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Old 11-07-2007, 04:06 PM   #29
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Can-Am Andy Can

Here is a post from 2003 where Can-AM Andy explains what they do. It is very enlightening.

It is a very long post and has 2 parts to it.


http://www.airforums.com/forums/32686-post77.html


http://www.airforums.com/forums/32688-post78.html
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Old 11-07-2007, 04:16 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertF
I think you have to drive a combination to assess its stabilty and controllability.

Many cars have brakes that are virtually as big as pickup truck brakes, with a lot less weight to stop. The biggest difference in specifications is often rotor thickness, which may be related to heat resistance, or maybe being able to machine the rotors when replacing pads.

Some people simply prefer to drive cars rather than trucks, especially if the tow vehicle must double as a daily driver.
I think that there is a considerable difference between driving a car and towing or in this senario, moving a trailer with one, particularly when it comes to towing a 8000 to 9000lb RV as Can Am suggests with a unibody, in most cases front drive.

Most of the cars I see CanAm demoing have factory tow ratings far less than what they are actually being connected to. I find it interesting that folks may look at factory established tow ratings as some sort of propaganda or marketing thing and go off and tow large trailers of more than 2x the factory stated tow rating. These vehicles were NEVER designed for this kind of application. To do these things doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me, but as long as it makes sense to others. Me, I have a daily driver and a different tow vehicle. Why, because I like the car for daily driving and other smaller tasks better suited for the car, but have the truck to move large loads, cargo and to tow.

What I find particularly interesting is that while the perception is that Americans typically want big, big, big, the Canadians are on the far opposite to that. Seems to me that every Can Am conversation on this forum for the past 4 years I've been on it has been a Canadian (no offense meant) telling us that we're simply crazy to be towing with vehicles the factories specifically build for these applications.

In the end, we will simply have to agree to disagree as we have for the last 4 years.
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Old 11-07-2007, 04:25 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
Albert, with all due respect, I think you are way off here. First of all the 300c is nowhere near the geographic ballpark in which you compare it. Though others might not agree, there is no way I'd agree that the overall drivetrains that are put into pickups (which I extrapolated from your Duramax comparision) are less or equal to that of a V6 passenger car, namely the 300.

It goes so much farther than engine, power, etc. I'm not suggesting that one needs a Mack truck to tow a Bambi.
Thanks for inviting the comparison! First, I should clarify that I'm talking about an Airstream trailer, not a tall SOB with a slide. Also, I'm not making stability claims, but simply comparing hill climbing ability.

Based on torque output at a given engine rpm, gearing, tire diameter, and total weight, my calculation is that a 300C would tow a 9000 lb 34' at 60 mph (at sea level) up a 3% grade in 4th gear (2000 rpm), up a 5.4% grade in 3rd (2800 rpm) and up a 9.9% grade in 2nd (4400 rpm).

A DMax towing the same trailer should do about 4.8% in 4th at 60 mph (2500 rpm), 8% at 50 mph in 3rd (2900 rpm), and 11% at 40 mph in 2nd (3000 rpm). Keep in mind that this combination will be at least 3500 lbs heavier than with the 300C, and that aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance significantly greater.

A V6 Nissan (say a Maxima or G35), also with a 5 speed automatic, should be able to tow a 6,000 Airstream up a 3% grade at 60 mph in 4th (2600 rpm), a 6.5% grade in 3rd (3800 rpm), and a 12% grade at 45 mph in 2nd (4400 rpm).

These numbers are theoretical, although I've confirmed and fine-tuned my spreadsheet with my own combination. While power, torque, gearing, tire sizes, curb weights, etc., are easy to obtain, aerodynamic and driveline drag require some assumptions to be made with the help of online aerodynamic drag calculators. I could very well be off on these figures. However, I believe they are useful for comparison purposes.
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Old 11-07-2007, 04:28 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmreilly10000
Here is a post from 2003 where Can-AM Andy explains what they do. It is very enlightening.

It is a very long post and has 2 parts to it.


http://www.airforums.com/forums/32686-post77.html


http://www.airforums.com/forums/32688-post78.html
I read both posts and find them very interesting and informative. I think the Canam people know what they are talking about and invest more energy and time in understanding tow vehicles than most dealers...by a huge difference.

I think all would benefit from reading these posts...at least those who are intersted in learning and hearing another opinion.

