Daily Driver and / or Tow Vehicle options

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by dasams

Newbie here with a question about engine braking. Since the trailer brakes aren't activated, isn't the hitch in compression instead of tension? How might this affect handling?

On dry roads you should be fine. Just watch curves and especially wet or slick roads. You'll want to use your brakes for those so the tires don't lose traction. Even if the road is straight.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by avionstream

As far as big trucks being hard to park, I also had a Mitsubishi Eclypse for years. Couldn't get that thing in a parking space straight any better than the one ton. Sold the mits, kept the truck. If you can't park, you can't park. I need lots of space.

My 3/4 ton and half ton had the same body style. Neither was any more or less difficult to park than the other. Trick I learned was to always back in. I got real good at backing up; wouldn't let my kids drive until they could demonstrate backing up with mirrors only. (Also required them to demonstrate that they could merge at freeway speed without making anyone move over).

[crispyboy]

Originally Posted by ejritz

My 2500 5.9 Cummins is five speed manual. I heard various recommendations regarding the use of an exhaust brake for travel in the mountains. What has been the experience of people on this forum? Is it worth retrofitting an exhaust brake onto an older vehicle with a manual, or is this only a benefit when using automatics?

Yes it is absolutely worth the effort and expense to have an older diesel pickup retrofitted with an exhaust brake. The exhaust brake helps you to control the load behind the truck on while descending steep grades. The drive is much safer when the vehicle can control the load. I have the integrated exhaust brake on my truck and it works fabulously!

To answer the OP question:
I would have no trouble driving my truck daily but I would rather sacrifice my econobox car (hate it) to the winter salt when I drive to work. The truck gets used after work for hauling duties, recreation duties, traveling duties (it is comfortable) and driving to church on Sunday because I like it!

[Dan_Rox]

We are scheduled to pick up our Flying Cloud 28A next Friday. I currently have a 2011 GMC Sierra 1500 with the 6.2 motor. I think I will have plenty of motor, but the suspension will be within a couple hundred pounds of gvwr. I really enjoy driving the truck, but my daily driver is a Yamaha Tenere. I only use the truck in bad weather or towing. We are considering A GMC Savana 3/4 or 1 ton van as a new tow vehicle, but I doubt I would enjoy driving it as much as the Sierra pickup.

[m.hony]

I would try towing with the truck before trading it.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by dasams

Newbie here with a question about engine braking. Since the trailer brakes aren't activated, isn't the hitch in compression instead of tension? How might this affect handling?

That's the problem. The Dodge Upfitter Guide only recommends an EB when the trailer exceeds 10,000-lbs. I've driven these commercially and with a 20K trailer on the back it is well worth having. But that's in a gooseneck configuration. And loads that didn't catch much wind.

Being passed on the downslope by big trucks, or hitting a crosswind, is what screws things up for conventional hitched travel trailers. Vulnerability is at its highest. One NEEDS to be using the servic brake and have the controller adjusted to have the TT brakes at a higher total percentage of available pressure.

A 10 or 11k pound AS doesnt "justify" an EB. Speed on the descent and transmission gear choice are where it's at for making an easy descent.

If anything, disc brakes on the TT pay for themselves in this. Antilock only makes that better.

[dasams]

Originally Posted by slowmover

That's the problem. The Dodge Upfitter Guide only recommends an EB when the trailer exceeds 10,000-lbs. I've driven these commercially and with a 20K trailer on the back it is well worth having. But that's in a gooseneck configuration. And loads that didn't catch much wind.

Being passed on the downslope by big trucks, or hitting a crosswind, is what screws things up for conventional hitched travel trailers. Vulnerability is at its highest. One NEEDS to be using the servic brake and have the controller adjusted to have the TT brakes at a higher total percentage of available pressure.

A 10 or 11k pound AS doesnt "justify" an EB. Speed on the descent and transmission gear choice are where it's at for making an easy descent.

If anything, disc brakes on the TT pay for themselves in this. Antilock only makes that better.

Your comments make a lot sense.

