Amazing Sight! Buick SUV towing ......

[Bluto]

This is not directed at anyone in particular but;
It's not all about moving the trailer and TV, or even all about a hitch set up, to me, it's about being able to stop in an emergency situation.
The Buick and the 34' set up just does not seem safe for most roads and traffic.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I encounter a lot of crazy drivers each time I travel pulling the stream. That holds true whether I travel in Canada or the US.

[GetOutDoors]

Even if a law existed that made it a crime to tow beyond the manufacturers specifications, there would still be people doing it anyway.

How do I know? Because we have laws in place today, many of which may be well founded laws backed by what we call science, that people of a different mindset purposefully break.

Some laws (traffic laws for example) are made to protect the lives of others. We place trust in each individual who has a license to be responsible and make the right decisions that is not in their best interest, but in the well being and safety of others.

That being said, if a person is irresponsible and runs over someone (kills them), then we have another law (involuntary manslaughter) that punishes them: there is consequence.

I personally have a hard time thinking intelligence is at work when someone grossly over-tows (towing way beyond the manufacturers specifications). That said, I do not think we can legislate morality, or intelligence, and to do so would create a society founded in totalitarianism - and that is not the kind of government I care to be party to ...

In other words, I don't want to see laws made to keep someone from doing something I consider irresponsible or stupid: I want them to be able to have freedom. But the second that freedom robs someone else of life or health, there should extreme consequences.

[Al - K4GLU]

Originally Posted by Bluto

This is not directed at anyone in particular but;
It's not all about moving the trailer and TV, or even all about a hitch set up, to me, it's about being able to stop in an emergency situation.
The Buick and the 34' set up just does not seem safe for most roads and traffic.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I encounter a lot of crazy drivers each time I travel pulling the stream. That holds true whether I travel in Canada or the US.

I've heard the guy from CanAm's spiel at Alumapalooza and the idea is the brakes on the tow vehicle are for the tow vehicle and the brakes on the trailer stop or slow down the trailer. Of course this doesn't take into consideration things like the Airstream disc brake failures that happened due to actuator problems. And while that could cause problems with any type of tow vehicle I'd much rather have something that the mfg says is adequate for the job if it happened to me.

[overlander63]

Most states have towing laws that say the tow vehicle's brakes MUST be able to stop the entire combination, not just itself. So, unplug your trailer's brakes, go 65 mph (max rated speed for trailer tires), jam on the brakes as if a little kid on a tricycle rolled out in front of you, and tell me how it works out for you.
Don't tell me it can't happen, all it would take is for the umbilical plug to come loose, and you would have no trailer brakes.
Also, Canada's laws regarding liability are somewhat different from those of the United States, so what may not be a problem legally in Canada may be very different here.

[polarlyse]

I'll throw my chips in with the crowd that tows WITHIN the rated limits of the tow vehicle. When you do everything right and a collision occurs we call it an accident. When you play outside the box and the collision happens what are you going to call it ???? There's no question that you can make a vehicle tow in excess of rated limits but should you ????? Theoretically, the engineers should be standing behind you if you are within limits but think about who will stand behind you when you don't. I for one will give any tow combination I feel is being unsafe a wide berth.

Happy & SAFE towing everyone.

[Jim Clark]

Originally Posted by polarlyse

I for one will give any tow combination I feel is being unsafe a wide berth.

Happy & SAFE towing everyone.

I am a safe distance behind you.

Jim

[dkottum]

I suspect that Buick is not only more stable than a heavy duty pickup, it may stop the combo faster and straighter as well.

Would like to see a comparison.

doug k

[MrUKToad]

There's much said on this forum regarding people's opinions of mating smaller tow vehicles with larger Airstreams. With respect to the wide spectrum of views that are expressed here, very few of us fully understand the physics that control towing dynamics, and in that number I include the manufacturers of the vehicles we use to tow our trailers. Manufacturers cannot control what we hitch to our vehicles once they leave the factory so they put few, if any, resources into checking how well (or not) things tow. Consequently, tow ratings are not arrived at in any real scientific manner and more often than not are defined by marketing requirements, especially at the smaller end of the market.

With that in mind, people like Andy Thompson have put a lot of time and money into exploring the physics and math of towing dynamics and come to the conclusion that despite what the tow rating might be, many smaller vehicles are actually very effective as TVs, especially given the improvements in vehicle technology in recent years. The OP wouldn’t have been aware who set up this particular Enclave/Airstream combination but Andy Thompson has mated a fair number of these vehicles with larger Airstreams and has produced, with the appropriate modifications, a safe and practical pairing that has been extensively track and road tested. It may be that many people in this forum disagree with what Andy can do but I doubt that anyone has a sufficient technical knowledge of towing to challenge him in any meaningful way.