Thanks...Tom R
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Old 11-07-2007, 04:34 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
What I find particularly interesting is that while the perception is that Americans typically want big, big, big, the Canadians are on the far opposite to that. Seems to me that every Can Am conversation on this forum for the past 4 years I've been on it has been a Canadian (no offense meant) telling us that we're simply crazy to be towing with vehicles the factories specifically build for these applications.

In the end, we will simply have to agree to disagree as we have for the last 4 years.
Hey Twinkie...have you gone back and read the two posts by Andy at Canam...at a minimum they seem well studied in there tow vehicle analysis...not sure others have such experience.

I don't think there is a right and wrong on this...I think they have some good input that warrants more consideration in the general debate.

I guess many will choose to ignore Canam's theory and practical experience and application history...that's probably OK too.

Thanks...Tom R
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Old 11-07-2007, 04:36 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
Me, I have a daily driver and a different tow vehicle. Why, because I like the car for daily driving and other smaller tasks better suited for the car, but have the truck to move large loads, cargo and to tow.

What I find particularly interesting is that while the perception is that Americans typically want big, big, big, the Canadians are on the far opposite to that. Seems to me that every Can Am conversation on this forum for the past 4 years I've been on it has been a Canadian (no offense meant) telling us that we're simply crazy to be towing with vehicles the factories specifically build for these applications.

In the end, we will simply have to agree to disagree as we have for the last 4 years.
Perhaps cost is more of a factor to us Canadians. Fuel is more heavily taxed here, income taxes are higher, sales taxes are generally higher, and there is simply less disposable income to put into a vehicle, even a used one, that is only used part time. Over the long term, pickups are expensive vehicles, even compared to relatively expensive import sedans.

I don't think anyone's saying you're crazy. It just that there's more than one way to approach the question, and the alternative works surprisingly well.
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Old 11-07-2007, 04:36 PM   #35
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One reason us Canadians opt for smaller is better is fuel prices. Stateside you're complaining about $3/gallon. That works out to about 75cents a litre, we're paying $1 a litre if not more.

On a side note, had an interesting conversion with a diesel mechanic, talking about folks wanting more and more power out of their diesel trucks. 500HP is not unheard of. Well the big rigs that run down the road for a living are usually running between 250HP and 350HP, funny how they can get by with a measly 250HP and we need more and more...hehe
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Old 11-07-2007, 05:11 PM   #36
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Quote:
ask them about most states' laws requiring the tow vehicle being able to safely stop the trailer without using the trailer's brakes.
I'd like to know about these laws. I have yet to encounter any like this in my looking for them on the web.

CanAm RV does on the ground testing backed up by years of experience and good theoretical knowledge. From the various challenges I have seen (and these have been so vicious as to drive Andy off several forums, including this one), there is no reason to believe the dealer outfits rigs in any way that violates Canadian or US towing laws nor, for that matter, violates vehicle warranties.

You have a reputable dealer with a good track record and many satisfied customers. It is a dealer that actually puts their ideas to test out on the track before they offer them to customers. Despite this, look at the denial.

Skepticism is always a good thing but I think what has been seen here goes well past any reasonable level.
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Old 11-07-2007, 05:34 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
You have a reputable dealer with a good track record and many satisfied customers. It is a dealer that actually puts their ideas to test out on the track before they offer them to customers. Despite this, look at the denial.

Skepticism is always a good thing but I think what has been seen here goes well past any reasonable level.
I agree...their concepts are proven enough to warrant a good open disucssion here...any other dealers working as hard as Canam appears to determine best TVs for their customers?

BTW...we are mostly gentlemen (and ladies) on this forum...on my Land Cruiser forum one of the posters called them liars and said the TV (some that Canam cites on their web site) would blow the engines within a few miles.

Thanks...Tom R
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Old 11-07-2007, 05:50 PM   #38
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I'll jump in for a quick observation:

In one of the 'high-end' RV Resorts here in Naples that I service on a regular basis, I saw a fairly new 34' Classic sitting on a lot with a Hensley, and a Dodge Magnum sitting in front of it.

My first reaction was 'I wonder where he is storing his TV, as he surely isn't towing that beast with a Magnum'. Well, a couple of weeks later, the trailer was gone from the lot and so was the Magnum. I happened to be headed for a nearby RV park when I sew a really big Airstream being towed by what looked like a reeeaaallly small TV.

Yup, you guessed it! It was the 34 being pulled by the Magnum. Canadian plates.

