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02-28-2014, 07:34 PM
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#261
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Patriotic
1973 23' Safari
North of Boston
, Massachusetts
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,546
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not sure I understand about replacing the heads--if the problem was because of the design of the heads, and they're going to replace with the same thing...itsn't the problem just going to come back? Or do we not really know the root cause of the problem?
I've been browsing Durangos...most have the same 6, but a 5-speed trans. I wonder how different that is? The Hemi models have a 6 speed....starting 2014, they're both getting an 8. Would that be the same one you already have in the 300?
__________________
Air:291
Wbcci: 3752
'73 Safari 23'
'00 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 QC
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02-28-2014, 07:39 PM
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#262
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Rivet Master
1984 34' International
Toronto
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,499
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The Durango also has a fairly high tow rating on that engine - over 6000lbs.
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02-28-2014, 08:07 PM
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#263
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'06 75th Winick Prototype
2006 19' International CCD
1968 22' Safari
The Swamps of Hell
, Lousy-Anna
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCinSC2
Totally unrelated to mstephens overheating issue.
ggoat described torque converter locking and unlocking and compared it to a manual transmission clutch. I'm NOT challenging his analogy but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not use the a manual transmission clutch pedal as an attempt to increase torque, HP, passing power or anything. The only time the clutch can be used in a partial slip mode is during the initial standing start to get the vehicle in motion and maneuvering as in backing into your site. For maximum clutch life, minimize the amount of time a clutch is being slipped. This time is easiest described as the time that your foot is coming up off of the floorboard but the clutch is not yet fully engaged (foot completely off of the pedal), RPM in (from engine) is GREATER then RPM out to transmission.
Clutches create tremendous heat if only partially engaged, easily over 1000 DEG F is easily possible and very damaging to the clutch.
I claim no special knowledge of the inner workings of an automatic transmission. I do claim knowledge of automotive and pickup truck clutches, it is has been my sole profession for over 30 years.
Wishing mstephens a successful repair.
Gary
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Hi Gary...
I definitely wasn't inferring that anyone should ever partially slip a clutch; I was trying to point out, as you did much more eloquently than I, that slipping a clutch was a BAD thing...and I used the inherent "badness" of slipping a clutch as an analogy to letting a torque converter constantly slip. Both generate tons of heat; both are BAD.
Thanks for clarifying,
Jeff
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02-28-2014, 08:13 PM
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#264
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
K.C.
, Missouri
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasduess
The Durango also has a fairly high tow rating on that engine - over 6000lbs.
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Which engine ? The V6 or the Hemi V8 ?
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02-28-2014, 08:18 PM
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#265
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Rivet Master
1979 23' Safari
1954 29' Liner
Orange
, California
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,849
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The V6, the Hemi has 7200 or 7400 depending on 2wd or 4wd.
But remember, the Durango is marketed as a tow vehicle. But I digress to another towing thread.
Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw photos
Which engine ? The V6 or the Hemi V8 ?
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__________________
Bill Kerfoot, WBCCI/VAC/CAC/El Camino Real Unit #5223
Just my personal opinion
1973 Dodge W200 PowerWagon, 1977 Lincoln Continental, 2014 Dodge Durango
1979 23' Safari, and 1954 29' Double Door Liner Orange, CA
https://billbethsblog.blogspot.com/
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02-28-2014, 08:34 PM
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#266
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,656
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A torque converter is designed to multiply torque. When the TC is locked there is no torque multiplication. A locking torque converter is there ONLY to save fuel at cruising speeds under light torque demand. You WANT torque multiplication while towing much more of the time than when solo. If heat is a concern, due to high torque demand, consult someone for the proper cooling mods.
Remember, before the early 80's there were no locking converters, and we did fine....just wasted a lot of fuel.
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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02-28-2014, 09:28 PM
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#267
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Rivet Master
1981 31' Excella II
New Market
, Alabama
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,145
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The need for torque amplification goes away when you have many gears and you can operate the engine near peak torque. Also the older transmissions had coolers that could remove enough heat from the fluid to keep it from boiling. A slipping clutch is the same thing. It also amplifies torque to get you rolling and then you can let off the clutch. Both a TC and a dry clutch use friction to amplify torque. The TC can slip indefinitely as long as you can remove the heat it produces.
