Full timing: Tundra vs F250

[THEPILL]

Most hd's also have a jake,fuel brake to help.

Shane

[DMT]

I can't speak for Consumer Reports or JD Power, nor have I read their ratings report. My own experience is as follows:

02 Tundra Ltd with the 4.6l gas engine:
- 75000 miles over 7 years,
- regular maintenance and $300 for failed O2 Sensors,
- failed rear universal joint replaced under warranty.

09 Ford F150 Platinum with 5.4l gas engine:
- 40000 miles over 3 years (still under basic warranty),
- regular maintenance and,
- towed in to dealer after driveshaft failure,
- transmission "brain" failure (the PCM and solenoid valves they told me) and barely made it to the dealer in "limp home mode",
- manifold exhaust bolt failure requiring replacement.

Looking at a new vehicle, I can buy the 100,000 mile 7 year extended warranty for $2600 with a Toyota. The same warranty on a new Ford is $4300. Conclude what you want but I suspect the warranty price is heavily influenced by unbiased probability of payout based on statistics.

So, you might ask why did I buy the Ford? It is a beautiful truck, comfortable, rides excellent, and has a very sophisticated tow management system. It was also $9000 less than the comparable Toyota, at the time. When I bought the F150 in 09 there was no Airstream and no trailer of any kind in the mix, although I thought there might be in the future. I was very much predisposed to buy another Tundra, but I was not impressed with the new Tundra. My old one was built in Japan and although many interior parts were more car-like than rough-and-tumble, as a truck it was the little engine that could. The new Tundra by comparison seemed big, ungainly, and unfinished. I opted for the Ford, with it's beautiful interior and hands free SYNC system. Seduced by the dark side probably.

I have not towed much, as the AS will see its first anniversary this coming June. What I can say to date is that in my situation with two adults, two children, one dog and the incredible number of things that get brought along for this gang my 1/2 ton is at or over it's payload limit. I need to reduce the tonnage or get a bigger truck. This is just my situation. I met a couple from Texas this past summer who were full-timing with an identical AS towed by a late model Tundra. Just the two of them and one cat. He has been all over North America and was quite comfortable with his 1/2 ton.

It would be presumptuous for one "newbie" to offer another advice, especially on the choice of tow vehicle. The comments in this thread that speak to determining your needs make sense to me. I plan to stay the course for one more summer, which is about 1500 miles of towing on relatively flat roads. I will pack smarter and pack less, and I will buy a new tow vehicle in 12 months for the 2013 season. Maybe by then someone will make a super reliable 5/8 ton gas diesel electric supercharged hybrid, hopefully in white.

Don

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Mike91208

>>The brakes on a 3/4 ton pickup are substantially larger and more powerful than those on a 1/2 ton.

Apparently not when it comes to the Tundra. Here's a comparison:

2500HD Siverado

Front Brake Rotor Diam(in): 12.8
Rear Brake Rotor Diam(in): 13

F-250/350

Front (rotor diameter) 13.66"
Rear (rotor diameter) 13.39"

Toyota Tundra 1/2 TON truck:

Front Brake Rotor Diam (in): 13.9
Rear Brake Rotor Diam (in): 13.6

Not sure where you got your info, but it is wrong.
For 2012,

Silverado 2500

Front rotor: 13.8 X" 1.57"
Rear Rotor: 14.7" X 1.34"

Tundra:

Front Rotor: 13.9" X 1.26"
Rear Rotor: 13.6" X 0.71"

Didn't look up Ford. With rotors and heat it is all about mass and ventilation. Toyota 1/2 ton has SUBSTANTIALLY less mass than a 2500 Chevy.

HOWEVER, it is kind of a silly comparison to begin with. If you need a 3/4 ton, I wouldn't advise substituting a 1/2 ton any brand. They are not nor ever will be made for the same duty cycle.

Edit: I looked up F250 and I couldn't believe my eyes....but on three separate websites (Ford website does not provide thickness spec) this is what I found:

Front Rotor: 13.66" X 0.5"
Rear Rotor: 13.39" X 0.3"

Can that be true???????

[Hibby]

F250 diesel 6.4l model years 2008-2010 just an FYI.. I have a 2010 F250 for towing my Sport 22 FB (complete overkill) and my 27' boat (tandem axle). We are upgrading to a 30' Flying Cloud (ordered!).

Mileage going downhill with a tailwind on a sunny day is 16. If I'm towing the boat, about 8-9, and the Airstream allows me about 11mpg. Keep in mind this is a diesel... Mileage is no better than with my prior gas F250, although admittedly the gas engine was significantly underpowered. The poor mileage on the diesel is due to emissions controls, specificaly the diesel particulate filter.

