Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-08-2019, 06:54 PM   #201
Rivet Master
 
2023 23' International
Macon , Georgia
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 702
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by John&Vicki View Post
OK. Now let's move on to APV's - Alternatively Propelled Vehicles.
i agree...
Roadtech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 07:01 PM   #202
Rivet Master
 
SteveSueMac's Avatar

 
2012 27' Flying Cloud
W , New England
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtech View Post
I tried but he persisted...


#HePersisted [emoji3]

The link I provided was from NASA - not any media outlet. Am I not supposed to trust NASA at this point? Houston - we have a problem....

You haven’t addressed a single thing I’ve said with any seriousness. The best you have is that NASA’s summary (essentially the equivalent of 2+2=4) has been “debunked” because it’s “media” (presumably more “fake news”?).

On what set of scientific facts would you suggest we find some basis for discussion?
SteveSueMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 07:11 PM   #203
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Images: 4
Perhaps one problem with fuel cells is that there is an infinite supply of fuel. It comes from water, right? Heck, you get two hydrogen molecules to every one oxygen (I know, I’m a total simpleton). Is the extraction process complicated, i.e. expensive? If the technology got simple enough it would put a whole lot of wildly profitable and powerful companies out of business.

I recall a story that when they first introduced buses in Los Angeles that they were electric. But the oil industry quickly made a bunch of deals that steered things to ICE. I’m not being political but it just makes sense to me to take developing technologies seriously as they do have the ability to improve things.

Take horse propelled vehicles for example before ICE. There was a prediction when they were the mode of transportation that it wouldn’t be long before New York was piled with horse manure 10’ high. Nice that the ICE bailed us out of that. Although the wagon manufacturers probably didn’t like it. Some switched to automobiles but many, not realizing that they were in the transportation business, not the wagon business, went out of business. But I digress, a weakness of mine.
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 07:30 PM   #204
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
#HePersisted [emoji3]

The link I provided was from NASA - not any media outlet. Am I not supposed to trust NASA at this point? Houston - we have a problem....

You haven’t addressed a single thing I’ve said with any seriousness. The best you have is that NASA’s summary (essentially the equivalent of 2+2=4) has been “debunked” because it’s “media” (presumably more “fake news”?).

On what set of scientific facts would you suggest we find some basis for discussion?

Take it offline please. This discussion is about APV's.


Thanks,
John
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 11:15 PM   #205
3 Rivet Member
 
1987 34.5' Airstream 345
Auckland , New Zealand
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 138
Keep running this course were on, no obstructions....or orders from anyone OP included......
This converststion will lead back to new motive power options anyway under its own steam and in its own time!
Voltair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 11:29 PM   #206
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by John&Vicki View Post
Perhaps one problem with fuel cells is that there is an infinite supply of fuel....
The real problem with hydrogen, whether for fuel cells or as a fuel in an ICE, is obtaining hydrogen. While it is plentiful, it isn't plentiful in the form we need it to consider it a fuel. Hydrogen is best thought of as a battery, or carrier of energy, and not as a primary energy source.

You can make hydrogen for use as a fuel, starting from natural gas, or with electrolysis and using electricity. Both take more energy to make the hydrogen than you get back out of the hydrogen.

As a fuel cell for transportation use, hydrogen makes sense if you have a cheap and green source of electricity, most likely solar panels. It is only as green as the primary energy source for its production. You would make the hydrogen very close to where you refueled, eliminating the transportation issues. At that point, the fuel cell is essentially a battery, but you recharge it with hydrogen instead of plugging in.

As an aside, we have had a fuel cell pioneer here in Vancouver for years. That led to lots of local experimentation with fuel cells. With some now making it to market, and a local hydrogen production and distribution facility, we have our first few public hydrogen refueling stations. The first pump was at a Shell station a few km from where I live. When they opened for hydrogen sales, three manufacturers had hydrogen fuel cell vehicles there (Hyundai, Toyota, Honda). This station was the first in Canada; there are now seven more locally, and others in other provinces. Every time I read about how this can't be done I think about driving past this station. Reports are a 3 min refueling time, and a 700 km range on a standard vehicle (not a tow vehicle).