Perry
Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g
A torque converter is designed to multiply torque. When the TC is locked there is no torque multiplication. A locking torque converter is there ONLY to save fuel at cruising speeds under light torque demand. You WANT torque multiplication while towing much more of the time than when solo. If heat is a concern, due to high torque demand, consult someone for the proper cooling mods.
Remember, before the early 80's there were no locking converters, and we did fine....just wasted a lot of fuel.
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02-28-2014, 09:39 PM
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#268
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Rivet Master
1991 34' Excella
1963 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Central
, Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g
A torque converter is designed to multiply torque. When the TC is locked there is no torque multiplication...
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You are 100% correct. A college course in mechanical fluid dynamics actually goes thru the steps showing how its possible to input 100ftlbs of torque and output more torque (at a lower rpm), completely different from slipping a clutch where torque in equals torque out at a lower rpm plus a bunch of heat.
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02-28-2014, 09:44 PM
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#269
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Patriotic
1973 23' Safari
North of Boston
, Massachusetts
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkerfoot
The V6, the Hemi has 7200 or 7400 depending on 2wd or 4wd.
But remember, the Durango is marketed as a tow vehicle. But I digress to another towing thread.
Bill
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6200 with the 3.6 (5spd) --but no difference between 2/4wd;
72/74 with the Hemi--6spd
This year, both have an 8 spd....no change in ratings.
I dug into the owner's manual, and its easy to miss, but there is the statement: vehicles not factory equipped with trailer tow package are limited to 3500lbs (350 tongue weight).
I was doing "build and price" on one of the models, and the tow package only shows that it includes a hitch and wiring harness, for 1000 bucks.
if you select a "lesser" model, and add the package--still 1000 bucks and it includes this:
- 220-Amp Alternator
- 7 and 4 Pin Wiring Harness
- Class IV Receiver Hitch
- Full Size Spare Tire
- Heavy Duty Engine Cooling
- Rear Load Leveling Suspension
- Steel Spare Wheel
__________________
Air:291
Wbcci: 3752
'73 Safari 23'
'00 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 QC
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02-28-2014, 09:49 PM
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#270
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Patriotic
1973 23' Safari
North of Boston
, Massachusetts
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g
Remember, before the early 80's there were no locking converters, and we did fine....just wasted a lot of fuel.
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I remember working at a car dealer in the 80's, and that was kind of a hot buzzword on the brochures: Lock-up Torque converter (ooooh! )
Now, they're just "torque converters".
Kind of like a COLOR tv. Then they were just TVs again for a while, and now we have HDTV. I'm sure at some point in the not too distant future, we'll have "TVs" again.
__________________
Air:291
Wbcci: 3752
'73 Safari 23'
'00 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 QC
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02-28-2014, 10:53 PM
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#271
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Rivet Master
2013 25' Flying Cloud
Cat City
, California
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
not sure I understand about replacing the heads--if the problem was because of the design of the heads, and they're going to replace with the same thing...itsn't the problem just going to come back? Or do we not really know the root cause of the problem?
I've been browsing Durangos...most have the same 6, but a 5-speed trans. I wonder how different that is? The Hemi models have a 6 speed....starting 2014, they're both getting an 8. Would that be the same one you already have in the 300?
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The new heads are a new design. The old had a design flaw.
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03-01-2014, 01:38 AM
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#272
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Rivet Master
2005 19' Safari
GLENDALE
, AZ
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,453
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Data extracted from Consumer Reports Annual Auto Issue (April 2014), for Chrysler 300 (V6), "Used Car Verdict", by model year:
2002 = N/A
2003 = N/A
2004 = N/A
2005 = 3
2006 = 3
2007 = 3
2008 = 4
2009 = *
2010 = *
2011 = 3
2012 = 2
2013 = 3
New Car Prediction = 3
==========
Ratings:
5 = Much better than average
4 = Better than average
3 = Average
2 = Worse than average
1 = Much worse than average
* = Insufficient data
N/A = Model wasn't made that year
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03-01-2014, 05:42 AM
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#273
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Site Team
2007 30' Classic S/O
Somewhere
, South Carolina
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,436
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Jeff,
Really didn't read it as if you were recommending the practice, but sometimes folks can miss read or miss remember what they read. And thinking about it, the engine is the source of all of the torque and RPM if you allow it to slip, then you are reducing the Torque and RPM going into the trans and that wasted energy becomes heat from the induced slipping. Advice for a manual trans tow vehicle, if you need power to hold a hill, downshift to better match road speed to the engine and just take it easy going up that big hill.
