F-150 Diesel? Not so fast!

[ITSNO60]

Originally Posted by Rasengan

what would be a good TV if one wanted to focus on fuel efficiency while towing, say, a 23 or 25?

If you are only focusing on fuel efficiency while towing you may as well get a 3/4 tom diesel, the mileage will be very similar or better than towing with a smaller vehicle. In my opinion there is no reason to go small on a dedicated tow vehicle, the smaller vehicle will work hard and always be close to, if not over it's limits, and it will suck down fuel because it is always working full tilt.

Now if the vehicle will be used solo more than it will be used towing then it would pay to look for something that is up to the job but a better fit for solo driving as well, which might be a 1/2 ton or other vehicle. Just have to be careful as it is easier to exceed limits than most realize.

[mojo]

Originally Posted by DKB_SATX

That is off-topic for this thread, which is focused on the 3-liter Power Stroke engine.

I see different truck brands, engines and fuel types mentioned throughout this thread. What's your issue?

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by mojo

I see different truck brands, engines and fuel types mentioned throughout this thread. What's your issue?

The thread has already drifted far enough that many of the posts aren't at all useful to someone looking for info about the 3.0 Power Stroke and the 5.0 vs Ecoboost thing has already been done to death a dozen times. Rehashing it here would be counterproductive. It wasn't even "5.0 vs 3.0 Power Stroke."

[sbowman]

Originally Posted by DKB_SATX

The thread has already drifted far enough that many of the posts aren't at all useful to someone looking for info about the 3.0 Power Stroke and the 5.0 vs Ecoboost thing has already been done to death a dozen times. Rehashing it here would be counterproductive. It wasn't even "5.0 vs 3.0 Power Stroke."

I could be wrong, however what thread on TV's has not gone off reservation?



Safe Travels and Best regards...........

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by sbowman

I could be wrong, however what thread on TV's has not gone off reservation?



Safe Travels and Best regards...........

"Because it's always been done poorly in the past" is not a good reason to do something poorly yet again.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by ThreeBoys

2018 Ford F-150 V8 or 3.5L Ecoboost to pull a 25’ International? And go!

Go? Where are we going?

[gypsydad]

One thing I mentioned earlier about selecting your TV for the AS of choice. Many of us have bought multiple AS's and of course TV's. The TV is also for many of us, a daily driver. That being said, I went thru 2 new Tahoe's, before getting a new F150 EB in 2012. I went thru 2 more 25' AS's with that F150 over 5 years and it was a great daily driver. Tahoe was too, but did not offer 6.2 and 10 speed at the time, and also, I wanted to carry more cargo, like generator, gas, fire wood, charcoal bbq grill, canoe, etc. The F150 PU just made more sense. If you think your going to be happy with a 23 or 25, and the TV your looking at can handle, go for it....if you think you might move up, consider your investment (s) up front. Better to have capability for towing larger then limiting yourself because you got an expensive TV without thinking a little outside the box....my 2 cents...worth just that.

[VernDiesel]

IMO Ford needs to expand the f150 diesel offerings to XLT etc and get more competitive on pricing but I suspect they will.

F150 diesel is a nitch truck 5 to 10% 1/2 tons sales says Ford (still a lot of trucks) to keep from bleeding sales to Ram & GM small diesels.
Its for people who prioritize this and are willing to pay a little extra to get it;

Fuel economy - 30 HWY is realistic where 20 is more realistic for a gas truck.
Towing efficiency - 15 avg at 65 with AS where a gas would get 10.
Diesel longevity - Had 370k towing with my 3.0 diesel before any motor issues. Many gassers are already in the boneyard at this point.
Enjoyable quiet more effortless towing - The EB has this also but all the NA gassers are going to gear swap & scream up grades and on rolling hills.
Either buys it first and foremost as an efficient comfortable daily driver and secondarily as tow vehicle or uses it as more of a dedicated tow vehicle but for moderate half ton appropriate loads.

Measurably more mileage, power, & the advantage of a turbo brake with a simple tune. 285HP & 515TQ enough TQ to move a 1/2 ton & AS from a traffic light with traffic or up a grade and enough HP to be fast enough for adequate passing power on the interstate.

