CNG Tow vehicles on the horizon

[dznf0g]

True, Jeff. That's why you would want a bi-fuel CNG truck. The Chevy has a 17 GGE CNG tank AND a 37 gallon gasoline tank. E85 compatable, if you choose to use it. Total range...650 miles. Can't find CNG? Refill with gasoline.

This whole alternative fuel thing is about offsetting the importation of foreign crude. What ever offsets 1 gallon is OK in my book.

I do believe in helping the environment too, it's just not my #1 priority in this discussion topic.

No question the tank eats up bed space though....and 500# of cargo capacity. Only available on a 2500HD for that reason.

[Gene]

I have often seen it stated we have a 100 year supply of natural gas. But what is that based on? No change in present use—heating, some electric power plants (closing in on 50% now) and not many cars and trucks? But if 10,000,000 cars and trucks (or more) were using it, how much will consumption rise?

Estimates of natural gas reserves change constantly, up and down, so I find it hard to trust them. Companies owning reserves have an economic interest in overstating reserves to keep their stock prices up and make them ripe for advantageous takeovers. Fracking is a major issue and no one knows the ultimate outcome of that, but it trends toward limits on it and thus, limits on reserves.

There's no doubt there will be several alternative fuels as dzn' says. The market will sort some of it out, but so will regulation of the environment to protect water and air. With federal policies changing every 4 years or even less, and state policies changing weekly or monthly, it is impossible to predict where the safe and profitable investments will be and as a result the tendency is for investment to go to traditional fuels regardless of whether that will make sense 10 or 20 years from now.

Back in 19-teens, Porsche invented a car with an electric motor on each wheel. A good idea if he had batteries for it and could keep each wheel going at the same rate. You could probably steer by increasing speed on one side and reducing it on the other (like a Bobcat)—I can't remember if he did it that way. Electric motors are superior in torque and don't need complicated transmissions or transfer cases. Scientists all over the world are looking for a battery solution—less weight being the problem. Some guy (or woman) somewhere is going to figure it out someday and I hope it is an American or Canadian, or at least, a European. We can work with those countries. Or maybe super efficient roof solar panels will supplement the batteries—that technology is improving fast (but most of it is coming from China).

Gene

[Gene]

Originally Posted by HowieE

Electricity is the future as it can be renewable.

Gene just where does that renewable electricity come from. Could it be GAS FIRED plants. We have a 100 years of gas available and maybe within that time Solyndra will have the answer. Solar or battery may be an answer for fixed locations such as homes but I doubt it will ever power an 18 wheeler in my lifetime.

I was speaking of renewable sources of electricity, not gas or coal. I have already commented on the question if whether we really have a 100 year supply of natural gas. CNG already can power a large intracity delivery truck, so I suppose it can be scaled up for an 18 wheeler, though because they are for over the road, I doubt we will see much of that. The economics of that business dictate few fuel stops and CNG does not lend itself to that (see JD's post above).

Gene

[dznf0g]

Gene has all valid, albeit, arguable points. POLICY MAKERS being THE biggest hurdle of all.

If a "JFK" like figure would stand up and say, "by the end of the decade we will be petroleum free in all production vehicles sold in America." It could be easily done. We have the technology. Too risky to invest in because the policymakers, and environmentalists (for right or wrong...or somewhere in between) keep moving the target.

[HowieE]

Why are we willing to accept complete change in our electronic gadgets ever 18 months or less and we can not embrace a technology that that may last decades and offset one of the biggest overhangs to our countries growth.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by HowieE

Why are we willing to accept complete change in our electronic gadgets ever 18 months or less and we can not embrace a technology that that may last decades and offset one of the biggest overhangs to our countries growth.

When you figure it out, let me know. This debate and associated technologies has been a part of my everyday professional life for over 15 years now. I've heard every reason in the book of why we can't do one or the other, or the other. Roadblocks at every development in technology.

Like my wife's father used to tell her as a child. " 'I can't never did anything....'"

