CNG Tow vehicles on the horizon

[Denis4x4]

Colorado gov: States ready to buy 10,000 CNG cars | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

[HowieE]

I read this and sent in on the several friends under the subject line "Thank God for Governors"

This is something the Feds or the military, for on base use, should have done years ago. It is time this country wakes up and regains some of what it has lost to the rest of the world.

[dznf0g]

CNG is an extremely viable fuel. You do lose some HP and torque, so you'll want to spec accordingly. Mileage is measured in GGE (gasoline gallon equivelants) to accommodate for different energy values per actual gallons. Fuel economy is roughly the same under this formula. CNG is substantially less cost per GGE than gasoline. Availability and infrastructure is still an issue for quick fill, public stations.

There are presently new offerings from Ford, GM and Dodge. I can only speak to the details on GM, but do your homework CAREFULLY when comparing. There are some important differences.

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by Denis4x4

Colorado gov: States ready to buy 10,000 CNG cars | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

I don't get it. Let me clarify. I get why using CNG for fuel is a good thing. I just don't get why it's all that newsworthy.

First paragraph from the article:

Denver - Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper said he expects a coalition of 22 states will agree to buy as many 10,000 vehicles annually that run on compressed natural gas — if U.S. automakers build them.

I see City of Little Rock vehicles with CNG badges on them all the time. Not the buses, but vans and pickups. They're still new, but the article sounds like it's not possible to buy CNG vehicles. Further down in the article, they drop in:

Chrysler and General Motors Co. are offering "bi-fuel" trucks that run on either compressed natural gas or gasoline.

and:

Ford Motor Co. offers a CNG version of its Transit Connect Taxi, and CNG is an option for Ford E-Series vans and F-Series Super Duty trucks.

Doesn't sound like getting them is a problem to me. Just buy them.

[dznf0g]

Vaughn, problem is, automakers have been dropping in and out of this market for several decades. Because the US cannot settle on a definitive energy policy, when infrastructure falls away, there is no retail market. Some municipal and private Fleets who central fuel out of their own private stations have been using OEM and aftermarket conversions for a very long time.

CNG, recently, is experiencing a comeback. BUT, automakers have been burned with this in the past....thus the "cautious" comment....and that is true. GM is watching the market carefully, before considering any further models and configurations as an OEM system, or hardened engine offerings to the aftermarket.

[HowieE]

I am surprised that the Governors have not asked Canada to join in. UPS and Fed Ex are converting a large fleets to operate on CNG in the northwest.

Along these lines VW and a few other manufactures currently have engines they sell around the world that get in excess of 70 MPH but are forbidden from selling them in the US because of the reduced fuel tax to the government that they would produce.

Like I said above thank God for Governors and private companies that will push this issue.

[dznf0g]

Howie, there are others. Believe it or not, probably the biggest "pusher" of alternative fuels (CNG and others) are the Clean Cities organizations, which get some of their funding from the Fed DOE. They are an educator to fleets and the public re. alt fuels and promote knowledge swapping through networking and availability of state alt fuel use incentives and infrastructure grants.

I happen to sit on the Chicago Area Clean Cities board and a State of Illinois EPA employee is our current chair. There is actually a LOT of interactive synergy between private and public fleets, the states, OEMs and vendors, and the Feds, in this arena. A lot more than the public is aware of.

You can find info on my local area and our efforts here:

Illinois Green Fleets

and here

ChicagoCleanCities.org

[jdalrymple]

I have no big problem CNG. We owned poultry and beef farms when I was a kid. The the pickups I drove to high school and college were propane powered. An 80 gallon propane tank held enough to get the 100 miles to college, run around a little and get home to refuel. Maintaining the ability to use switch between propane and gasoline was a must, though.

They drive fine, but, the availability of refuel stations is the issue. It worked for us then because we could refuel at our farms, but trips out of town meant a switch to gasoline.

Granted, limited range fleets like transit buses and local delivery trucks can work with a single refuel station.

I believe diesel is the better choice. It just works. The engines are 20 percent more efficient than any gas engine to start with, and that can be improved upon. And, existing fuel infrastructure can be used.

JD

[Aage]

Originally Posted by HowieE

I am surprised that the Governors have not asked Canada to join in. UPS and Fed Ex are converting a large fleets to operate on CNG in the northwest.

We have been on and off this bandwagon too. About 15-20 years ago, IIRC, there was a significant tax incentive for people to convert to CNG, and lots of fleets did, most notably the airport limos.

But political support for it dried up and it's gone now.

There is still the Canadian Natural Gas Vehicle Alliance, which will help with any questions and point out suppliers that will make sure that supply is available if you are about to invest in a fleet that uses it.

But we are a big exporter of gasoline now, and the Prime Minister of our country is from out west where it mostly comes from, so I can't imagine any support in the near future for CNG...

[moosetags]

Originally Posted by HowieE

I am surprised that the Governors have not asked Canada to join in. UPS and Fed Ex are converting a large fleets to operate on CNG in the northwest.

Along these lines VW and a few other manufactures currently have engines they sell around the world that get in excess of 70 MPH but are forbidden from selling them in the US because of the reduced fuel tax to the government that they would produce.

Like I said above thank God for Governors and private companies that will push this issue.

Howie,

I am assuming that you meant 70 MPG vs. MPH. If this information is accurate, our government should be ashamed of itself for not allowing importation of these engines because it would not be good for tax collection.

Brian

[Denis4x4]

"They drive fine, but, the availability of refuel stations is the issue. It worked for us then because we could refuel at our farms, but trips out of town meant a switch to gasoline."

I had a cng/gas bobcat and a "wet feed" on my propane tank at home. Thanks to the EPA and their rules protecting me from myself, the "wet feed" was pulled. The USFS has several new F-150 cng/gas trucks in their fleet here.

