Chrysler 300 - The Saga Continues

[gmw photos]

Originally Posted by mstephens

New Info

I checked the levels. It was down about 1 Qt of coolant.

I plugged in my ODBII reader, started the car and immediately got this message:

P0117 - Engine Coolant Temperature Circuit Low Input

So the question remains, where is the coolant going ? I go back to my earlier thoughts from several days ago:

into crankcase
out the exhaust
out of the engine onto the floor

...so, pull the dipstick ? What does the oil look like ?
...smell and feel around the exhaust ?
... get the flashlight out and really seriously take a good look under the hood ?

[ggoat!!!]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

The gurgling makes me believe there are gasses in the cooling system. So does the very rapid rise in coolant temp...form hot to very hot in short time described above. It's a long distance, sight unseen diagnosis, but I really think it's a head gasket or cracked head/block. You should see some lowering of cold coolant level though....and smell coolant at the exhaust.

Rich is RIGHT on the money. I had this same scenario with a Dodge Caravan that I used to tow a Scamp with. Drove me nuts until I realized I had the exact problem Rich is describing. A TINY exhaust leak into the coolant passages. TINY.

Keep in mind there was NO white smoke in the exhaust...the amount of coolant I would lose was SO small as to be deemed (in error, in hindsight) to be "insignificant," there was NO oil in the water, and NO water in the oil. No external leaks, no sweet exhaust smell.

The van would run fine, then spike the temperature in literally SECONDS with no warning. Air bubbles in the reservoir were the first sign; gurgling. I tried everything...flushing, new thermostat, new t-stat housing and gaskets, new radiator, new fan, manual fan override switch...but nothing could stop the reality that I had a tiny head gasket leak. The problem was intermittent and only so very slight such that a tiny bit of super hot exhaust gases was entering the cooling system usually not causing much of a problem however under load or increased temperatures the temperature gauge would rise a quarter inch in seconds. I always drove with my eyes glued to that gauge.

An interesting thing to note when you have exhaust in the coolant...exhaust gas does NOT mix with antifreeze; it turns into a bubbly foamy vapor that forms air pockets in the engine leading to MASSIVE hot spots that surely take thousands of miles off of the engine. Exhaust gas in PLAIN WATER is MUCH more stable; as my Caravan got worse, I couldn't use antifreeze anymore as it would foam IMMEDIATELY. Straight water (while boiling sooner, but under pressure the boiling point rises) was the only way I could drive it with that head gasket leak as it wouldn't foam up like the antifreeze mixture; sure, it would boil faster but at least I could get down the street.

If you can't find someone competent who knows how to truly troubleshoot this (AutoZone will loan you the tester for FREE), you may want to get rid of this car. My Caravan eventually overheated going up a steep 1 mile climb from Pine to Strawberry in Arizona. An air pocket had formed around the temperature sensor in the head so that the temperature gauge stayed "normal" however the engine was basically cooking itself...no warning that the temperature was up this time until I got to the top of the hill and heard massive pinging and loss of power. The result was that in that short period of time the massive heat had warped the heads, blew the gaskets, and required an entire engine rebuild...down to the rods.

Here's the kicker most don't realize...

When an engine overheats several times to dramatic temperatures, the transmission is usually devastatingly damaged. The tranny is bolted right up to the super-hot overheated engine, with many made of aluminum nowadays which leads to very fast heat transfer...so if the engine (not just the coolant) is severely overheated, you can bet that tranny is REALLY hot too...not to mention that even if you have an auxillary transmission cooler the transmission fluid STILL goes through the cooling tank in the radiator, which when the engine overheats that boiling super hot molten coolant is flowing through the SAME radiator, instantly degrading the transmission fluid whilst at the same time super-heating it, flowing overheated devastatingly degraded tranny fluid through a super hot overworked transmission.

