.

As for why Detroit doesn't offer more diesels in the U.S., I suspect that it boils down to cost and probably using outdated customer preference polls to prove that customers don't want diesels. Detroit just wants to make as much money off of each sale as they can. According to the parts department at my local Ford dealer, the diesel engine in recent F250s runs about as much as a Festiva to replace, roughly 3 times as much as the gas engine in the F250. Still one would think that Detroit could figure out a way to balance the production enough to bring costs down a bit. I suspect that there are a great many more customers that would be interested in Diesels if the cost were reasonable.

Cheers,
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