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03-04-2007, 08:39 AM
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#21
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Rivet Master
2006 25' Safari FB SE
St. Cloud
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,280
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Will Canoe wade in?
Hello Ross -- and welcome to the Forums! Mill Valley? I believe there are some threads here about parking on a slope ... It would be good to know more about your traveling companions -- two? more?
You could head up Hwy 101 while lightly loaded and feel within your comfort zone. How about going over the Panoramic Highway to Stinson Beach and back home? (I could invite half our membership to take that test!) The latter is an example of what we come across when voyaging far from home. It would be good to find ourselves in a confidence zone come what may. The Saab may succeed barely in only one of three areas -- that being light towing on steady grades (it'll get the new Airstream home and that's about it). What remains are challenging grades at normal load and emergency avoidance/braking.
Towing up to the 80% rated capacity gives a good margin to keep you from losing control. The automotive industry posts high tow capacity, GCWR and payload numbers -- partly out of marketing interest but also as an artefact of the way they measure these. Tow capacity is measured with a base vehicle without options (no added options weight, no hitch receiver weight*, minimum fuel and one sub-200 pound person behind the steering wheel).
*That's a Catch-22 of sorts, isn't it? The pics on the Saab site do indicate that the base model 9.7x does not come with a standard hitch receiver.
Tow capacity has been addressed. You'll be towing a lot closer to NCC than you'd believe. And 2air' suggests properly that at times it is impractical to travel without something in your tanks -- some times a lot!
Let's also look at the Saab's payload of 1230 pounds. You will add fuel. Then a 2" hitch receiver + hitch bar/ball (200 pounds?). Then driver/passenger(s). Airstream's hitch weight for an un-optioned trailer (it shows a spare tire as being optional) is 720-740#. You will add weight distribution/antisway gear to the A-frame and put propane in the tanks -- all up front so they add disproportionately to extra hitch weight alone. With a minimum of personal gear in the trailer I would guess a minimum hitch weight of 900-950#. That is an estimate only and the better advice you are reading is to weigh your loads (one example, http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464/hitch-weight-bathroom-scale-24195.html). The point is that when you add up hitch receiver, tongue weight, gasoline, humans, CDs, kitten, etc in the tow vehicle, you will be vastly over the 1250# payload capacity -- even with weight distribution which does not change gross TV loading (just redistributes it to share with front axle). To say nothing of any ideal effort at not exceeding 80-85% of any spec!
I cut my Airstreaming teeth on this site, so my experience will not go back to wearing bloomers. But hang around the masters here and you'll get a clear sense of what can be done. Really, really, really read through the threads mentioned in this post. Those guys didn't mince their words!
I would probably suggest doing the numbers if you consider any 1/2-ton vehicle for a new (heavier) 25-footer. Not all will be suitable -- whereas any 3/4-ton truck/SUV/van will perform admirably for you. Last word -- make sure to get a minimum of 3.73 rear axle (different topic altogether).
Happy & safe towing! I'll wave to you on the road.
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03-04-2007, 08:44 AM
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#22
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More than one rivet loose
Currently Looking...
Los Alamos
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,756
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You are in good company.
When I bought I AS I had a F-250 (a 3/4 ton truck) with a Gas engine. It did alright on the flat parts but struggled up and down the hills. When I wrecked that one. I replaced it with a F-250 Diesel. What an improvement! The frame was good but the powerplant was too small on my original truck. Make sure you get a good Frame/body/Powerplant combination. Reserve power is nice to have.
__________________
Michelle TAC MT-0
Sarah, Snowball
Looking for a 1962 Flying Cloud
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03-04-2007, 08:47 AM
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#23
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More than one rivet loose
Currently Looking...
Los Alamos
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,756
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3.73 or 4.1 axle. the higher the number the more you can tow. Cuts down on acceleration though.
__________________
Michelle TAC MT-0
Sarah, Snowball
Looking for a 1962 Flying Cloud
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03-04-2007, 09:28 AM
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#24
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Rivet Master
1986 25' Sovereign
Southern Middle
, Tennessee
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecatsandi
3.73 or 4.1 axle. the higher the number the more you can tow. Cuts down on acceleration though.