The result on my Caravan? When the engine overheated, as stated it was rebuilt down to the rods. Less than two weeks later the transmission (which was ALWAYS trouble-free and had been serviced a month earlier) failed going up a slight hill in Hurricane, Utah due to the heat damage it sustained when the engine fried. Three weeks and THREE transmission failures/rebuilds later (by Cottman Transmission-AVOID at all costs, btw), I was left stranded on Hwy 12 literally in the middle of nowhere about 50 miles outside of Escalante, Utah...van and trailer in the middle of the highway, me walking aimlessly down an empty desolate road with no phone service waiting for SOMEONE to pass. Not fun. An eventual tow to a real shop in Panguitch, Utah and I bought a NEW rebuilt transmission and I was on my way back to Louisiana. Once I got back home I bought a much more capable tow vehicle.

Save yourself a LOT of time and grief. You will likely never trust this tow vehicle again...especially not your wife. Your family's safety is not worth the risk or novelty of towing with a car that you have to extensively modify to tow safely with. If your dealer is so clueless that they can't figure out if you have a tiny head gasket leak (some are VERY difficult to find as explained above) then by all means get rid of this car and get something designed to tow that much weight in the first place. Chrysler...been there, done that. I never towed with mine again.

Be safe!

[mstephens]

Reading up on the P0117 code, it seems that it won't be the cause of overheating, but rather a result of overheating.

I ran the car w/o trailer this am. After 15 min. of driving it crept up to 230F. 205F is supposed to be normal. The fan comes on, and at 230 the fan is in high speed, but it wont cool down by idling. I could tell that it would o higher, but I didn't want to get stuck again. I am satisfied that it is NOT normal to heat up to 230 just cruising around town in 70F weather. Since the fans are coming on, I am now pretty sure the t-stat is not opening correctly. The debug page says to feel the upper rad hose. It should be real hot if it is circulating. It was not "real hot" - but it was hot. I could hold my hand on it for about 5 sec.

I dipped the oil five times and saw nothing odd. Just oil. I smelled the exhaust and it smelled very normal. No drips under the hood. Maybe that quart of coolant went out the overflow onto the freeway?

[mstephens]

Originally Posted by ggoat!!!

Rich is RIGHT on the money. I had this same scenario with a Dodge Caravan that I used to tow a Scamp with. Drove me nuts until I realized I had the exact problem Rich is describing. A TINY exhaust leak into the coolant passages. TINY.

That's a pretty scary story. I've been watching the big reservoir and I don't see bubbles, or foam. When I had the car shut off after yesterday's overheat, I heard some gurgling. Which to me sounded like fluid going out of the res.

So, if the tester is available at Autozone, I suppose this is easy for the dealer to check, right?

Since the car is under warranty, does the dealer have any incentive NOT to do various repairs? I would imagine they want to find something to fix?

[ggoat!!!]

Originally Posted by mstephens

That's a pretty scary story. I've been watching the big reservoir and I don't see bubbles, or foam. When I had the car shut off after yesterday's overheat, I heard some gurgling. Which to me sounded like fluid going out of the res.

So, if the tester is available at Autozone, I suppose this is easy for the dealer to check, right?

Since the car is under warranty, does the dealer have any incentive NOT to do various repairs? I would imagine they want to find something to fix?

The tester is SIMPLE for ANYONE to use. All you do is suck up some coolant, add a special solution, and look for a color change that detects exhaust gas:



OEM/Block Tester (27145) | Block Tester | AutoZone.com

You can do this yourself...I would go down to AutoZone and do it in the parking lot right now.

Dealers DO have incentive to fix things; that's how they make money. Whether the techs (not mechanics) there are competent enough to have a clue what to look for...well, that's another story.

[mstephens]

Great. I'll see if my local AZ has one. They are just down the road.

[jdalrymple]

Blown head gasket.

Block test will confirm is my bet. Don't suck coolant into the glass tube of the test kit. Just gases above the coolant with the engine good and warm. It is the carbon monoxide in the exhaust gases that have contaminated the coolant that cause the reagent in the test kit to turn colors.