I use a 3.0 diesel to efficiently transport Airstreams for the Mfg from plant to dealerships nationwide. Many Ohio to west coast with other TTs boats & sometimes AS's coming back. To the tune of 450k miles now. I also use it to safely take my family camping towing up to an 8k wet TT (travel trailer). IMO Half tons work quite well through the 27' floorplan and ok on 30 if weight & speed is kept in check and a person takes the time to properly set it up for safety & stability on a truck stop CAT scale. CAT scales weigh steer, drive, & TT axles separately and at the same time in order to set your axle & tongue weights to stay within Mfg limits and to get the ever important tongue weight in zone.

Rasengan Some of these posters are consistently bias toward their TV (tow vehicle) choice and seem narrative or agenda driven against other choices leaving honest objectivity behind. You end up with half truths to sift through. Also many are willfully blind about weight distribution how it works and what it does. While other posters on this forum are incredibly helpful and knowledgeable.

You asked if payload could be tweaked with a WDH. A WDH with weight redistribution in your TT & TV can pretty dramatically change your tongue weight which in turn changes your GVW or "payload". It does not just transfer weight from the drive axle to the steer axle but the amount of weight being put on the truck or back to the TT axles. While exceeding GVWR may be the easiest thing to do getting your axle and TW (tongue weight) percentage in Mfg spec is the most important with respects to the stability and safety of your towing rig. By adjusting it you also see how you can stay within the GVWR.

Example 6k TV 8k TT (heavier than your looking at)

10% TW equals 6,800 on TV axles and 7,200 on TT axles.
15% TW equals 7,200 on TV axles and 6,800 on TT axles. (no tale wagging this dog)

On my truck I would set up toward this;

steer 3,200 drive 3,800 (both in Mfg spec) IE 12.5% or 1,000 TW

This would restore my unloaded steer weight to keep max steer & braking traction and stay within Mfg spec. On the drive axle it would keep weight above the steer weight and within Mfg spec to retain best COG and drive traction especially on a downhill curve where the tongue is pushing it out of the curve. AT 12.5% TW even a box TT would resist sway from reasonable speed wind gusts & semi bowave. Making for a very safe stable tow. Additionally this would put 7,000 on my TV axles and only 7,000 on TT axles to minimize any possibility of the tale wagging the dog. This would be my priority over the being 50 pounds over my GVWR or payload as some say.

Naturally you can adjust to get within GVWR. Point is its last on the stability safety priories list not first. More importantly use the scales. It doesn't have to be done every year just once to get your basic setup right. Too many people let the "professionals" at an RV dealership set up their WDH with a dry trailer and no scales and when wet ends up looking like this.

steer 2900 drive 4540 18% or 1440 TW

Which for my truck would be too light on the steer with no traction to turn or stop with a raised COG and squirrely handling. Is also over max drive axle spec and over max receiver tongue weight spec. And of course over GVWR.

Most of the time this driver will pontificate about his 1/2 ton being a white knuckle ride take a beating on a trade and spend the family vacation to get an HD to solve what wasn't the problem. Or quietly sell the TT and get out of the idea of taking the kids camping cause he just can't afford it the way he things it needs to be done. Its easier to put them in front of Xbox you know. But a week at Yellowstone or Glacier is a week they will never forget and come to appreciate you for.

Oh yea and at least two posters in this thread will act like they never read or comprehended this post and will wait for the next newb to pontificate their same dead agenda with respects to any half ton truck, payload, and where they fall on the gas or diesel thing. IMO preferences are fine if stated as such and pros & cons are good but honest objectivity should remain.

[sbowman]

Originally Posted by DKB_SATX

"Because it's always been done poorly in the past" is not a good reason to do something poorly yet again.

Ever tried to herd chickens............good luck.

[VernDiesel]

Like herding cats.......... or learning something you don't want to?

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by VernDiesel

IMO Ford needs to expand the f150 diesel offerings to XLT etc and get more competitive on pricing but I suspect they will.