The F250 will tow anything and seems to be bored with anything less than 7,000 lbs. The ride is also wonderful, but I have not been in a Tundra. The 2011-2012 model year for F250 uses a direct injection urea system rather than DPF and provides an increase in mileage of 2-4 mpg.

Good luck!

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Hibby

F250 diesel 6.4l model years 2008-2010 just an FYI.. I have a 2010 F250 for towing my Sport 22 FB (complete overkill) and my 27' boat (tandem axle). We are upgrading to a 30' Flying Cloud (ordered!).

Mileage going downhill with a tailwind on a sunny day is 16. If I'm towing the boat, about 8-9, and the Airstream allows me about 11mpg. Keep in mind this is a diesel... Mileage is no better than with my prior gas F250, although admittedly the gas engine was significantly underpowered. The poor mileage on the diesel is due to emissions controls, specificaly the diesel particulate filter.

The F250 will tow anything and seems to be bored with anything less than 7,000 lbs. The ride is also wonderful, but I have not been in a Tundra. The 2011-2012 model year for F250 uses a direct injection urea system rather than DPF and provides an increase in mileage of 2-4 mpg.

Good luck!

DPF and DEF (urea injection) are two separate things. The DPF is still in the Ford as well as GM. It captures soot and burns it off when it gets full.

DEF is injected into the exhaust stream to control gasses (NOx) in the exhaust. I believe you'll still find both on 11s and 12s.

[sempi2]

We have a Tundra, 2009. Love it and would get another one again

[barts]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Not sure where you got your info, but it is wrong.
For 2012,

Silverado 2500

Front rotor: 13.8 X" 1.57"
Rear Rotor: 14.7" X 1.34"

Tundra:

Front Rotor: 13.9" X 1.26"
Rear Rotor: 13.6" X 0.71"

Didn't look up Ford. With rotors and heat it is all about mass and ventilation. Toyota 1/2 ton has SUBSTANTIALLY less mass than a 2500 Chevy.

HOWEVER, it is kind of a silly comparison to begin with. If you need a 3/4 ton, I wouldn't advise substituting a 1/2 ton any brand. They are not nor ever will be made for the same duty cycle.

Edit: I looked up F250 and I couldn't believe my eyes....but on three separate websites (Ford website does not provide thickness spec) this is what I found:

Front Rotor: 13.66" X 0.5"
Rear Rotor: 13.39" X 0.3"

Can that be true???????

No. Ford lists minimum front brake rotor thickness as 1.44" (you cannot machine them thinner than this); rear is 1.1. This is on 2005 F250 Superduty; I don't have newer specs.

- Bart

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by barts

No. Ford lists minimum front brake rotor thickness as 1.44" (you cannot machine them thinner than this); rear is 1.1. This is on 2005 F250 Superduty; I don't have newer specs.

- Bart

Yeah, even if they were solid rotors, that would be THINNNNN!!!!
But I sure can't find an online reference to thickness. Maybe someone has a 2012 service manual?

[Hibby]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

DPF and DEF (urea injection) are two separate things. The DPF is still in the Ford as well as GM. It captures soot and burns it off when it gets full.

DEF is injected into the exhaust stream to control gasses (NOx) in the exhaust. I believe you'll still find both on 11s and 12s.

You are correct... My mistake. The 2008-2010 F250 models are known for poor mileage, and I should have stopped there due to my lack of technical knowledge. With higher fuel prices on diesel and mileage that's no better than a gasser, I would rethink my decision to go with a much more expensive diesel engine. I might still make the same decision based on my towing needs, but I doubt it. In Michigan, I have a concern that the winter road salt will ruin the body before I get full use out of the engine.

[Not Done]

FYI the Tundra with the TRD package has a stiffer ride than without the TRD package.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Not Done

FYI the Tundra with the TRD package has a stiffer ride than without the TRD package.

Some TRD packages come with Bilstein shocks, and more skid plates. That seems worth it. Now there are several different TRD packages and the "Rock Warrior" package has a console shifter rather than a column shifter. There's other stuff too, but those are the most important to me. The Tow package is more important. Sorting through all the options and packages is a recipe for brain damage.

Gene

[THEPILL]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Not sure where you got your info, but it is wrong.
For 2012,

Silverado 2500

Front rotor: 13.8 X" 1.57"
Rear Rotor: 14.7" X 1.34"

Tundra:

Front Rotor: 13.9" X 1.26"
Rear Rotor: 13.6" X 0.71"

Didn't look up Ford. With rotors and heat it is all about mass and ventilation. Toyota 1/2 ton has SUBSTANTIALLY less mass than a 2500 Chevy.