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Cuts down on acceleration? The 4.1 rear should enable you to accelerate quicker than with the 3.73.
__________________
Craig
AIR #0078
'01 2500hd ext. cab, 8.1 litre gas, 5 sp. Allison auto
3.73 rear end
Mag-Hytec rear diff cover
Amsoil Dual by-pass oil filtration system
Amsoil synthetics all around
265 watt AM Solar, Inc. system
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03-04-2007, 09:37 AM
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#25
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Rivet Master
2006 25' Safari FB SE
St. Cloud
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidz71
The 4.1 rear should enable you to accelerate quicker than with the 3.73.
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Yes, better application of torque but somewhat higher RPMs at speed -- a slight amount less mpg.
Regarding the Yukon XL: I'd certainly suggest the Vortec 5300 V8. Tow capacities you can see on the website -- vary according to 2WD vs 4WD & 3.73 vs 4.10 axle. Payload of 1776# 4WD, 1835# 2WD.
Note that owners manual for new vehicles tends to suggest a 500 mile engine break-in before towing, then limiting speed for the first 500 miles of actual towing. The latter limit was 50mph for my Duramax -- hard for me to do but I did! I don't think I'd go to the bother of installing a 2" receiver and brake controller in the Saab just to get around this detail.
Best wishes in your pursuit!
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03-04-2007, 09:48 AM
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#26
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Aluminut
2004 25' Safari
.
, Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canoe stream
Yes, better application of torque but somewhat higher RPMs at speed -- a slight amount less mpg.
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I'm not sure I'd agree. I did a caravan tow with a Yukon 3/4 ton and 3.73s with me and my 4.10s with a Sub 3/4 ton. There was no noticable difference in MPG between the 4.10s and 3.73s.
I would not suggest the 5.3L for towing a 25 footer. It's not a bad engine, but the 6.0L is the engine to have if you are staying gasser and GM. It's head and shoulders above the 5.3L and when towing, the MPG is going to be fairly similar. With 3.73s or 4.10s at 25' it really doesn't matter all that much as it might if you were towing say 31' or larger.
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03-04-2007, 10:10 AM
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#27
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Rivet Master
2006 25' Safari FB SE
St. Cloud
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
There was no noticable difference in MPG between the 4.10s and 3.73s.
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Yes, it'd be hard to pick out from normal variation. Not significant enough to bother -- but definitely better tow w the 4.10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
I would not suggest the 5.3L for towing a 25 footer. It's not a bad engine, but the 6.0L is the engine to have if you are staying gasser and GM. It's head and shoulders above the 5.3L and when towing, the MPG is going to be fairly similar. With 3.73s or 4.10s at 25' it really doesn't matter all that much as it might if you were towing say 31' or larger.
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I'd put more credit in your firsthand report, Twink. Denis4x4's experience in this thread doesn't say much better about the Navigator's 5.4L. I had a 5.6L Titan with the 5-spd that was most capable -- too bad the rest of that vehicle wasn't up to handling my 25' SE Safari (only 1345 # payload IIRC).
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03-04-2007, 11:32 AM
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#28
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_
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, .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljmiii
Your tongue weight will also be dramatically increased by water weight should you choose to tow with water.
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not on the 25 in question;
again this is only true with very few models...
most have the fresh tank behind the leading axle. mine is over/behind the 3rd axle.
and the waste tanks are even further back.
so adding fresh water or waste water actually lowers my tongue weight.
fresh water and waste water are below the floor/within the frame on most models too, except the argosy line and a few newer bambi models.
tank mass lowers the center of gravity on most airstreams and that is a good thing.
so most folks who notice, report towing improves with fresh or waste water in the tanks.....
cheers
2air'
__________________
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.
we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
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03-04-2007, 11:36 AM
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#29
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Rivet Master
1986 25' Sovereign
Southern Middle
, Tennessee
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
I'm not sure I'd agree. I did a caravan tow with a Yukon 3/4 ton and 3.73s with me and my 4.10s with a Sub 3/4 ton. There was no noticable difference in MPG between the 4.10s and 3.73s.