[dznf0g]

Aage, the incentives are not gone. They come and go, and vary in amounts per budget year, but they are present in many areas.

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by moosetags

Howie,

I am assuming that you meant 70 MPG vs. MPH. If this information is accurate, our government should be ashamed of itself for not allowing importation of these engines because it would not be good for tax collection.

Brian

Yes a typing error, it is MPG

If we wait for our Government to be Ashamed nothing would ever get done.

Yes CNG has had its rises and falls in the past but the limiting factor in the past has always been CONVERSION not dealer ready vehicles. Conversion has always had a cost factor that limited the return on investment so it was only attractive to a limited few.

This is a new ballgame if manufactures can be convinced to provide a product designed for mass sales.

I envision small forward thinking towns adopting CNG and putting in fueling stations for their local police and administrative fleets. If those stations were card access and made available to the local plumbers, carpenters, and florist delivery I see significant numbers of local businesses buying new vehicles during the next replacement cycle.

[Aage]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Aage, the incentives are not gone. They come and go, and vary in amounts per budget year, but they are present in many areas.

Are you talking about the US or Canada? I don't think they still exist here, but I'm no expert.

Here's the Wikipedia reference to what happened here. The US story follows it.

Compressed natural gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[dznf0g]

Aage, In the US. See my links in above post and links within those websites. Many states have fuel use and conversion/option rebates. In Illinois you get 80% of the upfit/option up to a max of $4,000. That's in addition to fuel use rebates.

Howie, the cost of upfit and the quality of aftermarket upfits have been a negative. OEM options aren't cheap either. The real limiting factor, except for centrally fueled fleets, is availability of fast fill, high pressure (3,600 psi) stations.

[dznf0g]

Howie, you don't have to envision it. It has happened to municipal, county, state, and to some extent, federal fleets already.

In my area, just a few are: State of Illinois (Springfield), IL DOT (in a few locations), City of Chicago, DuPage County Forest Preserve District, Village of Skokie, Northwestern University, Goot (Gargage haulers).....there are others that escape me now, and I'm sure quite a few which I am not aware of.

In addition, some of those fleet locations are open to the public, but that present some economic, tax, liability, and administrative issues some folks don't want to deal with.

[Gene]

CNG is only temporary. Eventually we will run out of natural gas too. Investing in large scale distribution of CNG means we will run out faster. How much gas there is now is up for debate as companies always say there is more in their reserves than there is.

Electricity is the future as it can be renewable. Because government policies change every few years, there is not continued support for anything except oil and gas and coal, and investing in anything but that is very risky. Changing from a hydrocarbon and coal economy is difficult and needs consistent support from the government. If we don't do it, others are, notably China, Germany and some other European countries. We run the risk that all the technology for renewables will have to be bought from China and Europe and we will have to pay for it just as we do to import oil.

10,000 vehicles won't make a lot of difference, but a couple of million will drive up natural gas prices and we will be in the same spot we are now where gasoline and diesel supply is a world market which we cannot control. It will cost much more to heat houses and businesses and generate electricity, so it's a temporary fix and not a very good one. It can work in urban areas where few CNG stations are located, but over the road, I can't see many more CNG stations being built. So, limited use of CNG is fine as part of a transition, but it is not the future.

Gene

[dznf0g]

Gene, there is no one right solution. I believe we will see many diverse fuel sources and propulsion methods be correct for certain regions, and markets. There is a lot of CNG though. At least enough for 100 years, according to "experts". And EVERYTHING is temporary, on some time scale. I am a proponent (with the right circumstances and economics and feed stock, region by region), of Gas, Diesel, electricity, CNG, LPG, Hydrogen, bio-diesel, and ethanol. Some of these areas need much more research to be socially, economically, and environmentally sustainable, but, of the alt fuels, electricity and CNG and LPG are the most ready for prime time. Distribution systems are already in place, and they are plentiful.

They will each find their place and market, but this is a CNG thread, so I didn't want to run off in the other areas.

Regionally, Kwik Trip stations have made a bold step in announcing installation of fast fill pumps at their locations in Iowa and Wisconsin, starting with interstate corridor locations.

[HowieE]

Electricity is the future as it can be renewable.

Gene just where does that renewable electricity come from. Could it be GAS FIRED plants. We have a 100 years of gas available and maybe within that time Solyndra will have the answer. Solar or battery may be an answer for fixed locations such as homes but I doubt it will ever power an 18 wheeler in my lifetime.

[jdalrymple]

The fuel range of CNG vehicles compounds the problem of refueling infrastructure.
Unlike propane, which can be easily liquefied for storage, natural gas cannot be liquefied in any normal setting. So it must be stored as a compressed gas.
Storage tanks that can safely manage 3500 PSI are big, heavy, and/or expensive (think composites) to make. Combine this with the fact that CNG produces fewer BTUs per given quantity, and one ends up with a car that has a maximum range of 250 miles. Larger tanks can be used on vehicles we might use for tow vehicles, but these will take up GVW and space for toys.
While stopping every 250 is not really a problem, creating nationwide coverage of CNG refill stations at the given interval is a very expensive issue. One would have to build the station in a location able to supply the required quantity of natural gas to begin with. This means a big enlargement of the natural gas pipeline system. The stations tapped into the lines now fill only a few vehicles. When and if mass production starts, the story will be different.
This same problem plagues wind energy solutions as well. Getting the electricity from where it is produced to where it can be used is a considerable problem.

And just wait until the “I will never drive with the propane on” crowd starts in. (sorry, I could not resist).

Not that it can’t work, but it ain’t no dead cinch either.
JD