Attached Images
File Type: bmp hydrogen station Vancouver.bmp (742.7 KB, 129 views)
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 01:33 AM   #207
Rivet Master
 
2017 30' Classic
Anna Maria , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFL View Post
The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
I’m all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
Meanwhile,
I am sitting here in Germany today in the picturesc midevel Bavarian town of Wolfram Echenbach. Outside sits my rental car a brand new 2020
BMW 6 AG5.0 D. That is a 5 litre blue diesel monster with a top speed of 260 kilometer ph. With a windshild heads up display. The big diesel sedans rule the autobahns in Gerrmany. BMW, Audie, Mercedes. My wifes relatives , all well to do farmers drive all of the above. The reason diesel is 25 percent less expensive here and they are the fastest things on the road.
Taxes make up over half of the fuel costs. They think EVs are a joke.
This area is Germanies Midwest in thought and life style. Very conservative.
franklyfrank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 08:22 AM   #208
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltair View Post
Keep running this course were on, no obstructions....or orders from anyone OP included......
This converststion will lead back to new motive power options anyway under its own steam and in its own time!
Voltaire...

When I read your message in email my first thought was that you must not live in the U.S. Then when I read it at the forum I saw that you live in New Zealand. Unless you’re in this country with the daily barrage of negativity from all sides you cannot imagine how polarized we have become here. It’s very difficult to maintain an intelligent discussion without things devolving into an emotional melt down.

I’m really sick of it and I’m sure many of the folks here are to. So I’m determined to keep this discussion on the rails.

Please excuse the digression.

John
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 08:43 AM   #209
Rivet Master
 
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI , Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
Maybe in the mountains. In Munich they are putting in charging stations. And transit (S bahn and U bahn) are much faster than driving (powered by catenary).

Sorry to burst your bubble, I spend a lot of time over there working.
__________________
2018 International Serenity 27' FB
Michelin 16” tires
Hensley Arrow hitch

Tow Vehicle: 2020 F-350 6.7L Diesel
Countryboy59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 08:59 AM   #210
Site Team
 
wulfraat's Avatar

 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,555
Images: 1
Funny you should mention bmw.... just last month....

”BMW chief executive Harald Krüger to step down. BMW's chief executive Harald Krüger has quit days before a board meeting that was due to decide his future, putting the carmaker under pressure to find a successor to deal with falling profits and catch up with rivals in the race to develop electric vehicles.

Jul 5, 2019”
wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 01:01 PM   #211
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
Meanwhile,
I am sitting here in Germany today in the picturesque medieval Bavarian town of Wolfram Echenbach. Outside sits my rental car, a brand new 2020
BMW 6 AG 5.0 D. That is a 5 litre blue diesel monster ....
3.0 litre. Trunk badges don’t indicate actual displacement with BMWs.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 06:14 PM   #212
Rivet Master
 
DewTheDew's Avatar
 
2020 30' Classic
Frederick , Maryland
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 776
Actually BMW has been pushing both EV and fuel cells pretty hard for some time.
DewTheDew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 06:19 PM   #213
Rivet Master
 
DewTheDew's Avatar
 
2020 30' Classic
Frederick , Maryland
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 776
IMHO the problem with fuel cell vehicles is that there is not a clear enough pathway to making money for anyone to go all in. There are several things that have to happen to make money and it generally would not be the same person/company doing them, so no one is doing them. For EVs Elon could basically make it happen because it was primarily stuffing batteries into a Lotus to start and electric lines with the needed electrons are everywhere. Fuel Cells are still expensive (platinum), finicky at temperature and they degrade too fast. That is hard and expensive. But then you have to make hydrogen and transport it. That is hard and expensive. Then you have to try to pump it and store it in the vehicle. That is hard and expensive. If there were a clear pathway to solving one or perhaps two of those things then a large company like Shell might partner with someone like Hyundai and make it happen. But it is a multi-pronged chicken-egg problem. The potential payoffs are large but it lacks coordination. Too bad. I hope they get it sorted as it would be a good complement to BEVs.
DewTheDew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 07:05 PM   #214
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewTheDew View Post
Actually BMW has been pushing both EV and fuel cells pretty hard for some time.
I think BMW made some strategic mistakes on alternate fuelled vehicles.