I would not suggest the 5.3L for towing a 25 footer. It's not a bad engine, but the 6.0L is the engine to have if you are staying gasser and GM. It's head and shoulders above the 5.3L and when towing, the MPG is going to be fairly similar. With 3.73s or 4.10s at 25' it really doesn't matter all that much as it might if you were towing say 31' or larger.
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Ahhh, but the 6 litre GM engine with it's flat torque curve seems to like the higher rpms for some reason. This quirk has been noted and discussed in the PickupTruck.Com: The Online Community for Pickup Truck Enthusiasts forum. The 4.10 is just the ticket over the 3.73 with that particular engine. This does not hold with many other engines out there.
__________________
Craig
AIR #0078
'01 2500hd ext. cab, 8.1 litre gas, 5 sp. Allison auto
3.73 rear end
Mag-Hytec rear diff cover
Amsoil Dual by-pass oil filtration system
Amsoil synthetics all around
265 watt AM Solar, Inc. system
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03-04-2007, 12:55 PM
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#30
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Aluminut
2004 25' Safari
.
, Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,477
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Didn't know it had a flat torque curve, but glad I Tim Allen'd it and got the 4.10s just the same. I wonder if the new 6.2L gasser has the same issues.
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03-04-2007, 03:27 PM
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#31
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More than one rivet loose
Currently Looking...
Los Alamos
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,756
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other way around more engine rpms to wheel rpm equals more torque, less speed.
__________________
Michelle TAC MT-0
Sarah, Snowball
Looking for a 1962 Flying Cloud
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03-04-2007, 06:00 PM
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#32
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Rivet Master
1986 25' Sovereign
Southern Middle
, Tennessee
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecatsandi
other way around more engine rpms to wheel rpm equals more torque, less speed.
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Negative on the last part, unless you are talking about top speed of the vehicle. I don't think you will ever tow an Airstream that fast. The 4.10 rear end will move the trailer out with less effort on the part of the engine than the 3.73.
__________________
Craig
AIR #0078
'01 2500hd ext. cab, 8.1 litre gas, 5 sp. Allison auto
3.73 rear end
Mag-Hytec rear diff cover
Amsoil Dual by-pass oil filtration system
Amsoil synthetics all around
265 watt AM Solar, Inc. system
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03-04-2007, 07:18 PM
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#33
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More than one rivet loose
Currently Looking...
Los Alamos
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,756
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I think we are thinking the same thing and saying it differently. I know the 4.10 will get more load moving "quicker" but the 3.73 will move the TV quicker to highway speed than the 4.10 will. The engine will be reving higher and most likely be using more fuel.
__________________
Michelle TAC MT-0
Sarah, Snowball
Looking for a 1962 Flying Cloud
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03-04-2007, 08:14 PM
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#34
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4 Rivet Member
2008 27' International CCD FB
Mill Valley
, California
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 344
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Well, we bought the Yukon XL with a 3.73 today. I feel much more confident than I did this time yesterday!! Thanks to all of you guys for your input.
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03-06-2007, 05:03 PM
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#35
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Liquid Cooled
2017 27' Flying Cloud
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
near Indy
, Indiana
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millvalleyca
Well, we bought the Yukon XL with a 3.73 today. I feel much more confident than I did this time yesterday!! Thanks to all of you guys for your input.
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We use a 1500HD with a 6.0L and 3.73 and I feel it is a good match for our 31' (a 1500HD, I believe, is essentially a somewhat stretched 3/4 ton Suburban/YukonXL)
The previous owners of our trailer pulled it with a 5.3L Suburban 3.73, I think, and took numerous trips from Cincy to Orlando, Knoxville, Arkansas, and a couple to Oklahoma. He said he had to be patient going up some hills, but it was never a big deal.
(OT)What a nice guy.
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03-06-2007, 05:59 PM
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#36
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Aluminut
2004 25' Safari
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, Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,477
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The 1500HD would be the exception to the 1500 comments. It's essentially a 3/4 ton in half ton sheetmetal.
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03-07-2007, 02:03 PM
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#37
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4 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Yakima
, Washington
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millvalleyca
Hi! This is our very first posting. We just bought an Airstream CCD 25.