HOWEVER, it is kind of a silly comparison to begin with. If you need a 3/4 ton, I wouldn't advise substituting a 1/2 ton any brand. They are not nor ever will be made for the same duty cycle.

Edit: I looked up F250 and I couldn't believe my eyes....but on three separate websites (Ford website does not provide thickness spec) this is what I found:

Front Rotor: 13.66" X 0.5"
Rear Rotor: 13.39" X 0.3"

Can that be true???????

Fords thickness are as follows on the f250




Here's the front rotor for a 2008, you'll note nominal thickness at 1.49"



And this is the rear, at 1.34":



Can't find the specs for 2011, but I'm almost positive they are identical.


Shane

[Gene]

My understanding is that in an effort to reduce heat buildup in the rotors, manufacturers started making them thinner believing the heat would radiate faster. This seems logical, perhaps so logical that they didn't test the theory. I have been told it didn't work (rotors warped sooner) and they are going back to thicker rotors. But some companies don't change very fast and still may have thin rotors.

Our rotors warped last year and we replaced them with thicker ones.

Gene

[tpi]

My F250 had nice big rotors and they warped severely. The pad life was great though. The Tundra at 5K miles is fine but too new to make a call on them.

[SuperTrouper]

Originally Posted by timmaah

Maybe I should give the Excursion another look. The only reason I hadn't seriously considered them was due to their age and lack of any inventory near by.

I found this 2005 that looks interesting.
Preowned-Inventory Bob Valenti Automall Mystic CT

Far from me, but I'll be down in CT next month.

Timmah,
First of all, love your user name. I hope it's from where I think it's from.
We purchased our 27FB last year locally and started looking for a TV. The PO was nice enough to tow it to a storage spot for us. After searching truck forums, this forum and Craigslist, we decided on a 2002 Excursion. If I hadn't have spent all my bucks on the AS I could have afforded a new burb with a tow package. They tell me that a new GM/Chevy with an Allison tranny and a "tow" button will solve lots of problems. But, we couldn't spend 50K and I'm partial to Diesel. Our 7.3 excursion had 195K on the clock, two owners and had been well maintained. Price was about 14K. We needed a burb or excursion 'cause we carry 6 or 7 passengers when camping. I'm happy so far with the truck but we did have to make some modifications after a scary ride over Grant's pass last summer. Going up the hill seemed to be great until I saw a trail of coal smoke behind me (high EGTs). Coming down the hill, I shifted into 2nd to slow down and only started to freewheel and the OEM tranny gauge pegged. I got the speed down to 50 from 70 with the TV brakes and heavy on the AS brakes but they were starting to shudder and fade toward the end. Pretty scary.
After our trip we spent an additional 2K for the following improvements:
Added a pyrometer (exhaust gas temperature gauge) as the 7.3 engine will dutifully pull until it melts if you ask it to. Also added a real trans temp gauge as the OEM unit seems to be reading mystical signals from outer space. (Gauges=ISO)
Replaced the front brake rotors and pads and rear pads with great aftermarket units (PowerSlot rotors and EBC pads).
Installed a DP Tuner with 80HP Econo boost and decel tunes. The econo boost bought me 4 more MPG according to the OEM MPG meter. From 12-16 towing and 21-25 not and the acceleration and shifting points are much improved. I’ll report back on real mileage after a few trips this summer.
The decel tune locks the torque converter and closes the turbo Exhaust Backpressure Valve which provides good speed holding comin’ down the mountain as proven on a Christmas trip to LA over the Grapevine. I’ve been told that the banks brake provides better engine braking but the cost is about 5 times the cost of a DP Tuner. If I hauled for a living or full-timed, I’d consider the banks option.
Next up are new Bilstein Shocks and a Hellwig sway bar.
Excursion Cons:
The early version 6.0 (2003, 2004) engine can be troublesome (that's why I went with 7.3) The late model 6.0's and 6.4s are fine and are quieter and cleaner. Check the Diesel forums.
V10 gasser is a good engine but is a gas hog towing or not.
Steering is Vague without mods. Not scary, just vague.
Tranny is weak link according to other forums (I plan to have to replace mine with a John Wood eventually)
Engine (turbo) sits back in the chassis and is somewhat covered by cab if you plan to service unit yourself.
$100 oil changes
Terrible turning radius (leaf springs in the front)
Excursion Pros:
Balances my carbon footprint (other car is a Prius)
Navistar Diesel 7.3, like the Honey Badger, just don’t care what you throw at it.
Spacious inside. My friend said "The back seat is in a different zipcode". You can fit 8 comfortably with plenty of space for gear.
Comfortable seats, quiet ride. 10 Hour drives are comfortable.
Separate heater/AC for back.
Plenty of parts available (same as Ford 250 P/U)
Weight Capacity: GVWR 9950 Front GAW 4700 Rear GAW 5250 Trailer max 11000 Check out my post in another thread for towing setup details:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238/visited-cat-scales-the-numbers-are-in-17984-10.html
So good luck and do let us know what you decide!
Butters, er... ahhh.. I mean...Brad