[rostam]

GMC Canyon/Chevy Colorado diesels have exhaust brakes and are rated to tow around 7500#. Apparently, exhaust brake is not something meant only for super heavy loads, and moderate loads can benefit from it as well.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by rostam

GMC Canyon/Chevy Colorado diesels have exhaust brakes and are rated to tow around 7500#. Apparently, exhaust brake is not something meant only for super heavy loads, and moderate loads can benefit from it as well.

You missed the part about the hitch being in compression?

Vehicle size, type or engine is irrelevant.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by slowmover

You missed the part about the hitch being in compression?

Vehicle size, type or engine is irrelevant.

I trust the GM engineers and am sure all your concerns are taken into account by them.

[Streamin]

The only thing I can add to the discussion is that I have pulled my Airstream with the Jacobs brake and the Hensley since 06 when I purchased the trailer. Interstate driving, winding two lane roads and the scenarios mentioned in these posts.
I've had the car trailer to Florida and back, even driving through the outer squall line of a hurricane as it was coming in...yeah, great timing. Trips into the midwest...etc without the sway bars hooked up.
Compression, tension, heavy loads, light loads all I can say is that I feel safe with my family in the vehicle with the set-up I have.
I would disagree that " vehicle type,size and engine are irrelevant". They have a huge impact on towing. I wouldn't want to hook a small SUV into my 31 footer just like it would be overkill to hook a Bambi to a 3/4 or 1 ton. But, if you had a F350 and wanted to pull a Bambi ,at least you would have the chassis, engine and brakes to handle the tow(and a factory EB and brake controller would be nice).
I bought my truck first, engine brake, then the hitch and then selected my trailer. Whatever direction you go, choose well, have fun and travel safe.
Peace.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by rostam

I trust the GM engineers and am sure all your concerns are taken into account by them.

Quote them, then.

And, what's the procedure with brakes and throttle to correct a swaying trailer? To put the hitch into compression or tension?

[gmw photos]

Originally Posted by slowmover

Quote them, then.

And, what's the procedure with brakes and throttle to correct a swaying trailer? To put the hitch into compression or tension?

From the 2016 Chevy Canyon manual, page 46:

"Downshifts may be automatically selected to increase engine speed, which increases the effectiveness of the exhaust brake. The number of downshifts selected is determined by the length of time the brakes are applied and the rate the vehicle is slowing. The system delivers the correct amount of braking to assist in vehicle control. The heavier the vehicle load, the more active the engine exhaust brake will be. Use of the exhaust brake will help maintain vehicle speed when used with cruise control."

======
No place in the manual even mentions weight when talking about the exhaust brake. Sounds to me like they are in effect saying use of the exhaust brake is approved when towing any load the truck is rated for.

[Alluminati]

Standard operation for steep/long descent is downshifting. How is an exhaust brake less safe than downshifting?

[slowmover]

Use of the EB without corresponding TT brake activation means hitch is in compression the entire descent.

TT is pretty much ALWAYS traveling faster than TV in a descent.

Takes little wind or other problem to upset the apple cart

Descent without EB -- and using service brake intermittently -- keeps tension applied. Choose the right gear. Choose a lower speed.

Sure as hell won't change anyones day to travel at a more cautious speed.

Emergency procedure in event of sway (usually noticed TOO LATE and especially so with the lack of feedback in a solid axle 4WD with worm sector steering) is to slam throttle open and slam TT brakes on full.

There's no time for less. Hammer it.

EB use will LIKELY correspond with descent speed that is too fast to have adequate room to follow that procedure.

It's not at all a safety aid. An EB isn't even a convenience with one of these trailers.

A 16k fiver? Yeah, now one is into that territory. But it still isn't necessary. If it had disc brakes, even less so.

Even in a 79,000-lb Class 8 on the Interstate it's a convenience. As the hitch compression problem doesn't exist, on a dry day it's damned nice to have.

But one is still choosing gear and speed target to obtain a safe descent.

[gmw photos]

At the risk of also being called a troll, I'd say they reading comprehension is fine around here. It's perhaps the engineering comprehension that may be lacking by some.

Example: it's very common strategy in trailering, and always has been to drive down hills in the mountains, using lower gears, and therefore using the engine as a "braking force" for the combined rig, without needing to use any brakes at all ( tow vehicle or trailer ).

Guess what: is the hitch connection in compression, or tension ? Hmmm....you got it...it's in compression.

