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08-08-2019, 05:15 AM
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#181
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Rivet Master
2020 28' Flying Cloud
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Hiawassee
, Georgia
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewTheDew
I just wanted to comment on this point as there is a logical flaw that people often miss. Right now the administration, which runs all of the government funding agencies, does not support the concept of climate change as a man-made issue and generally tries to suppress such information coming out from the government. Therefore, anyone who wanted to do research showing that mankind has zero to do with climate change should have an easy time getting funds. This is the same in this country from 2001-2009. The fact that you do not see huge amounts of such folks coming out with papers and getting grants saying that mankind has nothing to do with it is evidence that, in fact, there is not a bias in such funding and the results are the natural response to overwhelming data. Heck, you could likely win a Nobel Prize if you could conclusively show that CO2 release had nothing to do with the change in our climate.
That does not mean that the majority is correct, but it does indicate that your assertion is incorrect.
Okay, carry on... :-)
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I’d have to disagree. The current administration has been in place for 2.5 years. Most of the studies were done prior to that. The federal government is a huge bureaucracy with a lot of inertia. It doesn’t turn on a dime.
I worked with federal agencies for many years. I know what it’s like.
“Heck, you could likely win a Nobel Prize if you could ...”.
Highly unlikely. An organization that would give an incoming president the Nobel Peace Prize before he had a chance to do anything (maybe even find the WH bathroom) has already shown how biased it is.
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08-08-2019, 05:22 AM
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#182
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Rivet Master
2023 23' International
Macon
, Georgia
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewTheDew
I work in a government funding agency and I would say that is incorrect. Plus there is plenty of funding on climate by wealthy conservatives and oil companies looking to prove that man and fossil fuels have no effect on the environment. My point is, that is a red herring.
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I guess if you take money from the private sector to fund research, your work is inherently biased, but if you get billion dollar grants from Uncle Sam, your work is eminently perfect.
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08-08-2019, 05:23 AM
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#183
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Rivet Master
2020 28' Flying Cloud
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Hiawassee
, Georgia
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sranger
While I know that Electric vehicles are better for the enviroment that internal combustion vehicles, I do not think that is why they are growing as such a fast pace. I think they are growing in popularity simply because they are better vehicles, over all, to own.
While I do know that humans are causing global warming (I still think that is the most accurate definition), I have to accept that about a third of the population is simply not going to accept it as fact no matter what happens. As someone once said: "The average person is not very smart and 50% of the population is less intelligent than the average person".
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Dont disagree with the EV comment and if you bothered to read my previous posts you should know that I don’t dismiss air pollution as a problem.
The sentiment revealed in the next paragraph is unfortunate and all too common: “if you don’t agree with me, you’re not very smart”. Most People who know me wouldn’t say that about me.
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08-08-2019, 05:25 AM
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#184
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Rivet Master
2020 28' Flying Cloud
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Hiawassee
, Georgia
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mythbuster88
i convert mass into energy all the time when i eat beans.
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😂😱🤪
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08-08-2019, 11:11 AM
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#185
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KK4YZ
...and no funding by wealthy liberals?
Still everyone deflects from my question of how accurate are the temperature estimates and greenhouse gas estimates from the thousands of years prior to direct measurements and good records.
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I didn't deflect, I answered your question. I gave you a source to follow up on (NASA). I didn't think you needed the link to the studies. Your response was that you didn't want to talk about it any more, you wanted to go camping. Fair enough. That was quick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KK4YZ
Don't disagree with the EV comment and if you bothered to read my previous posts you should know that I don’t dismiss air pollution as a problem.
The sentiment revealed in the next paragraph is unfortunate and all too common: “if you don’t agree with me, you’re not very smart”. Most people who know me wouldn’t say that about me.
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I have no idea if you are smart or not, I don't know you. Leaving aside your comments about converting mass to energy via combustion, all I have to go on is what you have posted here, with respect to this particular subject. In those postings you have shown a disregard for evidence, an unwillingness to investigate independent sources for yourself, and a tendency to base your responses more on ideological grounds than scientific ones. You may be very smart, and just want to argue an ideology, I don't know. I still think it would be worth you investigating some independent and qualified sources instead of ideas regularly expressed by the Heritage Foundation, the GWPF, and spokespeople for industries heavily vested in maintaining the status quo.
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08-08-2019, 11:41 AM
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#186
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Rivet Master
1990 25' Excella
Sisters
, Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
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I'm not a scientist or an engineer but since I'm the OP here I'm giving myself license for for general random thoughts.
There is an interesting paradox occurring right now. Our modern age is very much based on observable facts. Empiricism rules the day. This has had many consequences, including the creation of a secular culture with decreasing interest in religion. This is the foundation of modern culture.
Except...
Politics have become a powerful force. It's typical for many discussions, if not most, to devolve into a heated "debate" based on ideology. I suppose that politics might be the new religion. It certainly fits nicely with materialism.
