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Old 09-23-2011, 12:25 PM   #183
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Good try Bill. The context is gas engines.

Gene
Another option that the Big 3 have ignored, and no other brands are bringing to our shores, is a SMALL diesel engine. Even our 3/4 ton trucks could do with a much lower-displacement engine with modern diesel technology, but with the numbers battle between the manufacturers it hasn't made sense to design a practical diesel around 300 hp/450 lb-ft at perhaps 4 liters in a 6-cyl or even a counterbalanced long-stroke 4-cyl configuration. Especially with the current crop of high-ratio-spread 6-speed autos that can stand up to torque, this would be a realistic range for most uses.

That engine could be light enough to be practical in a big half-ton, and could be the low-end diesel for the 250/2500 trucks, and the 800-lb-ft behemoths could be the reason for people with serious towing needs to step up to the 350/3500 lines. It would likely get better fuel mileage than the current big-cube diesels and provide more towing power than 90% of the market needs, but it's hard to sell practicality. Jim Bob goes out and buys a 450-lb-ft diesel to pull his 7000-lb boat and all his buddies laugh at his "girlie truck with a 4-cyl" rather than admit to themselves that they could do everything they need with that truck and get 20% better mileage.

I've gone WAY off the original topic though.
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Old 09-23-2011, 12:27 PM   #184
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Why don't we just build our own.....good start!

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Old 09-23-2011, 01:04 PM   #185
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DKB', a small diesel is one approach, but has the same same cost comparisons the larger ones have with gas.

Bob's natural gas engine suggestion would be good if we could find the stuff readily. I saw a pump at a truck stop near SLC last week and that's about the only place you'll see them—in and near big cities.

No doubt the EcoBoost may turn out fine, or not—time is necessary, or someone willing to tow 100,000 miles/year and let us know how that worked out. I won't be buying another truck any time soon either with the state of the economy and stock market, but even if I'd like to, until gas mileage is improved, it makes little sense to buy a new truck now.

I hope someone is designing my ideal truck ("I'd want more payload in a half ton (maybe a 5/8 ton) with softer ride than a 3/4 ton, lots of torque, great gas mileage, low price, reliability, great brakes, full tow package, bullet proof engine and rest of drive train plus excellent brakes. For those with heavier trailers, a 3/4 ton model."). Let us know what is is like and when it will be available.

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Old 09-23-2011, 01:31 PM   #186
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If I were going to make a wild guess, I'd guess the fact that the F150 is one of the top-selling vehicles in the US, the F150 is thirsty, lots of people are out of work and can't afford their payment and/or fuel bill, and lots of people who own pickups in the US don't have any actual practical need for a truck would all tend to increase the number of them that turn up on used lots when incomes drop and fuel prices rise.
Could be any number of things. These were all 2011 EBs TRADED in for new competitive make trucks at the same new car dealer????? This is what baffles me.
Could be:
People who trade every year and just like to switch around brands;
Believed (erroneously) that the V6 EB was the complete answer to big block V8s and under bought for their needs. These were in big time farm country;
Maybe circumstances changed and they needed 3/4 tons.

ETC, Etc.

May be a completely strange flukey coincidence and has nothing to do with the performance of EBs. Just really strange to see a slug of them like that, all at the same time.
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Old 09-23-2011, 01:55 PM   #187
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@dznfog: that is a very different statement than the one to which I initially responded. We've gone from lots of recent F150s on used lots (plural) to a group of 2011 EcoBoosts traded in to one new dealer.

(edited, changed "them" to "2011 EcoBoosts")
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Old 09-23-2011, 02:06 PM   #188
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@dznfog: that is a very different statement than the one to which I initially responded. We've gone from lots of recent F150s on used lots (plural) to a group of 2011 EcoBoosts traded in to one new dealer.

(edited, changed "them" to "2011 EcoBoosts")
My bad, should've been more clear in the first post. I figgered since it was an EB thread, it was assumed. Sorry.

EDIT: The plural statement refers to seeing some at other new car dealer's used car lots, but not in any unusual numbers. You always see onesies and twosies in any car or truck line. I only focus on the new car dealer's used car lots for one to two year old inventory. The independents can procure from so many wholesale sources, it would be hard to draw any conclusions. New car dealers one or two year old used inventory mostly come from trades (within franchised brand or cross mfr trades), or from mfr auctions (closed to independents and cross mfr dealers) where only the like franchised new car dealers can purchase. These units are typically "program cars", or rental company returns, or mfr finance company repos and off leases.
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Old 09-23-2011, 06:06 PM   #189
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The F150 is the largest selling vehicle in North America. It's second only to the Toyota Corolla as the best selling vehicle in history. That may have something to do with it.

I actually got to look at one of the EB's up close a few days ago. First thing that came mind was that this rascal is HUGE. Seemed to be a very large vehicle. If you can 20mpg in that thing, I'm impressed.

By the way, I own 4 Fords and nothing else. Wish I could afford to trade in my '98 F150 (that tows my 'Stream quite nicely) for something newer.

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Old 09-23-2011, 06:29 PM   #190
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Jim,


I own 1 Ford, 1 Chevrolet, 1 Buick, and refuse to drive anything else....almost.