The next time I was in that RV Park, I stopped by and asked the owner who set up his trailer and TV and how he liked it. He said it was done at Can AmRV and he towed it from north Ontario to Southwest FL every year for the past 3 years and loved the way the set-up worked.

Just thought it made for an interesting observation to this thread .YRMV
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Old 11-07-2007, 05:57 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster
I'll jump in for a quick observation:

In one of the 'high-end' RV Resorts here in Naples that I service on a regular basis, I saw a fairly new 34' Classic sitting on a lot with a Hensley, and a Dodge Magnum sitting in front of it.

My first reaction was 'I wonder where he is storing his TV, as he surely isn't towing that beast with a Magnum'. Well, a couple of weeks later, the trailer was gone from the lot and so was the Magnum. I happened to be headed for a nearby RV park when I sew a really big Airstream being towed by what looked like a reeeaaallly small TV.

Yup, you guessed it! It was the 34 being pulled by the Magnum. Canadian plates.

The next time I was in that RV Park, I stopped by and asked the owner who set up his trailer and TV and how he liked it. He said it was done at Can AmRV and he towed it from north Ontario to Southwest FL every year for the past 3 years and loved the way the set-up worked.

Just thought it made for an interesting observation to this thread .YRMV
Thanks Lew...it is interesting...and worth further discussion with those who have a CanAmRV TV set up...you out there????

Thanks Tom R
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:38 PM   #40
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I went on a coast to coast caravan and there was a can am set-up that involved a 30' unit and a toyota minivan. They were one of the first out in the mornings and usually the last one in. One day I caught up with this rig on the highway and I had to let him go as he was going faster than I cared to drive. He crossed the rockies and never had a problem. We did have to leave a brand new ford in Canada as he lost his transmission. I saw another Can_am rig in Mrytle beach it was a cadilac towing a widebody 34'. I talked with the owner and he said he couldn't be happier that it towed good and was very comfortable. I use a mega cab cummins 6 speed but there is more than one way to get where you are going and it seems to work for them.
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Old 11-08-2007, 12:21 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

What I find particularly interesting is that while the perception is that Americans typically want big, big, big, the Canadians are on the far opposite to that.
not sure about that... and as already said some other reasons could lead that perception to a fact.
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Old 11-08-2007, 12:43 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster
I'll jump in for a quick observation:

In one of the 'high-end' RV Resorts here in Naples that I service on a regular basis, I saw a fairly new 34' Classic sitting on a lot with a Hensley, and a Dodge Magnum sitting in front of it.

My first reaction was 'I wonder where he is storing his TV, as he surely isn't towing that beast with a Magnum'. Well, a couple of weeks later, the trailer was gone from the lot and so was the Magnum. I happened to be headed for a nearby RV park when I sew a really big Airstream being towed by what looked like a reeeaaallly small TV.

Yup, you guessed it! It was the 34 being pulled by the Magnum. Canadian plates.

The next time I was in that RV Park, I stopped by and asked the owner who set up his trailer and TV and how he liked it. He said it was done at Can AmRV and he towed it from north Ontario to Southwest FL every year for the past 3 years and loved the way the set-up worked.

Just thought it made for an interesting observation to this thread .YRMV
I know them really well, they are first kind of neighbor as we live 45 min away and we are in the same unit.
The first time I met them I was amazed by that combo. But they do travel a lot, long distance, don't care about the climb and they do it without problem. And actually the combo is quite neat. I may have a pic somewhere on my computer.

I know Andy, the 28' come from CanAm and I had some chat with him about TV. The guys knows. Well.
I have a F150 4.6 and he told me that the biggest problem I would have would be the tires. Too small rim for too high profile tires. If I wanted to improve the feeling I would better go with low tires profile and new rims.
And as I was on my way for BC and as I had to go through the Rockies I was worried even though he told me not to be.
And he was right. I never had a bit of problem.
And BTW this guy not only know about TV he knows a lot about AS and vintage. He could diagnostic every problem my vintage could have and why.
And I also liked the fact that he experiments with good level of knowledge.
The post is really interesting. I would love him to jump into the haha thread... I'll ask him.
And he is in AS and other trailer business since at least 1970... not a bad background.
And I haven't always be kind with CanAm. But since I had the chance to be in contact with Andy I have nothing bad to say.
And then and last words I appreciate when he answered my emails in the middle of the night...
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