ford diesel vs chevy d/a

[2airishuman]

hi guys

did the full shopping exercise in april...drove 'em all....several times, read everything from consumer reports and crash rating to all the trade truck magazines.....yeeeee haaaaaaaa!

opted for the ford 4x4 sd f-250 sc lb psd, with tc package....don't ya just love all of them initials.....

first the gm is an oooooooooooold design. yes it has indy front suspension but the nicest/most unique item....the q steer, was not to be found and is now history...the allison tranny is an alli in name only...it is not the allison found in the big trucks...lots of info on this on the bowtie boards....i know it's still nice but it ain't a real allison kids.....

the ram is cutting edge style but build and drivetrain still aren't ready for prime time.....

the ford is a tow rig.....like porky has said, they got the mirrors right....and that's important. the powerstroke is a beast even at 6l and at 15kmiles in the last 4 months it's doin' fine on mpg......and actually the tranny is a 6 speed but uses 2 different 5 speed programs depending on drivetrain (1,2,3,4,6 or 1,2,3,5,6) as i understand it...

and the power stroke board on yahoo is the best auto tech site i have ever used.......thank you mr. ledger for answering questions like a real master mechanic....his web site (diesel dog) also is a great tech site with all of the recall/tuning and service info anyone could want......and faster than the dealers have it....

anyway back to the truck.....

the tc package is the deal maker..... with a top notch brake controller working from the master cylinder and tranny tow/haul programing and real gear holding on downhills and those mirrors.....well it's exactly what anyone towing a load needs and is "factory" equipment.....and a modest priced option package as well.

until the others design/package a towing setup for their midsize trucks....ford really has'em.....i am really amazed that gm and dodge didn't get'er done for the 06 models....

i know airsteams and gms go together like pb and j but the ford is real meat and potatoes for towing (how da ya like all them metaphors)

by the way this is my first american built ride in over 30 years....so i have no loyalty for any of the brands......till now.

cheers
2air'

[StingrayL82]

2airishuman,


Very well written, but I'm not sure I'm tracking with what you wrote. My father-in-law had a new 2001 2500HD with the 8.1L gas engine and the Allison 5-speed....that tranny is darn near bulletproof. He towed my 1972 Suburban (402cid, TH400 and one heavy mutha) on a flatbed trailer, from Colorado Springs to Monterey, CA. He averaged 75MPH up and downhill. The truck never knew the Suburban was behind it.

I took a look at the Fords for a really long time. I'll admit, that inline brake controller is a great idea, but what I don't like is the fact that....well, that it's built in. I don't know if it's that I'm stuck in my ways, but I like the idea of being able to take my controller out of one truck and plugging it into my other truck (moot point now, since I only have one vehicle). Plus, what happens when (and I do mean when) the thing decides to stop working, AND your truck is out of warranty? How much is the replacement controller going to cost? These are questions which made me resist buying Ford.

And finally we get to Dodge. I'm not sure what you mean by "build and drivetrain aren't ready for primetime". That Cummins Turbo Diesel of mine has the most torque and horsepower...350HP and 610lb/ft, and I'm pretty sure that the body will fall apart, before the motor will. Okay, I'll concede that the tranny leaves a bit to be desired, but if what the techs at my dealership tell me is true, that 48RE will have a long life of towing, provided I take care of it, per manufacturer's recommendations.

In my travels across the U.S. (and I've done it more than I care to remember for the Army), I've seen Fords, GM's and Dodges towing, but I couldn't say for sure that I've seen one more than the other. I think what it comes down to is personal preference. Although my personal preference is GM, the reliability of the Dodge, coupled with the price tag and other bennies I got with the truck, ultimately made my decision for me. I ask you this, if you had your choice between the three trucks, and the Ford was $47,000, the GMC Sierra was $43,500 and the Dodge was $35,000, and you had pretty much the same options in each vehicle, which would you choose? The choice was obvious for me.

Frederic

[Iver]

FYI: My 05 PS Excursion with tow package went for $40K a month ago ... the mirrors might be worth $5K over the Dodge.

[Silvertwinkie]

My take is that Dodge, though great new fresh sheet metal, but has very poor transmissions. A lot of smoke and mirrors. I mean there is a reason Dodge is #3. A number of folks here at one point talked about their trans eating itself.