F150 diesel is a nitch truck 5 to 10% 1/2 tons sales says Ford (still a lot of trucks) to keep from bleeding sales to Ram & GM small diesels.
Its for people who prioritize this and are willing to pay a little extra to get it;

Fuel economy - 30 HWY is realistic where 20 is more realistic for a gas truck.
Towing efficiency - 15 avg at 65 with AS where a gas would get 10.
Diesel longevity - Had 370k towing with my 3.0 diesel before any motor issues. Many gassers are already in the boneyard at this point.
Enjoyable quiet more effortless towing - The EB has this also but all the NA gassers are going to gear swap & scream up grades and on rolling hills.
Either buys it first and foremost as an efficient comfortable daily driver and secondarily as tow vehicle or uses it as more of a dedicated tow vehicle but for moderate half ton appropriate loads.

Measurably more mileage, power, & the advantage of a turbo brake with a simple tune. 285HP & 515TQ enough TQ to move a 1/2 ton & AS from a traffic light with traffic or up a grade and enough HP to be fast enough for adequate passing power on the interstate.

I use a 3.0 diesel to efficiently transport Airstreams for the Mfg from plant to dealerships nationwide. Many Ohio to west coast with other TTs boats & sometimes AS's coming back. To the tune of 450k miles now. I also use it to safely take my family camping towing up to an 8k wet TT (travel trailer). IMO Half tons work quite well through the 27' floorplan and ok on 30 if weight & speed is kept in check and a person takes the time to properly set it up for safety & stability on a truck stop CAT scale. CAT scales weigh steer, drive, & TT axles separately and at the same time in order to set your axle & tongue weights to stay within Mfg limits and to get the ever important tongue weight in zone.

Rasengan Some of these posters are consistently bias toward their TV (tow vehicle) choice and seem narrative or agenda driven against other choices leaving honest objectivity behind. You end up with half truths to sift through. Also many are willfully blind about weight distribution how it works and what it does. While other posters on this forum are incredibly helpful and knowledgeable.

You asked if payload could be tweaked with a WDH. A WDH with weight redistribution in your TT & TV can pretty dramatically change your tongue weight which in turn changes your GVW or "payload". It does not just transfer weight from the drive axle to the steer axle but the amount of weight being put on the truck or back to the TT axles. While exceeding GVWR may be the easiest thing to do getting your axle and TW (tongue weight) percentage in Mfg spec is the most important with respects to the stability and safety of your towing rig. By adjusting it you also see how you can stay within the GVWR.

Example 6k TV 8k TT (heavier than your looking at)

10% TW equals 6,800 on TV axles and 7,200 on TT axles.
15% TW equals 7,200 on TV axles and 6,800 on TT axles. (no tale wagging this dog)

On my truck I would set up toward this;

steer 3,200 drive 3,800 (both in Mfg spec) IE 12.5% or 1,000 TW

This would restore my unloaded steer weight to keep max steer & braking traction and stay within Mfg spec. On the drive axle it would keep weight above the steer weight and within Mfg spec to retain best COG and drive traction especially on a downhill curve where the tongue is pushing it out of the curve. AT 12.5% TW even a box TT would resist sway from reasonable speed wind gusts & semi bowave. Making for a very safe stable tow. Additionally this would put 7,000 on my TV axles and only 7,000 on TT axles to minimize any possibility of the tale wagging the dog. This would be my priority over the being 50 pounds over my GVWR or payload as some say.

Naturally you can adjust to get within GVWR. Point is its last on the stability safety priories list not first. More importantly use the scales. It doesn't have to be done every year just once to get your basic setup right. Too many people let the "professionals" at an RV dealership set up their WDH with a dry trailer and no scales and when wet ends up looking like this.

steer 2900 drive 4540 18% or 1440 TW

Which for my truck would be too light on the steer with no traction to turn or stop with a raised COG and squirrely handling. Is also over max drive axle spec and over max receiver tongue weight spec. And of course over GVWR.

Most of the time this driver will pontificate about his 1/2 ton being a white knuckle ride take a beating on a trade and spend the family vacation to get an HD to solve what wasn't the problem. Or quietly sell the TT and get out of the idea of taking the kids camping cause he just can't afford it the way he things it needs to be done. Its easier to put them in front of Xbox you know. But a week at Yellowstone or Glacier is a week they will never forget and come to appreciate you for.