Our dealer told us that are tow vehicle is more than enough to pull our new baby. After getting home and looking at the numbers, I'm not sure it is. Here are the numbers. Please tell me if we need to replace our car!
UBW 5,145 lbs
NCC withough options, fluids or cargo 1,855 lbs
GVWR 7,000 lbls
Tow vehicle AWD V8 Saab 97X
Max. Trailer Wt. 6,500 lbs
GCWR 11,500 lbs
Thanks!
Ross
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You don't have enough tow vehicle. But, you know that by now. Buy more tow vehicle than you think you need. 3/4 ton trucks or 1 ton trucks don't cost much more (no more if you know what you'r doing) than half ton trucks.
The engine size is the least concern when towing for safety purposes. Get a strong frame, Good brakes....its harder to stop a trailer than it is to start one. ALMOST ALL tailer towing incidents happen because the tow vehicle could not handle the PANIC SITUATION AT THE TIME. The truck has to be in charge not the trailer. If you have are towing your tailer down the road and you feel like you have to be ON TOP of the wheel all the time and can never relax You don't have enough tow vehicle. I tow with a Dually truck....I would never tow without one if I could help it. I would tow my garden tailer with a dually if I had a choice. Why?....I have towed with cars....half tons....vans....PETERBUILTS...and SUV's. GET A real TRUCK TO TOW A TRAILER. YOU will be soooooooooo happy you did later.
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03-20-2007, 06:35 PM
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#38
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2 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Arroyo Grande
, California
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 25
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While on the subject of tow vehicles, we're thinking of putting a 20' Safari behind a 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8. Any thoughts on this combination?
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03-20-2007, 07:10 PM
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#39
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1 Rivet Short
1989 25' Excella
By The Bay
, Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger S
While on the subject of tow vehicles, we're thinking of putting a 20' Safari behind a 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8. Any thoughts on this combination?
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Welcome, check all the numbers (weights/capacities) but my first reaction is you should be fine...
But please do check, and get a proper WD hitch, bakes, etc.
Be safe...and have fun!
Bill
__________________
*Life is Good-Camping all around the Continent*
*Good people drink good beer-Hunter S Thompson*
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03-21-2007, 08:19 AM
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#40
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4 Rivet Member
2006 16' International CCD
New York
, New York
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger S
While on the subject of tow vehicles, we're thinking of putting a 20' Safari behind a 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8. Any thoughts on this combination?
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The quick answer is you could be fine - so long as you are very careful with how you load your airstream. But you may prefer to get a bigger vehicle with a class IV hitch. Explanation follows...
First, you need to check your Jeep's hitch reciever. Some are Class III, rated for 750lbs/7500lbs with weight distribution - but some are not.
The 20' Safari's GVWR is 5000lbs. The 2005 Grand Cherokee's max tow capacity is 6500lbs - 80% of which is 5200lbs. So you are fine there.
The Jeep's payload is 1489 lbs. Which should be fine so long as you can keep the tongue weight down...but that is the tricky part.
The 20' Safari's dry tongue weight is 600lbs - before options. The problem is that after you load up with LP, water, and all of your stuff you want to end up at 625lbs (12.5% of 5000lbs). It's not going to happen. But you really need to keep it as far as possible from your 750lb limit. It will be difficult.
You'll add most of the weight of the LP to your tongue weight - and the 20'er has two 30lb bottles. I don't know where the fresh water tank on the 20'er is. But since it has the same 23Gal (192lb) capacity as the 19'er I would guess it is under the front dinette bench rather than above the axles. If so, fresh water weight will add to your tongue weight as well. Similarly, I don't know where the water heater is...but that could add a portion of another 6 gals (50lbs).
So you will have to be very careful how you pack. I assume that there is nice storage above and below the front bed and the wardrobe is in the front as well. You would basically have to ignore it for anything but light weight stuff. It is hard to tell from the floorplan, but it looks like there is relatively little storage from the axles back to the rear. You'ld have to put all the heavy stuff back there.
Not to say that it can't be done. I fight to keep the tongue weight of my 16' Bambi at 400lbs but it is worth it because I love my tow vehicle. But your mileage may vary.
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