In the end, if you stick with Ford or GM, you won't be sorry. My pref is and always has been GM. Not that the folks at GM are angels, they clearly are not, but regardless of dated equipment, things like 350, Duramax, posi....all GM....like Lee Iacocca said, "Lead follow or get out of the way". Clearly, GM and Ford care about what's under the sheet metal and to me, that's what counts, not the fluffy stuff....

[Janets Husband]

I had a talk earlier this year with Campcollector about this very subject and he came up with a great idea. A Cummings engine attached to an Allison trany in a Ford chassis. Not a bad idea in my book.
Well guess what I heard the other day? Dodge just bought the rights to the Allison trany used in the Duramax, a 5 speed Allison matched to the Cummings engine coming in late 2006.
Chevy has outfitted the new Duramax with a newer 6 speed Allison.
Still in the Dodge body but we're getting there.

[StingrayL82]

Gary,


One thing I found out from one of the techs at my dealership is that Dodge has always owned a portion of Allison, just not the right portion allowing them to use the trannys.

Smoke and mirrors, though Twinkie, I disagree. From what the techs say, Dodge re-engineered the 48RE to withstand the torque from the Cummins. I'll let you know, when I put it through its paces. I've got the 7yr/100,000mile bumper to bumper warranty, so believe me if there's a chance that it'll go, I'll make it go while it's under warranty! By the way, I have the "Mickey Mouse" tow mirrors, and they ROCK!

Frederic

[Steve Heywood]

Originally Posted by the ponz

I own a 2001 Chevy crew cab duramax with an alison transmission. I purchased it used last year. I must say it is the nicest truck I've ever owned. It has pulled/hauled whatever I have needed. I now no longer need a pickup truck, so I am thinking of trading it for a 3/4 ton panel truck, that being either a suburban 6.0/3.73 rear end or a Ford Excursion 6.0 or 7.3 diesel. I know very little about the Fords. How do the Ford transmissions compare to the Alison? Is there an advantage between the 7.3 and 6.0 Ford diesels?

I will be pulling a 31' sovereign along with a wife, two kids, a 50# dog and 2000# of cargo distrbuted between the truck and trailer.

I am not soliciting Ford or Chevy bashing, simply an honest education.

Thanks

jim

You will be many dollars ahead if you buy a camper shell for your current truck.

You'd be disappointed with the performance of any current gas Suburban (compared to a diesel) unless it has the 8.1L. The GM 6.0L is a good engine but my 6.0L PSD has more torque at 1,000 RPM than a GM 6.0 gas V8 will ever have.

The 5-speed Ford automatic is a great transmission. Prior to this truck I would not own a Ford diesel with an automatic. I have no experience with the Allison used in the GM trucks.

The 6.0L PSD earned it's reputation as a fuel hog because of how much power it produces and how easy it is to access the power. My best mileage so far (my truck has 13,500 miles on it) has been 17.8 empty and a worst of 10.0 towing. I get 13.5-14 MPG towing on level ground @ 60 MPH and manage 12.5-13 while towing in the mountains @ 65 MPH.

[2airishuman]

hi stingrayl32 and others

while i hadn't owned a big 3 vehicle since my '60s nova, i was pleasantly surprised by how well they all are doing with the trucks. this is partly because so many folks buy these trucks and partly because the profit margin is high (very close to the suvs) and MAINLY because the big three are now mostly 'assembly plants' as apposed to manufacturers.....by this i mean they contract for the big pieces from others with some "brand" loyalty and reputation for quality; and then they do the assembly and sheet metal.....so it they have great engines and trannies and axles and so on....they can build a pretty good truck....

i did't say the tranny in the gms wasn't durable and well made; i've heard lots of great reports of just how good it is........just that it's not an allison from the same plants and bits as the real allisons.....sort of like schwinn bikes made now are schwinn in name only, from asia and so on.

why doesn't gm call it an izuzu diesel with an allison tranny. izuzu has been makin diesels a long time and has a good rep worldwide......? it's likely because izuzu doesn't sound as american or have the rep of allison stateside. it's just funny to me how the big makers utilize selectively the subcontractors brands in their products....doubt we will ever see a new "ford firestone" but we do have a new "ford 500"....