First they pushed hydrogen, for years, as an ICE fuel. I couldn’t understand why, if you had hydrogen, you would want to run it through an ICE. But BMW was married to advanced spark ignited piston engines, so that is what they built for hydrogen fuel.

Then, they put a cautious toe in the water with BEVs, but they saw them as something different than their core identity (probably having to do with having motor in their name) and so they purposely made them different, in looks, and in branding. That failed.

Now they are trying a bit of everything, but are late to the party. Their recent fuel cell vehicle plans come with announcements that they don’t think fuel cells are a long term solution. Their BEV development is behind schedule, because they abandoned the independent identity approach of the i3 and are working to integrate BEV into existing product lines. And the diesels they spent so much time, effort and capital developing are being legislated out of existence.

I predict they will be absorbed. Not sure by who. Ford was an obvious potential partner, but they are now working with VW. Maybe another German manufacturer.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2019, 05:55 AM   #215
Rivet Master
 
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI , Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewTheDew View Post
Actually BMW has been pushing both EV and fuel cells pretty hard for some time.
Saw lots of i3s when I was there last time.
Countryboy59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2019, 05:24 PM   #216
2 Rivet Member
 
2019 27' Globetrotter
Cypress , Texas
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 70
Electric vehicles are coming and self driving vehicles are coming. In every major industry, technology will move forward. Some will resist it and old tech will be around for quite some time to fill the market demand of late adopters. I for one will embrace it, as it matures.
olgoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2019, 10:51 PM   #217
4 Rivet Member
 
2019 22' Sport
Carlsbad , California
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by olgoat View Post
Electric vehicles are coming and self driving vehicles are coming. In every major industry, technology will move forward. Some will resist it and old tech will be around for quite some time to fill the market demand of late adopters. I for one will embrace it, as it matures.


I just used automatic cruise control while towing... worked like a charm! I’m definitely in the “embrace it” camp.
Prettygood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 06:14 PM   #218
2 Rivet Member
 
2019 27' Globetrotter
Cypress , Texas
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prettygood View Post
I just used automatic cruise control while towing... worked like a charm! I’m definitely in the “embrace it” camp.


Agreed, I like the adaptive cruise control as well.
olgoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 06:30 PM   #219
Rivet Master
 
2019 27' International
Western NC , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 860
Images: 1
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prettygood View Post
I just used automatic cruise control while towing... worked like a charm! I’m definitely in the “embrace it” camp.


And I’m not so sure, problem is it slows down really early and I don’t always catch it, so then passing is not as smooth where you just keep momentum, just turned it off and will see how I like towing with regular cruise next week.
__________________
2023 Van Leigh Vilano 320GK
2019 International Serenity 27 FBQ “TC Escape” SOLD
2019 Ford F-350 Platinum
JonDNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 07:24 PM   #220
Rivet Master
 
2017 28' International
Jim Falls , Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,300
Blog Entries: 1
To me these are the hurdles for EVs to become long distance vehicles.
1). Range. (Especially in cold climates).
2). Charge time and enough charging stations. (No one wants to sit in a long line for an hour)
3). Battery life.
4). Cost of the vehicle.

So over time technology does become cheaper as it becomes more pervasive. Example: computer, cell phones,etc.

I believe in the short-run EVs will be everyday drivers. I can see that very very easily.

As to TVs time will tell with regard to development of #1 and #2 above.

One interesting side bar is that Ford is developing a duel fuel car. One that runs off a battery and the other a gas engine. Apparently when one gives out the other takes over. Interesting idea.
Daquenzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To Torque or Not to Torque bella_intl Wheels, Hubs & Bearings 50 08-31-2017 05:26 AM
Just when we thought we had it figured out...! cheetah1 Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 9 09-20-2014 09:10 AM
Thought I Had Seen It All....But Not This!!! Airhog1 Off Topic Forum 27 09-15-2008 10:21 PM
and you thought you had a motorhome! Excella CM Classic Motorhomes 3 12-29-2007 05:42 PM
Wow, thought I had been "kicked out" :) Kistler Forum Admin, News and Member Account Info 4 08-26-2006 06:13 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.