On the legal issues, these have already been discussed at length in this forum. It has been established that tow ratings have no legal standing either in the US or Canada so to seek to apportion some liability on that basis is a complete non-starter.

Of course, we are free to mate whatever tow vehicle we deem appropriate to our Airstreams, providing that it works. If you feel, for example, that a one ton truck is your minimum then that is your prerogative. However, as Andy Thompson has proved for many thousands of customers, there is a much greater choice of tow vehicle for your Airstream than would be suggested simply by looking at manufacturers tow ratings.

As a final thought, CanAm has been in business for many years and its reputation is staked on its ability to produce safe and practical vehicle and trailer combinations. If any of their setups were proven to be either unsafe or illegal then I doubt that the business would exist at all.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by overlander63

Most states have towing laws that say the tow vehicle's brakes MUST be able to stop the entire combination, not just itself.

Overlander,

I don't live in the US so I'm a tad unsighted on this, but when I checked on towing regulations for the states I wanted to drive through to get to Florida, the only rules I could find said that the trailer must have its own brakes if over a given weight. There was no specification that I could see regarding stopping the combination using the tow vehicle's brakes alone. Where did you gather this information from? Is it available on the Internet?

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

Overlander,

I don't live in the US so I'm a tad unsighted on this, but when I checked on towing regulations for the states I wanted to drive through to get to Florida, the only rules I could find said that the trailer must have its own brakes if over a given weight. There was no specification that I could see regarding stopping the combination using the tow vehicle's brakes alone. Where did you gather this information from? Is it available on the Internet?

State Towing Laws for RVs

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by overlander63

State Towing Laws for RVs

Thanks, Overlander, that's similar to the information I obtained though the AAA/CAA.

On a quick run through I've not been able to find any requirement to stop using the TV brakes alone, except where auxiliary brakes are not required, which isn't relevant here. Were you thinking of any specific state?

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

Thanks, Overlander, that's similar to the information I obtained though the AAA/CAA.

On a quick run through I've not been able to find any requirement to stop using the TV brakes alone, except where auxiliary brakes are not required, which isn't relevant here. Were you thinking of any specific state?

Oops, I meant to say that I'll have a closer look at the whole list tomorrow.

[mojo]

Have you ever wondered if the towing capacity claimed by the manufacturer of your Super Duty Dually Diesel is realistic?

Or is the measly tow rating of your unibody SUV under rated to lessen liability?

You will soon know the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Automotive manufacturers agreed in 2008 to standardize tow ratings as specified in the SAE’s Surface Vehicle Recommended Practice J2807 to take effect by 2013.

The industry alliance includes Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, and Honda, along with several leading trailer and hitch makers.
Until now, each manufacturer was free to test using proprietary conditions ideally suited to a truck’s towing strengths and decide their own maximum trailer rating. They could pretty much advertise whatever ratings they wanted since there was no “apples to apples” comparison between brands or models.
Each company designed its own test, and—surprise, surprise—their trucks always aced the tests. Imagine the EPA didn’t exist, and car companies could just make up fuel-economy figures to boost sales. Kinda like, catch me if you can—on my towing ratings!
Makers would boast about the pounds their pickups and SUVs could tow, and their exhaustive testing used to determine the towing capacity.
But when a new truck claimed a higher number, the other manufacturers would rewrite their spec sheets with increased towing capacity and, as if by magic, match or beat the new kid on the block.
And there was nothing a customer could do, short of bringing a 12,000-pound fifth wheel or travel trailer to a test drive.
Towing capacity measures the maximum weight that a vehicle can safely and legally haul. The rating is as important to many pickup and SUV buyers as fuel economy or horsepower are to minivan or sports-car shoppers, reports the Detroit Free Press.
“Before, you couldn’t say who had the best towing capacity, because you didn’t know how it was tested,” says Mike Levine, editor of Pickuptrucks.com. “This is the first time a customer can do an actual apples-to-apples comparison.”
Major makers of pickups and SUVs have agreed to a standard test to rate their vehicle’s towing capacity. By the end of the 2013 model year, most truck buyers should know—for the first time—how a vehicle performs compared to the competition.
This will allow for apples-to-apples comparisons between trucks from different manufacturers and it’s a really big deal for millions of drivers especially for RVers towing a fifth-wheel or travel trailer.
There are five engineering characteristics that strongly influence any tow vehicle’s performance:
• Engine power and torque characteristics
• Powertrain cooling capacity
• Durability of the powertrain and chassis
• Handling characteristics during cornering and braking maneuvers
• Structural characteristics of the vehicle hitch attachment area