yep when the controller fails we will have service issues, but ford has sold more of these controllers wrapped in a truck than all the other brake controller makers combined. so service for these or upgrades will be readily available and not too pricey....in fact there is already a factory kit to retro the controller in 04s or 05 that didn't have it originally. i suspect there will even be aftermarket 'improvements' by vendors who realize how many of these gadgets ford has sold....

as for the dodge, not being ready for primetime was my way of saying the body, interior and other obvious user interfaces, just seem of lesser quality and fit.....some parts are very nice like the shinny bug deflector and wheels, but most of the interior trim, fabric and body panels just seem to be a notch below the gm/fords.

as for what i'd buy based on price.....my fully decked out (49k) ford was closer to 40k....they were doin' the employee pricing way back...you just had to negotiate for it.....so the gap between the ford and dodge is narrowed, especially since the mirrors and brake controller and so so still have to be added to the dodge...

but THE truck model that would be great for us trailer pullers is the dodge "contractors" model...it's the big diesel with a built in 12kilowatt generator and an assortment of plugs.....pretty cool.

now if they'd just get some big mirrors and the towcommand bits...

cheers
2air'

[Pick]

They don't call it an Isuzu diesel because it is a DURAMAX. Made by Duramax, a joint venture between General Motors and Isuzu. The Duramax plant is in Moraine, Ohio.

The Allison 1000 is a downgraded version of the Allison 2000 and 3000 from what I have read. It contains about 1/3rd the parts of a 4L80E. I have seen the clutches, they are quite beefy.

[0CarbTwinkie]

I have been running a 1993 Chevy k1500 Extened Cab Stepside since new.
It has a Manual Transmission and I had to order the truck from the factory.
This has been a most reliable machine for me (I am now at 304,000km and replaced the Clutch for the first time at 260,000km)..
When I ordered it I put the top of the line interior into it.
Cloth Reclining Bucket seats, Cruise, Stereo etc, I would have liked leather and electric mirrors and power heated seats but that came a year and a half later.

This year we decided to get into a new truck (Diesel for the farm). Again I wanted the Manual Transmission and I knew I would have to order.
GM will not offer the top of the line interior with the Manual because there is a plastic Console that is placed on the tranmission hump, and that would be where the stick comes out of the floor.

Went with the Ford F250 PSD. Ford still allows the Lariat interior with the Standard. I keep my vehicles till they die and this truck will be scheduled to be replaced in 12 years. Towing the A/S has been no problem in this truck, I have only had to shift out of 6th while running on open hilly roads twice, the power boost works great. On the old chevy I would have been shifting many more times.

[StingrayL82]

2airishuman,

Man, I really like to read your posts...they are well thought out and well written. I can't say that I noticed that the interior of the Dodge lacked the quality of the GMC or the Ford....I looked at all three before buying my Ram, but I will agree with the idea that the interior is not put together ergonomically, but only for the new 06 Ram....it is different than my 05...for whatever reason they decided to mess with the cupholders again, the fatal flaw in my old 97.

Frederic

[2airishuman]

"what’s in a name?
that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

hi folks

well pick, you couldn't be a better example of how marketing influences beliefs or facts....yes gm and isuzu are partners but it's a financial partnership...

gm provided the $ and their parameters/needs and isuzu provided every single bit of design, technology, build experience and so on, even the plant design was based on other isuzu plants worldwide...... duramax is just a marketing word.....and a very effective one....gm and isuzu have had a relationship back for 40plus years....and isuzu is a/the world leader in diesel production and technology.....i'm not suggesting the dmax isn't a fine engine; it is....and it's assembled in ohio from bits made world wide....like ohio hondas and ohio airstreams....

it's a bit like acura and lexus which are "brands" only here. while the same models exist worldwide as hondas and toyotas.....

or the van used to make airstream interstates that carries the dodge, mercedes and freightliner brand names....just pick the one that means value for you.

please google the terms "isuzu duramax diesel" and you can get most of the details....but i've followed this issue from an investment/financial perspective for years. it's an isuzu plant with dmax on the door....and that's not a bad thing. isuzu makes fine powerplants.

the best thing gm has done in diesel development was let someone else develop and build their diesels....and then do marketing in such a manner as to foster the "made in usa" pride you display.....hey it's a great engine.....