In any event, this has been a great discussion - until the devolution started. I really don't care what anyone's political beliefs are, that's your business. But I would really appreciate it if we could confine our discussion to what used to be known as facts. I know that truth is a little elusive right now as perspective is reality to some. And perspective is continually being spun by all kinds of folks with all kinds of agendas. But let's try.
Thanks,
John
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
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08-08-2019, 12:00 PM
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#187
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Rivet Master
2023 23' International
Macon
, Georgia
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
I still think it would be worth you investigating some independent and qualified sources instead of ideas regularly expressed by the Heritage Foundation, the GWPF, and spokespeople for industries heavily vested in maintaining the status quo.
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And so are you the arbiter of who are the only "independent and qualified sources"? If so, could I ask what qualifications you hold that gives you the esteemed position to make those determinations for us all?
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08-08-2019, 01:07 PM
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#188
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtech
And so are you the arbiter of who are the only "independent and qualified sources"? If so, could I ask what qualifications you hold that gives you the esteemed position to make those determinations for us all?
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Nope
But the scientific method would be a good thing to follow. Come up with a hypothesis, design an experiment to test it, if you are able to show that your hypothesis is a better one than the currently accepted position, that is the way science will go. Instead of just saying "I don't believe it" or similar denials.
If one wants to evaluate sources, consider their funding, but that isn't the only arbitrator. Independent peer reviewed research is worth hunting down. It beats repeating dubious claims such as some of the ones made in this thread. Do some science, instead of trying to disprove a single element of someone else's theory, one which may not in fact disprove the theory at all.
My issue with denying the science is that we can't then have a reasonable discussion. It turns into politics. Take the best available science, and start from there. Question, but don't deny. Once we get an established baseline of agreement, then we can have a debate about what to do about the situation we find ourselves in. Until we get past the "It isn't happening; if it is we didn't cause it; if we did it isn't bad anyway; etc" we will end up yelling.
I suggest we are currently in a hole as society. The first rule of holes is generally to stop digging. Unfortunately, we have discussions about if it really is a hole, whether we have been in holes before, whether holes are in fact good, and all the while we keep digging. That doesn't bode well for getting us out of the hole. And that is the only real issue.
Just my $0.02
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08-08-2019, 03:35 PM
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#189
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Rivet Master
1990 25' Excella
Sisters
, Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
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We’ve drifted, in an interesting way, into a discussion about climate change, one of today’s third rails. Let’s return to the viability, both current and future, of vehicle propulsion by other than ICE.
It feels like we’re in the nascent stage of a giant change. I for one would like to learn more about it.
John
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
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08-08-2019, 03:40 PM
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#190
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Rivet Master
2023 23' International
Macon
, Georgia
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
Nope But the scientific method would be a good thing to follow.
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I agree. I am an engineer and I enjoy studying papers from scientists that are involved with climate change (previously global warming) research and are coming to very different conclusions. Their is no consensus on either side and a tremendous amount of complex work left to do to understand what is really happening and whether or not it is a critical problem deserving trillions of dollars to correct. Too many have closed their minds and will not accept that no definitive conclusions have been made. Many politicians are using climate change as a political scare tactic and tool to ram down their other unrelated agendas.
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08-08-2019, 04:20 PM
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#191
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Rivet Master
2020 28' Flying Cloud
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Hiawassee
, Georgia
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
I didn't deflect, I answered your question. I gave you a source to follow up on (NASA). I didn't think you needed the link to the studies. Your response was that you didn't want to talk about it any more, you wanted to go camping. Fair enough.....
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I asked how we know the accuracy of temperature and greenhouse gas level estimates for the thousands of years prior to direct measurements and records are available. That should be key to evaluating long term trends and drawing a conclusion re: linking human activity and climate. Since you’re so convinced about this, I thought you would know. I guess not. You just go back to “all these people say it; it must be true”.
And, yes I do want to go camping. I don’t need a 2nd career.
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08-08-2019, 04:26 PM
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#192
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John&Vicki
We’ve drifted, in an interesting way, into a discussion about climate change, one of today’s third rails. Let’s return to the viability, both current and future, of vehicle propulsion by other than ICE.
It feels like we’re in the nascent stage of a giant change. I for one would like to learn more about it.
John
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OK, fair request. Climate change discussion moved to PM.
I had a previous role leading an engineering team developing LNG fueling systems for transport (road, rail, marine, heavy equipment). That brought me into the Advanced Clean Technology world. While that organization is focused on commercial transport, many of the developments are directly applicable to lighter duty vehicles, including battery technology improvements, charging infrastructure, hydrogen fuel cell advancements, and so on. Lots of interesting reading to do on their site, some of which many will not have seen before.
https://www.act-news.com/?elqTrackId...2&elqcsid=2072
Suggest you click on the ACT Expo link on that site, to see info on their annual exposition. Lots of vehicles get debuted there.
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08-08-2019, 04:46 PM
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#193
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Rivet Master
1990 25' Excella
Sisters
, Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
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Fuel Cell Technology
I know next to nothing about hydrogen/electric propulsion. I suspect most folks who have an interest in AP (alternative propulsion - is that a common acronym?) are bored with the topic as it seems like its been around forever. Here’s a positive review of a Hyundai so equipped.