Oh yea and at least two posters in this thread will act like they never read or comprehended this post and will wait for the next newb to pontificate their same dead agenda with respects to any half ton truck, payload, and where they fall on the gas or diesel thing. IMO preferences are fine if stated as such and pros & cons are good but honest objectivity should remain.

An F-150 will do fine for AS up through 27' . I agree.
Our first Airstream was a 2012 28' International, our TV was 2012 F-150 EcoBoost. It worked OK for the most part however due to the 1K TW even on this AS we were constantly over on the payload by a couple of hundred lbs and on many occasion I had the tail wagging the dog situation. Also had to abort a couple very challenging climbs. When we moved up to the 2017 30' Classic it simply was not up to the job. Upgraded to an F-250 Power Stroke 6.5 bed and no more problems .
Every time I relate my experience I am told that my choice of TV is unsafe and should be pulling it with a Porsche or a Dodge Minivan.
Never mind that most of my working life was spent driving, managing heavy trucks, equipment pulling equipment trailers with pickups, and I can feel it in my bones when something is not up to snuff.

[Rasengan]

Originally Posted by VernDiesel

...

thanks so much, @VernDiesel!
i'm still a couple years off from buying, but i like to plan ahead.
when i am ready, i feel that there should be a good supply of F150 3.0 PS available used. i'll be getting a 4x4, so that will negatively impact fuel efficiency, i know, but it's worth the peace of mind for those unpaved roads in some NP's.

[ForestStranger]

[QUOTE=VernDiesel;2143726]IMO Ford needs to expand the f150 diesel offerings to XLT etc and get more competitive on pricing but I suspect they will.]

Great discussion of vehicle weights and tongue weights. Our 2014 JGC diesel pulled our 24' white box trailer @ 6000lbs loaded fine, averaging 15mpg over 11,000 miles of towing across the Western US. Unfortunately it was an early-build 2014 so it spent a lot of time in the dealership having emissions warranty work ($11,000 billed to Fiat). We are almost out of emissions warranty @ 79,000 miles. Love the 28-30mpg when not towing; hate the $199 oil changes. When we upgraded to a 27' FC the GVW of the Jeep was borderline, so bought a 2018 F150 max tow 4x4. Last 3 trips pulling 7,800 pounds we averaged 14.5mpg. Never over 60mph; usually 55mph. With the investment in TV and TT, we went with a ProPride hitch and love it. I'd be interested in your thoughts on the ProPride or Hensley, VernDiesel, especially from your experience as a hauler (or tow-er…).

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

An F-150 will do fine for AS up through 27' . I agree.
Our first Airstream was a 2012 28' International, our TV was 2012 F-150 EcoBoost. It worked OK for the most part however due to the 1K TW even on this AS we were constantly over on the payload by a couple of hundred lbs and on many occasion I had the tail wagging the dog situation. Also had to abort a couple very challenging climbs. When we moved up to the 2017 30' Classic it simply was not up to the job. Upgraded to an F-250 Power Stroke 6.5 bed and no more problems .
Every time I relate my experience I am told that my choice of TV is unsafe and should be pulling it with a Porsche or a Dodge Minivan.
Never mind that most of my working life was spent driving, managing heavy trucks, equipment pulling equipment trailers with pickups, and I can feel it in my bones when something is not up to snuff.

Frankly, Frank; I agree with you on this also....I note that most of the naysayers likely have not tried the more capable 3/4T with the larger AS's, so they don't really know the what their missing. As my wife says, stay safe and stay relaxed.

[VernDiesel]

Rasengan you are welcome. I appreciate the feedback. I own and have become a believer in the 4WD being worth the extra cost & 1 mpg penalty.

Forrest agreed I love the 100k warranty but your dealer got you on the oil changes and likely FCA on that bill. Got my ED in early May of 14. Never paid the dealer more than $125 for the larger 10.5 quart full synthetic oil change that the Ram requires. Now changing my own with approved and full synthetic Rotella T6 my cost is $65 which for a Mfg recommended 10k oil change interval isn't bad.