30% huh? "downgraded" version is the best description i've read.....it really is a son of allison.......

my point in the first post and this final post is that we are highly influenced by branding names and understand less about actual product origins....

thats
why i drive a international harvester powerstroke instead of a cummins diesel or isuzu duramax......

and sometimes eat hagen daz ice cream.......

cheers all
2air'

[Pick]

Actually, I would have been more inclined to buy my diesel powered GMC pickup, if it had an Isuzu branded, Kubota or Yanmar diesel engine in it. I know the Japanese know how to build diesels. If it had been a GM exclusive design or even a Caterpillar, I would have shyed away from it. Probably would have bought a Dodge with a Cummins in it.
I have a Ford Powerstroke extended cab dually, that I am driving here, while I am helping out in Mississippi. It is snappy, but I just don't like the feel of Fords. I likes my GMC..!

[CanoeStream]

2airishuman and others with new Fords? If you have a sudden trailer control problem, how do you activate the integral brake controller alone if you just want to use the trailer brakes? My Prodigy has a simple lever that is very accessible where mounted and provides incremental control -- as much as I wish. Please compare that to your built-in brake controller -- at least I can see on Ford's website where it is mounted.

Thanks!

[cosmotini]

Canoe Stream,The Tow Command controller has a lever similar to a prodigy or other add-on controllers.You can activate the trailer's brakes by activating the lever.Dennis

[Minnie's Mate]

Originally Posted by Canoe stream

2airishuman and others with new Fords? If you have a sudden trailer control problem, how do you activate the integral brake controller alone if you just want to use the trailer brakes? My Prodigy has a simple lever that is very accessible where mounted and provides incremental control -- as much as I wish. Please compare that to your built-in brake controller -- at least I can see on Ford's website where it is mounted.

Thanks!

I have a '05 F-250 PS Diesel Supercrew with the TC and 3.73 rear-end; the brake controler is located just below the center of the dash board. There is an adjustment button for more/less braking when making the normal adjustment. Just to the left are two black levers: one stationary and one operable. If you need one-time additional braking or braking for trailer only, you squeeze the levers together. This will manually apply the trailer brakes only. So far I haven't needed to use this feature so I assume this is all that is needed.

BTW, I have put just over 4k miles on mine since I bought it in April...before all the employee discount pricing. I haven't got my Airestream yet so I haven't had the chance to tow with it. Driving it strickly locally around town I get 16.2 mpg avg. and 19.6 mpg avg combined. The ride is firm as you would expect from a 3/4 ton truck. It drives great for a truck as large as it is (short bed). But like an Excursion, parking at Wally-World requires at least one back up and realignment to get into a modern parking space if there is a car parked on either side. From what I have been told, the turning radius was improved as part of the '05's mild re-design. Major ground up re-design is coming in '07. I like the current body and didn't want to wait.

[2airishuman]

hi canoe steam and others

as my kindred power strokers' have noted, the lever is similar in design to most aftermarket brands. it'd dash location is close to the spot many folks place choose too. for my short arms it's a bit of a reach....sort of a lean from the hips while reaching. of course with the aftermarket units more options for location (like right vs left) but most i've seen are in this general area.

attached is a photo.

during the brake setup phase the lever is used to dial in the "boost".

i too did about 4000 break in miles before towing and have towed 10-12,000 since without readjusting. i try to use the brake lever once each trip....just for assurance that it still grabs. works very quickly and the amount of trailer braking is proportional to how far the lever is moved...like many other systems.....but i do think it's quicker to engage.


my preference (i think) would be to have the manual activation on/under the steering wheel where most other dash functions are located. this would make for quicker/more intuitive application.....as with high beams, wipers, cruise control and so on..... also it would be more obvious if the trailer brake 'malfunction warning light' was in the main idiot cluster....since looking down to the current location isn't a natural process.....

one of the unusual (or odd) features of the tc brake system is that trailer braking effort is speed proportional. at slower speeds less brake is applied...above 40 or so, full power is achieved.

it's also unusual for factory options to be nicer, have better features/design than aftermarket options.....but this system will prompt the others to upgrade their products....and that will be good for all.

cheers
2air'