It seems like the number one problem, other than the common perception that you will probably be blown up, is delivery of the hydrogen to fueling stations. What are the other challenges? It’s hard not to like a technology that produces water as emissions.
John
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
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08-08-2019, 05:06 PM
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#194
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4 Rivet Member
2024 19' Caravel
Washougal
, Washington
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John&Vicki
...It seems like the number one problem, other than the common perception that you will probably be blown up, is delivery of the hydrogen to fueling stations. What are the other challenges? It’s hard not to like a technology that produces water as emissions.John
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Back in Post #63, I mentioned:
Quote:
Fuel cells have been mentioned in this thread; actually NASA has been using fuel cells (in space flight) since the early 60's. To safely handle the hydrogen, they carried it in the form of ammonia, and then ran it through a reformer before running it through the fuel cells.
Ammonia is easy to make, (fairly) easy to handle and transport. You don't have to keep it under tremendous pressure. You can pump it like motor fuel. And a reformer can be made at a reasonable price in quantity.
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Then I asked the question: WHY has this avenue been ignored... (and the rest of the question is,) for doing it the really hard and dangerous way of trying to compress, store, and handle high pressure hydrogen. We have a lot of smart people out there; I can't believe nobody has taken the easier road that has been shown.
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08-08-2019, 05:19 PM
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#195
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Rivet Master
2012 27' Flying Cloud
W
, New England
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtech
I agree. I am an engineer and I enjoy studying papers from scientists that are involved with climate change (previously global warming) research and are coming to very different conclusions. Their is no consensus on either side ...snip...
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I’m sorry - I’m not an engineer and won’t pretend to understand the papers. But your statement that there is “no consensus on either side” bothers me for two specific reasons:
1) in a scientific search for truth - there aren’t sides. There’s a scientific method to establish a factual observation until and unless another peer-reviewed theory uncovers new knowledge. Science, unlike American politics, doesn’t have two sides. If it’s proven that 2+2=4 - there’s not two sides to that story. There’s the fact that 2+2=4 no matter what Republicrats or Democans say differently for their unique non-scientific purposes.
2) on this topic in particular, there most certainly is consensus. “Multiple studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals show that 97 percent or more of actively publishing climate scientists agree: Climate-warming trends over the past century are extremely likely due to human activities.” See the full view here: https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus
NASA’s article starts with the title: “Scientific Consensus”....
Let’s say you’re in the 3% of scientific researchers who don’t share that view of the facts. That’s fine. No judgement. Always good to test the status quo. And at the same time, if there were a way to contribute to stopping and reversing the irrefutable fact that the global climate is warming at the most rapid rate in history - whether you agree humans are the root cause - would you not want to do something about the rapid change in the climate?
It’s not a question of politics....there aren’t sides, just facts and there is indeed peer reviewed scientific consensus on this issue. I’d be glad to learn humans aren’t the root cause while we all work together to address the effect. What do you think?
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08-08-2019, 05:59 PM
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#196
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Rivet Master
2020 28' Flying Cloud
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Hiawassee
, Georgia
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamguy
Back in Post #63, I mentioned:
Then I asked the question: WHY has this avenue been ignored... (and the rest of the question is,) for doing it the really hard and dangerous way of trying to compress, store, and handle high pressure hydrogen. We have a lot of smart people out there; I can't believe nobody has taken the easier road that has been shown.
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I read somewhere that Toyota is putting its marbles into fuel cell technology as opposed to battery/electric. If true it seems like a gutsy move since its success would depend on a new distribution system.
Reading that kinda surprised me since Toyota has been a leader in gas/electric hybrids which I saw as a stepping stone to EV's. Maybe they know something we don't? Still I don't know how true that account was.
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08-08-2019, 06:00 PM
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#197
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Rivet Master
2023 23' International
Macon
, Georgia
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSueMac
2) on this topic in particular, there most certainly is consensus. “Multiple studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals show that 97 percent or more of actively publishing climate scientists agree: Climate-warming trends over the past century are extremely likely due to human activities.
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That 97 percent nonsense has been debunked so many times it has gotten boring...spend some time and study it...don't get your facts from the U. S. media...
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08-08-2019, 06:12 PM
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#198
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Rivet Master
1990 25' Excella
Sisters
, Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtech
That 97 percent nonsense has been debunked so many times it has gotten boring...spend some time and study it...don't get your facts from the U. S. media...
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Stop it.
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
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08-08-2019, 06:42 PM
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#199
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Rivet Master
2023 23' International
Macon
, Georgia
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John&Vicki
Stop it.
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I tried but he persisted...
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08-08-2019, 06:48 PM
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#200
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Rivet Master
1990 25' Excella
Sisters
, Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtech
I tried but he persisted...
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OK. Now let's move on to APV's - Alternatively Propelled Vehicles.
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
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