[Blakradish]

Some of the reported GVW needs I see hear are ridiculous. I think you need to also decide what kind of full-timing you'll be doing. Parks? Boon-docking? Both?
The whole point of simplifying is to simplify. Wardrobe, tools, food, etc. are all part of that. You have water tanks on your trailer I assume, How much water do you need? Everyplace has water these days, you'll learn that the pre-full timing survivalist feeling will leave when you have to start packing all of that junk every time you move (i hope).
I basically rent my clothes, summer comes I go to thrift shops and buy my summer wardrobe, then I go to the next place in fall, donate those, buy cool weather clothes etc. I have gone 3 years (i am single though) without exceeding my 4500# weight (trailer and payload) self imposed limit.
It's easier to pack less than to haul more.
Oh, and definitely 4WD if you don't lots of beach camping options, mountains and muddy boon-docking spots are out.

Good Luck,
Blake
'63 Avion H-24
2003 Toyota Tundra (4.7L)

[SuperTrouper]

Originally Posted by Blakradish

Oh, and definitely 4WD if you don't lots of beach camping options, mountains and muddy boon-docking spots are out.

X2 - Brad

[JimGolden]

Perry is outright wrong.

If you buy a pre 2004 Ford Excursion, you better check the plug torque every oil change (aka 3000 miles), not annually.

Mine had 36,348 miles on it when it blew. I talked to one poor guy who'd had his heads replaced under warranty 7 times. When it blew an eighth, he was past 36,000 miles and Ford told him to "get lost."

Oh, by the way, I had also bought a 7 year 100,000 mile extended powertrain warranty on my Excursion. However, they had some fine print in there that said "only damage caused by the failure of an internally lubricated part is covered..." Well guess what; the head itself was faulty; no piston flew off a rod and broke the head....it was the head itself. Even though I was only 348 miles beyond the bumper to bumper warranty but well within the extended powertrain warranty, Ford told me to pound sand.

The only fix is to install ten Timesert head inserts (infinitely better than a helicoil...which is still better than Ford's original design). The inserts are only $8 each, but the repair kit cost $370 (in 2005). I have one of these kits, so if your Triton blows a plug and you want it fixed right, give me a call.

Do not even consider an Excursion if it's older than an '04. The only exception would be if it had a Powerstroke diesel.

[perryg114]

Well my 2000 Excursion has over 100K on it and the original plugs were still in it when I bought it a couple years ago at 94k. Maybe another good reason to never buy anything new. Let the first owner deal with all the crap. A friend has a 2001 Excursion with about the same miliage on it and he has had no problems. Many times dealers don't know what they heck they are doing as well as mechanics in general and anyone in the service industry. I do everything myself for a reason. The few times I have had someone else do work, they screwed it up and they charged me for it. I can screw stuff up and it is free. The newer V10's have problems also with plugs breaking when you try to remove them. I am sorry you had a bad experience.

Perry

[r carl]

Originally Posted by perryg114

Well my 2000 Excursion has over 100K on it and the original plugs were still in it when I bought it a couple years ago at 94k. Maybe another good reason to never buy anything new. Let the first owner deal with all the crap. A friend has a 2001 Excursion with about the same miliage on it and he has had no problems. Many times dealers don't know what they heck they are doing as well as mechanics in general and anyone in the service industry. I do everything myself for a reason. The few times I have had someone else do work, they screwed it up and they charged me for it. I can screw stuff up and it is free. The newer V10's have problems also with plugs breaking when you try to remove them. I am sorry you had a bad experience.

Perry

No excuse for what ford did here Perry. Snap On even made a repair kit to fix the ford heads. 3/8" of aluminum threads is not enough, hell a briggs and stratton engine has more than that! Problems usually started when you replaced the plugs for the first time at 100k, quite convenient for ford, out of warranty and money for the dealers.