Regards,

JD

[GCinSC2]

I diagnosed a head gasket leak about 18 years ago with an older school test. Cylinder leak down or just a cyl pressure test. Cylinder Leak-Down Tester This is just an example of the tool. IIRC you pull the spark plugs, set the test cylinder on its TDC and apply shop air to the cylinder. On TDC it doesn't move, valves closed and I wound up seeing the results in the coolant level of the radiator. Each cyl is tested individually. Now the car was actually a Dodge Caravan 1985 2.2L and the process was pretty simple. I fixed it myself and actually converted it from a carb engine to fuel injected in the process. Really helped to have a friend give you all the parts. Ran great after getting all 4 cyl's sealed and a much improved fuel system.

[Bruce B]

Isn't this car under warranty?


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[65CV]

CO Testers can confirm that a Head Gasket is shot, but in my experience, can't confirm that it is good.

I helped my son battle a dealer over a head gasket issue. We bought that same tester and got a negative reading. The car would run fine, then suddenly shoot to 245. Seemed like the gasket would only leak under certain conditions.

Eventually, we convinced the dealer to replace the head gasket under warranty and it's been fine since. Never did get the CO tester to confirm the leak.

[Bob4x4]

The gas anaylizer on a smog machine is more accurate and easier just dont get the tip into the coolant.

[mstephens]

Well, my Autozone doesn't have such a testor, and never has had one. So, being late on a Sunday, I didn't go further since tomorrow I will have it at the dealer anyway (Yes, warranty).

Just in case this wasn't clear until now, it overheats W/O the trailer. On the way back from Autozone it hit 260F and the alarm went off just as I opened the garage door.

My bumper to bumper warranty has 1,600 more miles. So, I will be pushing like mad for maximum replacements. I am typing up a letter to the service manager for tomorrow explaining how dangerous this condition is, and that they failed to diagnose it correctly once already. Polite, but firm.

Thanks to all of you for your help. And yes, we are now talking over the idea of getting it fixed and then selling it immediately to move on. Trust is hard to get with a car and when it is gone it's hard to get back. Much depends on how definitive the fix is. Of course, I will have to undo the shocks, brake controller and receiver, in order to sell it. Another expense.

[ggoat!!!]

Be careful how much info you give to your dealer about you towing so much weight with this car. Most dealers will do ANYTHING to void your warranty; if you DO in fact have a head gasket leak or a warped head they can easily try to state it was because you tried to tow something that the car was not designed for (even though it has NOTHING to do with what's wrong); I would be very weary of letting them know you overheated the car pulling a large trailer up a climb. I wouldn't offer that information...even though the car overheats on its own. Don't give them any info they can hang you with. I hope they don't notice the extensive hitch work and air shocks...hopefully they are clueless about those too...I would hate for them to try to pawn whatever is wrong with the car on you. Be careful how much info you give them about your trailer...don't lie, but don't offer the fact that you were towing something greater than the owner's manual states you can.

Good luck!

[dznf0g]

What goat said. Leave it out of the conversation. Do you have a big honkin' receiver out back? Or one that would be within the rating of the car?

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[perryg114]

Trade it in on a real tow vehicle. It sounds like you are whipping a dead horse. Get out of it and get out of it fast. Best case is the overheating has accelerated the wear on a brand new vehicle. Worst case is you got a lemon and it will never be right. It sounds like you are asking too much of vehicle that may have deficits on a good day. Sorry for my lack of tact but I have had a glass or two. I think that you are going to have problems pulling a trailer with a vehicle that has trouble pulling itself. It you lived in FL where there are no hills to speak of you might be ok but in CA where there are real mountains I think you are asking too much. Dodge is not known for over engineering their vehicles. The reliability ratings back me up.