Sorry couldn't resist.


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Old 09-23-2011, 06:36 PM   #191
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What is that '50-something restoration you have? One cool ride, Bob. Did you do the resto? Probably a really stupid question now that I think about it.

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Old 09-23-2011, 07:34 PM   #192
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Good try Bill. The context is gas engines.

Gene
Yes...let's just dismiss that elephant in the corner...!

(After all she smokes...and smells bad?! And good Lord..she just hates the cold weather...)
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:33 PM   #193
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What is that '50-something restoration you have? One cool ride, Bob. Did you do the resto? Probably a really stupid question now that I think about it.

Jim
1953 Ford Victoria

No Jim, I didn't do the restoration, it's never been restored, 100% original.
It was Sandra's Grandmother's, car bought new in 1953.
We have been the custodians since 1976.
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:45 AM   #194
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1953 Ford Victoria

No Jim, I didn't do the restoration, it's never been restored, 100% original.
It was Sandra's Grandmother's, car bought new in 1953.
We have been the custodians since 1976.
Hi Robert...in the "small world" category.

I recently stopped at the local Dairy Queen with my wife to look at a very nice old Ford...hoping it was a '54...which was my first car. Turns out it was a '53 Ford Victoria...just like yours but with colors reversed. Story gets more similar since the owner had a picture of he and his brother (also along for the ride) in front of his dad's '53 Victoria...when they were about 8-10 years old.

This owner had to search for years to find a nice one...not his dad's actual car.

Still wish it were a '54. Mine was a 2 dr Crestline (I think?)...w/6cyl and overdrive. Of course us '54 guys got overhead valves...a "modern" invention!

Thanks for the pictures...TomR

P.S. I should add...amazing car in original condition...those Fords were very inclined to rust TomR
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Old 09-24-2011, 08:29 AM   #195
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Tom,

After getting the car in 1976, while doing the first real "detail" it probably ever had, I noticed that the rear ash trays were filled with Double Bubble, Tootsie Roll wrapper's and Lolly Pop sticks.
When I told Sandy what I had found she insisted I leave them there.

Why?
Well it turn's out that she and her siblings were responsible for stuffing them in there 20 years earlier . Gram would toss them back whenever the little rascals got rowdy.

Still there 35 years later, and folks love the story at the Car Shows.

AS's are great.....but "Bertha" is still our First Love.

Bob
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:56 AM   #196
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I'd want more payload in a half ton (maybe a 5/8 ton) with softer ride than a 3/4 ton, lots of torque, great gas mileage, low price, reliability, . . full tow package, bullet proof . . drive train[,] plus excellent brakes. For those with heavier trailers, a 3/4 ton model.

This is a good description of the generic default TV on RV boards. Doesn't mean, though, that it isn't assumption-riddled.

The insistence on brand-new is the "real" problem expressed. There's no getting around the fact that drivetrain complexity has increased, and that it will continue. Which makes TV choice by type more important than brand (or spec). A sedan to pull an A/S covers many if not most as well or better for the occasional traveler (versus many full-timers).

Plenty of used trucks are available for those wanting one -- with known problems & fixes -- and can be made to meet the above mark with solid aftermarket suppliers wares as appropriate. The description above matches my own truck, just short of adding an air suspension rear.

Depreciation + finance charges kill any idea of "economy"; moot for those who trade frequently. I'd re-shuffle the deck given this consideration.

The Eco-Boost will likely work out fine for those who actually need a truck and already are uncomfortable when a vehicle reaches, say, 100k-miles (or warranty end).

I might be prone to choose a vehicle based as much on the local servicing dealer reputation as much as by brand. "Love the truck, hate the service" kicks my tail much harder than the miniscule fuel mileage differences (assuming again the TV is actually well-chosen) between my version of "competing choices". Which tends to be more emotional than not (justifications), thus the following:

Some simple tools are available to sort the wheat from the chaff: CPM calculators (cents-per-mile) delineating costs over a planned time & miles schedule. The easiest to use (and read the definitions) is the Edmunds True Cost to Own page. Make comparisons of vehicle types, not just brand-to-brand. First know how long, and how far one will take a TV.

Use a 40% deduction for average towing mpg from highway mpg to alter the calculator on your own spreadsheet (if wanted). This figure (no lower than 30%) is consistent from 1971 TL reviews to 2010 TL reviews. (One can do better -- with the understanding that it is not vehicles that get poor mileage, but drivers that do. And can improve).

One will find that fuel mileage matters only when depreciation and finance charges are removed (and the depreciation curve has lessened). This assumes a far longer time & miles than the TCO calculator gives. Once fixed expenses are reduced, then "problems" of reliability, fuel mileage, component life, etc, take on the meaning we give them.

In other words, pay cash for a 3-year old TV that is at least one year past major design changes. And then figure fuel at $6/gl. Run these assumptions using the repair numbers increasing 10% annually past the Edmunds TCO ending (and check depreciation on KBB). Do the analysis and one will find that "fuel economy" finally achieves significance for worsening fuel prices. Even steady ones. But not before.

.
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