[Wazbro]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

I was speaking of renewable sources of electricity, not gas or coal. I have already commented on the question if whether we really have a 100 year supply of natural gas. CNG already can power a large intracity delivery truck, so I suppose it can be scaled up for an 18 wheeler, though because they are for over the road, I doubt we will see much of that. The economics of that business dictate few fuel stops and CNG does not lend itself to that (see JD's post above).

Gene

1 of the shipping ports in California made a rule requiring a maximum pollution output for any trucks that pick up loads there so any trucks built before a certain date had to be replaced or converted to CNG, many were converted.

[jdalrymple]

Originally Posted by Wazbro

1 of the shipping ports in California made a rule requiring a maximum pollution output for any trucks that pick up loads there so any trucks built before a certain date had to be replaced or converted to CNG, many were converted.

Maybe, or shipping companies would simply change ports or even build a new one. Or outsource to Mexico and truck the freight back to the United States.

The law of un-intended consequences is a real PITA.

JD

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by Wazbro

1 of the shipping ports in California made a rule requiring a maximum pollution output for any trucks that pick up loads there so any trucks built before a certain date had to be replaced or converted to CNG, many were converted.

Which port?

Details?

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by vswingfield

Which port?

Details?

After searching for a while, it looks like the San Pedro Bay ports (LA and Long Beach).

Found a paper from the American Chemical Society by Douglas R. Lawson from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory.

Interesting read. Some mix of intended and unintended consequences. Seems to be true of many things.

[dznf0g]

Not sure what happened to my prior post, but you can read about several CA port initiatives here:

California Natural Gas Vehicle Coalition: Resources

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Not sure what happened to my prior post, but you can read about several CA port initiatives here:

California Natural Gas Vehicle Coalition: Resources

Thanks!

More interesting reading.

Natural gas is a great fuel. It's the distribution system that makes it difficult for anything but fleet operations right now. Little Rock had a CNG station for a while, but it didn't survive. Of course, the fleets didn't patronize it because they had their own fuel depots.

Several years ago I worked in a shop in the Texas panhandle that serviced large engines that powered irrigation systems. Most of our work was natural gas powered engines. The engines had long lives and were very dependable. The difference was instead of using CNG, they had gas lines run to them. Easy for stationary engines.

[dznf0g]

Yeah, that free fuel is great. My, now deceased, Uncle had a very small "grasshopper" oil well on his farm. When the oil company was negotiating the lease he made them run a gas line to the house instead of burning it off. He heated the house, the chicken coop and maybe a couple other sheds with free natural gas for many years.

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Yeah, that free fuel is great. My, now deceased, Uncle had a very small "grasshopper" oil well on his farm. When the oil company was negotiating the lease he made them run a gas line to the house instead of burning it off. He heated the house, the chicken coop and maybe a couple other sheds with free natural gas for many years.

Trust me, it was anything but free.

It wasn't oil or gas country, it was farm country. And those turbocharged 800 CID engines burned lots of gas running wide open 24/7.

I'm all for pushing natural gas. Maybe increased demand will make the royalties from my share of my grandfather's mineral rights go up. Last year I got almost $13.00.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by vswingfield

Trust me, it was anything but free.

It wasn't oil or gas country, it was farm country. And those turbocharged 800 CID engines burned lots of gas running wide open 24/7.

I'm all for pushing natural gas. Maybe increased demand will make the royalties from my share of my grandfather's mineral rights go up. Last year I got almost $13.00.

Oh, my bad. I thought the shop was out in the oil patch.....never mind.

[woodja]

For nat gas powered vehicles it's not if but when. As an investment it's not too early but how long will you hold dead money waiting for the government to get on board.
For the nat gas highway check out Clean Energy (CLNE) a company that is building the infrastructure & Westport Innovations (WPRT) a company that is partnering with Caterpiller to convert diesel engines, mainly for over the road trucks.
Pete