I've towed bumper pull trailers countless miles down twisty mountain roads since the late 1960's, using this procedure. Not once, not one single time, have I had an issue with this.
I would suggest, the real key here is a properly engineered trailer, correctly loaded and hitched to an adequate tow vehicle piloted by a skilled driver.

Some may want to brush up on their engineering comprehension. Or failing that, I'm thinking the poster rostam has it right: just rely on what the the manufacturer says in their manual, such as the quote I posted earlier from the GM manual.

[dasams]

Originally Posted by gmw photos

Not once, not one single time, have I had an issue with this.

Engineer here. PhD in fact, not that it matters.

The issue for me is that using an EB or downshifting on downhills means that all of the brake traction is down by the four tires of the TV. Meanwhile, the four tires of the TT are just going along for the ride.

EB and downshifting were important back in the day when brake failure was a real concern. But with modern equipment on a dry road in good condition, I have no doubt that a person could go a lifetime without incident.

But anytime I'm descending on the road under difficult conditions, i.e., rain, grease, sand, snow, etc, there's no way I'd rely on four tires for braking when I have brakes on eight. And I'll do everything I can to keep the hitch in tension which means have the TT brake controller should be set a bit more aggressive than the TV. YMMV, Dave

[dkottum]

Depending on engine/exhaust braking of the truck's rear wheels to hold your Airstream while it is pushing you down the hill is terrific. Until you hit a patch of ice or loose gravel on a curve.

We'll stay with our method of reduced speed, engine compression braking through low axle gears and a downshifted transmission, combined with truck and trailer service brakes and the brake controller set to favor the trailer's brakes. If the road surface is unsure, I would reduce speed further and move my hand near the brake controller on the curve.

I believe the weak link in a heavy duty pickup/Airstream combo near truck GCWR is traction of the truck's rear tires on steep downhill grades using engine exhaust braking alone. A dually would help some, maybe we'll start seeing more of them as the next progression towards overkill.

[gmw photos]

Originally Posted by dasams

Engineer here. PhD in fact, not that it matters.

The issue for me is that using an EB or downshifting on downhills means that all of the brake traction is down by the four tires of the TV. Meanwhile, the four tires of the TT are just going along for the ride.

EB and downshifting were important back in the day when brake failure was a real concern. But with modern equipment on a dry road in good condition, I have no doubt that a person could go a lifetime without incident.

But anytime I'm descending on the road under difficult conditions, i.e., rain, grease, sand, snow, etc, there's no way I'd rely on four tires for braking when I have brakes on eight. And I'll do everything I can to keep the hitch in tension which means have the TT brake controller should be set a bit more aggressive than the TV. YMMV, Dave

Dave, you said:

"And I'll do everything I can to keep the hitch in tension which means have the TT brake controller should be set a bit more aggressive than the TV. YMMV, Dave"
=======

And the only problem I have with that theory is that in order to keep the hitch in tension, you would have to be on the brakes the entire descent.
All of it.
Because the instant you let off the brakes, the trailer is going to once again be "pushing" on the trailer. Gravity will ensure that.

EDIT: ps.... I reckon I will conclude that if a truck and trailer combo cannot safely descend a curvy mountain road without keeping the hitch in tension the entire way, then the owner needs to seriously re-think their whole combo of truck/trailer/hitch/driving skills.

EDIT 2: Doug, I would suggest if a person does not have enough sense and skills to get through a curve with ice/snow/gravel etc, then they probably should not be hitching a trailer to a truck to go traveling. I guess common sense is not so common anymore.

[dasams]

Originally Posted by dkottum

A dually would help some, maybe we'll start seeing more of them as the next progression towards overkill.

The shape of a tire's contact patch greatly affects braking performance.

Back in the day of skinny tires, the contact patch was long and thin which didn't do much for braking. Reason is that the leading edge of the contact patch is the most effective.

The size of a contact patch is directly related to the vehicle weight. Ignoring the weight supported by the side walls, the size of the contact patch is simply the weight divided by the tire air pressure.

So a dually, with four tires in the back, will have four contact patches that are short and wide. Great for straight line braking and acceleration but not so good for cornering traction.