The hard part would be trying to explain the Lockup Piston inside a torque converter. Did you know they have friction material on the engine side and a torsion damper built in to it too? At least the ones I saw taken apart.
mstephens,
Any chance to get a pic of the old head?
Gary
__________________
S/OS #001 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 5.9L 6 Speed
16" Michelins, Hi Spec Wheels, Max Brake, Dexter 4 Piston Disc Brakes, Carslile Actuator, Equal-I-Zer, Dill TPMS. Campfire cook. BMV-712. DEMCO 21K Lb Cast Iron coupler
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03-01-2014, 06:15 AM
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#274
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perryg114
The need for torque amplification goes away when you have many gears and you can operate the engine near peak torque. Also the older transmissions had coolers that could remove enough heat from the fluid to keep it from boiling. A slipping clutch is the same thing. It also amplifies torque to get you rolling and then you can let off the clutch. Both a TC and a dry clutch use friction to amplify torque. The TC can slip indefinitely as long as you can remove the heat it produces.
Perry
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Not true, Perry, with all due respect. But I would suggest another thread to discuss automatics,torque converters, multiple gears and engine design and output, if we want to explore that.
I know that (at least I think I read a comment in the past) you, and others believe a stick is better for towing, but it's not, actually....assuming a robust design for high load application.
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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03-01-2014, 06:17 AM
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#275
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
I remember working at a car dealer in the 80's, and that was kind of a hot buzzword on the brochures: Lock-up Torque converter (ooooh! )
Now, they're just "torque converters".
Kind of like a COLOR tv. Then they were just TVs again for a while, and now we have HDTV. I'm sure at some point in the not too distant future, we'll have "TVs" again.
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Perfect example of technology not being in place for a desired outcome. Locking torque converters have never gone away....just been pretty much perfected....by electronics mostly.
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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03-01-2014, 06:35 AM
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#276
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Rivet Master
1981 31' Excella II
New Market
, Alabama
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,145
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03-01-2014, 06:44 AM
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#277
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,656
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So, after reading, I don't see where the confusion lies.
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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03-01-2014, 07:09 AM
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#278
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
K.C.
, Missouri
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 585
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Quote:
.....snip.....
I know that (at least I think I read a comment in the past) you, and others believe a stick is better for towing, but it's not, actually....assuming a robust design for high load application.
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...all those eaton/fuller roadrangers.....so little time
...please note the smiley ! not trying to pick a fight.... !
( I'm one of those "others", most likely.... )
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03-01-2014, 07:17 AM
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#279
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw photos
...all those eaton/fuller roadrangers.....so little time
...please note the smiley ! not trying to pick a fight.... !
( I'm one of those "others", most likely.... )
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I know. Initial cost of stick vs. auto (think Allison), PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED drivers, multi-speed axles, etc. come into play there. However, the trend is working it's way up to big tractors to equip with autos. Heard an ad on the radio the other day for recruiting drivers. They touted AUTOMATICS.
My fleets can't find drivers who can drive sticks anymore, without eating clutches...and worse.
The trend is no more sticks in PUs, and it's working it's way well through the mediums, and starting in the semi tractors. I'd bet, within 10 years, there will be no more 18 wheelers produced with sticks. Fuel economy is driving that as well as driver comfort/ability.
Again, I suggest another thread.
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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03-01-2014, 07:33 AM
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#280
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Rivet Master
2013 25' Flying Cloud
Cat City
, California
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCinSC2
Jeff,
mstephens,
Any chance to get a pic of the old head?
Gary
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No. They don't let anyone in the back. And, I have already had so many tussles with the SM, that they wouldn't be doing me any favors.
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