I have used the Pro Prop with a wet 30' Classic my coil spring 4WD Ram 1500 and a lowerd 2WD 3500 dually. It was great for dialing in the weight distribution and they are superior for sway control. Most beneficial when you have one long heavy TT/TH and a lighter shorter wheel base TV. Expensive but great if you only drive one TV have one trailer and always hitch on flat ground. Not so great if you often swap trailers and trucks and sometimes have to do so on sloped terrain and such. But with any WDH you should still do your initial set up according to scale results. Worth the money depends on your goals and means.

FF Yeah the 28 is tongue heavy. The 30 International is easier to setup and tows better. The 30 Classic not so much and is often like an extra 1,000 pounds heavier from the start. If as a newb you had the tail wagging the dog and you fully read and comprehended the above post you can figure out why. Well if you actually have a weight slip from then. It was your setup mostly between those three numbers and not very much so just payload or more accurately GVWR in and of itself.

Guys I like HD trucks. But they are not always the best overall for everyone's situation. When someone has a problem as Frank described I first like to show them to the less than $20 & a few hours of your time solution. They should learn of it anyway regardless of TV. If they are actually overloaded and not just off balance then by all means point them to the appropriate tool for the job. If THEY want an HD just because they want one that is fine. But to hide the truth and point them to nonsense like payload stickers and tell them their only solution no matter whether they can afford it or not is to trade for your favorite HD truck be it to justify your choices or otherwise or trade for a smaller trailer or essentially lead them to leave camping because its too frustration and they can't afford it. Well that ain't right. Gypsydad I recently did a 400 mile round trip to hilly lake Cumberland with family in a 33.5' ball to bumper 8k TT. (SILs non AS) I could drive relaxed with two fingers on the wheel at 65 despite being a 1/2 ton. My daughter could have drove that rig. I know exactly why that was and can show you the CAT slip. Am I recommending people select a 30' TT to tow behind their 1/2 ton? NO. But if they are already their looking for help I'm not telling them they are fokked look at he payload sticker.

[rgg123]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Here is where your match up on which size trailer you get can affect the handling and braking on your TV. I personally, think the F150 EB 1/2T's are great TV's for 20' thru 25' AS's. Great performance, power, capabilities, assuming you get right payload. You have tow/haul mode and engine does pretty good job managing your pulling when engaged. You can add brake gain if needed or use the manual brake levers...I only did that a few times in 5 years of towing...going down a very steep and windy highway. Other folks use the transmission to slow down by using the manual shifting option to keep in lower gear.

I like my 3/4T F250 for my 28'AS, but many here use the F150 EB for 26 and larger, and seem to be fine. If I go back to 25'AS, I will likely go down to the 1/2T again. Easier to park/drive. As for the F250, I know in some situations, I am glad to have the extras for the larger AS on my TV...such as engine brake, larger/heavier frame, suspension, brakes and payload that are on the diesel 3/4T and 1T models. I did not like the ride on 2016 and earlier 3/4T but they changed the suspension in 2017 and it really rides nice now. I pull a lot in the Rockies, so to me, the extra power and added benefits I have with the F250 6.7D make me feel pretty confident.

I own a 30 ft Classic. Just upgraded to an F250 6.7 diesel from an F250 gasser after putting 5100 miles in the Rockies. The 250 gasser is fine on flat roads (although merging on expressways is challenging) but really struggles on modest inclines both up (very slow - which I can deal with most of the time) and especially down (have to go very slow to prevent against run away as downshifting and braking is all you have). The drives become too stressful and as a result I don’t drive the mileage I could if I had more power. The diesel will provide me with what I need to navigate the ups and downs without the stress.

One thing most people do not do is calculate all of the things they need to do before they choose a TV (I learned the hard way) - including GVWR, GCVWR, payload, etc. you must pass ALL metrics to be in a safe driving position. Most people only pay attention to weight of trailer versus what the manufacturer says the TV can tow. Sure, it may be able to tow on flat land (like my now former F250 gasser) but the quality and safety of the ride leave much to be desired. Don’t push the limits - build in some margin and drive safe and comfortable.