Perry

[mstephens]

Remember, this car was in their shop last Monday when they replaced the coolant reservoir. That work was done under warranty. I have made no mention about towing anything, and I won't because the car overheats on it's own with no trailer. I have proven that to myself twice already. Yes, there is a 2" receiver mounted with the welded strut going up to the front x-member.

[mstephens]

Originally Posted by perryg114

Trade it in on a real tow vehicle. It sounds like you are whipping a dead horse. Get out of it and get out of it fast. Best case is the overheating has accelerated the wear on a brand new vehicle. Worst case is you got a lemon and it will never be right. It sounds like you are asking too much of vehicle that may have deficits on a good day. Sorry for my lack of tact but I have had a glass or two. I think that you are going to have problems pulling a trailer with a vehicle that has trouble pulling itself. It you lived in FL where there are no hills to speak of you might be ok but in CA where there are real mountains I think you are asking too much. Dodge is not known for over engineering their vehicles. The reliability ratings back me up.

Perry

Hey, I know that when one gambles and it doesn't work out, the only thing for lunch is crow. I don't mind any of the comments, I don't take it personal. I am trying to remain logical. If something definitive could be found, and it tests out OK, I might be able to continue with it. If not, out it goes and I'll be looking for a GMC Sierra with my crow. Life has risks. Win some lose some.

[Alphonse]

This story reminds me of a Chevrolet diesel truck in the eighties that my father had. It ate head gaskets regularly and the way we diagnosed it the first time was via the coolant gurgling. It would get worse when you warmed it up.

[ggoat!!!]

I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful, but I am speaking from experience...even though I towed a 13ft Scamp with my Caravan, after the 2nd or 3rd rebuild by Cottman (truly incompetent) they started making overtones that I was "towing waaaay too much with that van." Yes, the Caravan struggled with my 13ft Scamp...2nd gear foot-to-the-floor 40mph was the norm up a hill against a strong headwind. But, that was because of a lack of power...nothing to do with the transmission, which BTW was the sturdy 3spd mechanical non-overdrive old-school cargo van unit, not the fancy trouble-prone electronically-controlled 4spd that many Caravans were junked because of. But, when they kept rebuilding the tranny wrong, they started to look for excuses...the trailer was one of them.

I also tow with what people say you "shouldn't" tow with...a 2006 Chevrolet SSR 6spd manual LS2. I have modified it slightly for towing (4.56 rear end gears with aluminum finned differential cooler, Corvette LS7 clutch, custom air shocks, Class III custom hitch, PCM tuned for maximum torque, different tire ratios with stiffer sidewalls, K&N, etc). Most extensively, I have upgraded the factory cooling system (ironically) as it is the weak link in the SSR's towing capability (custom Ron Davis racing radiator, dual Spal hi-velocity fans and an auxillary pusher fan for a total of 3 fans with manual override control, got rid of the Dex-Clog and went with old fashioned Prestone). However, even though I have had NO problems (the best tow vehicle I have EVER had), when I have had to bring it to the dealer for anything I NEVER let them think I tow anything more than my little Scamp. It is still under extended warranty...and I don't want to give them ANY ammunition should I have any sort of failure with the vehicle. They WOULD use it against me.

[Denis4x4]

Originally Posted by mstephens

Hey, I know that when one gambles and it doesn't work out, the only thing for lunch is crow. I don't mind any of the comments, I don't take it personal. I am trying to remain logical. If something definitive could be found, and it tests out OK, I might be able to continue with it. If not, out it goes and I'll be looking for a GMC Sierra with my crow. Life has risks. Win some lose some.

Can't find the photo of my 2012 Silvarado on the rollback with the AS on the flat bed hitch. Came from the factory with a kink in the transmission cooling line. Asked for a new transmission and was told that the new policy from GM was rebuilds only. Took a beating on that truck as it had less than 2000 miles on it when I traded it in on the 2013 Grand Cherokee. For the record, the GC has more HP and torque than the chevy with the 6.0 gas engine. And it's a lot nicer as a daily driver than a crew cab!