A great tow calculator is available at www.changingears.com - check it out and be safe

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by rgg123

I own a 30 ft Classic. Just upgraded to an F250 6.7 diesel from an F250 gasser after putting 5100 miles in the Rockies. The 250 gasser is fine on flat roads (although merging on expressways is challenging) but really struggles on modest inclines both up (very slow - which I can deal with most of the time) and especially down (have to go very slow to prevent against run away as downshifting and braking is all you have). The drives become too stressful and as a result I don’t drive the mileage I could if I had more power. The diesel will provide me with what I need to navigate the ups and downs without the stress.

One thing most people do not do is calculate all of the things they need to do before they choose a TV (I learned the hard way) - including GVWR, GCVWR, payload, etc. you must pass ALL metrics to be in a safe driving position. Most people only pay attention to weight of trailer versus what the manufacturer says the TV can tow. Sure, it may be able to tow on flat land (like my now former F250 gasser) but the quality and safety of the ride leave much to be desired. Don’t push the limits - build in some margin and drive safe and comfortable.

A great tow calculator is available at www.changingears.com - check it out and be safe

Agree again! As I mentioned, if you have not tried the larger TV with the added advantages with the newer technology, you may never know the difference. But, having the right size TV that is able to handle payload within specs, power for the task, engine braking along with latest technology applied for brakes and transmission control, is what I feel is important for me and my family.

Verndiesel-- you may have made a 400 mile roundtrip safely and felt at ease with your 1/2T pulling an 8K TT, but that doesn't say in an emergency, your 1/2T is able to avoid a mishap...maybe with you driving or some other experienced road warrior, you may get lucky. When the chips are down, going 65mph around a corner to find traffic at a full stop with no brake lights, I know I was very happy I was driving a heavier TV last year while going to Alumalina. Just saying...for me, the 3/4T diesel matches well with the heavier AS I have...and the 1/2T F150 I had earlier with my 25's, I don't feel is big enough to keep me out of the rearend of the traffic in the situation I described...you only go around once...not trying to say anyone is "fokked" if they don't check the payload, as you suggested. Just sharing my experience...I'm not a long haul trucker either....just have 18 years towing 5 TT''s, 4 of them AS's, for family vacations in the desert and in the Rockies.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by rgg123

I own a 30 ft Classic. Just upgraded to an F250 6.7 diesel from an F250 gasser after putting 5100 miles in the Rockies. The 250 gasser is fine on flat roads (although merging on expressways is challenging) but really struggles on modest inclines both up (very slow - which I can deal with most of the time) and especially down (have to go very slow to prevent against run away as downshifting and braking is all you have). The drives become too stressful and as a result I don’t drive the mileage I could if I had more power. The diesel will provide me with what I need to navigate the ups and downs without the stress.

One thing most people do not do is calculate all of the things they need to do before they choose a TV (I learned the hard way) - including GVWR, GCVWR, payload, etc. you must pass ALL metrics to be in a safe driving position. Most people only pay attention to weight of trailer versus what the manufacturer says the TV can tow. Sure, it may be able to tow on flat land (like my now former F250 gasser) but the quality and safety of the ride leave much to be desired. Don’t push the limits - build in some margin and drive safe and comfortable.

A great tow calculator is available at www.changingears.com - check it out and be safe

You make some very good observations.
My very, very , very last post on this thread promise.
Towing the Classic 30' with my marginal F-150 I often dreaded hitting the road because it became a chore. With the F 250- Power Stroke I am looking for any excuse to hit the road. Its a sure footed solid tow platform and with the large payload, the Super Cab and 6.5' bed combo I throw the stuff in the back (we don't stow anything in the trailer) and off we are.

[VernDiesel]

Yep have come around that blind curve to a full stop not pleasant. Not only do you have to get stopped but make a split second decision about if & where to put yourself so you don't get creamed from behind. CB truckers hollering southbound coming to a stop. This is part of where the practical limit of 8k for a (properly setup) halfer comes in. I don't care if Mfgs rate a max pkg half ton to pull a 12k. (with flat bed on flat ground lol) I know SAE J2807 takes this into account but I agree with having extra safety margin. Have also driven trucks improperly set up with 3+ hundred pounds off their unloaded steer weight (headlights in the trees) with severely hampered braking traction dramatically affecting the minimum stopping distance. I see that a lot more often than the emergency blind stop. Slides into the intersection etc. In need of either proper setup or a bigger truck.