The standard, known as J2807, spells out test procedures and performance requirements that must be met for a manufacturer to assign a maximum tow rating to a particular vehicle. While various trailer configurations are suitable for these tests, the towed unit must provide a minimum specified frontal area starting with 12 square feet for a TWR (Trailer Weight Rating) below 1500 pounds, ranging to 60 square feet for a TWR exceeding 12,000 pounds. There are also specifications for how the trailer’s load is distributed on its axle(s) and how the attachment tongue is configured.
One major change from past practice is what the SAE committee defines as TVTW (Tow Vehicle Trailering Weight). Unlike the past, a driver, a passenger, optional equipment purchased by at least one third of the customer base, and hitch equipment are now included in this calculation along with the base weight of the tow vehicle. Raising the TVTW figure automatically lowers the maximum permissible GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) and TWR figures.
With the demanding test, automakers expect their tow ratings to decrease by anything from a few hundred to more than a thousand pounds. They’re willing to take the hit, because it’s in their interest as well as the customers’ to have credible towing figures.
Toyota was the first to use the standard. It already applied it to the Tundra. The Tundra’s claimed towing capacity decreased, but its credibility grew.
Chevrolet, Dodge, Ford and GMC full-size pickups are expected to adopt the test during the 2013 model year, which begins January 1, 2012. Nissan will use the standard someday, but won’t say when or on which vehicles.
Every truck tested to the standard can say its towing capacity is SAE rated. That’s the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval when it comes to vehicle performance. The SAE is the leading independent body for vehicle standards and tests.
The towing standard is not mandatory. No manufacturer has to use it. If they don’t, though, the figures they claim for towing capacity will be less credible and more open to challenge than their competitors.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by mojo

SAE’s Surface Vehicle Recommended Practice J2807 to take effect by 2013.


• Engine power and torque characteristics
• Powertrain cooling capacity
• Durability of the powertrain and chassis
• Handling characteristics during cornering and braking maneuvers
• Structural characteristics of the vehicle hitch attachment area

All well and good until you alter one or more of the above characteristics, for example if you improve the powertrain cooling capacity (very easy to do), put some different tires and/or shocks on to alter the Handling Characteristics or beef up your stock hitch with some extra steel. The new standard is only good at the point the vehicle rolls out of the showroom...... Oh! and it's not mandatory.

[zlee]

Somewhere on the Airstream site (I'm sure you can find it if you look) is a pdf that shows how a vehicle towing a properly outfitted trailer will actually stop faster than just the vehicle or the trailer (if you could get the trailer moving on its own to a certain speed) on their own. By a decent percentage.

But I'm sure that one's great big tow vehicles would make one feel safer even though it's been demonstrated that some of the smaller setups are actually safer on the road.

One of the opinions over on one of the TDI forums is that the automobile industry has absolutely no good reason to let people know that you don't need a great big huge gas guzzler to tow. They want you to go out and buy aforementioned guzzler. I'm thinking that's about the way of it, myself.

[Nuvite-F]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

On the legal issues, these have already been discussed at length in this forum. It has been established that tow ratings have no legal standing either in the US or Canada so to seek to apportion some liability on that basis is a complete non-starter.

Originally Posted by mojo

Towing capacity measures the maximum weight that a vehicle can safely and legally haul.

Mr. mojo, meet Mr. Toad. . .
.

[RUMSHIP]

I think Wally started all this nonsense when he hooked up a trailer to his bicycle. Dam him. I wonder what his power to weight ratio was? I think I'll stick to my truck that goes up the faster then 10 miles an hour and doesn't need the trailer brakes to stop my family if they fail. I'm surprised no one had mentioned an effect of bad weather or passing large trucks, the tail waging the dog. I'm done, continue.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by mojo

Towing capacity measures the maximum weight that a vehicle can safely and legally haul.

It'll be a bad day for democracy when vehicle manufacturers set the laws.


Hello Mr Mojo

[Jim Clark]

CanAm can blow all the smoke they want they don't know more about the vehicles than the manufactures. No matter what a person believes when they end up in court after an accident and they have exceeded the manufactures rated towing capacity or modified the vehicle they will lose. The claim can very easily exceed the coverage and then the lawyers will come after their assets. If they are a user of this forum and especially have been on this thread it would be hard to deny that they were not aware of the consequences of uprating a tow vehicle beyond the rated capacity. I find it hard to accept that CanAm has more knowledgeable engineers and lawyers than manufactures.

I will ask the question again dose CanAm require a client to sign a document releasing CanAm of liability in the case of an accident after they modify a tow vehicle ? It may be on the small print on the receipt a client signs, check the paper work.

Jim

[Jim Clark]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

It'll be a bad day for democracy when vehicle manufacturers set the laws.


Hello Mr Mojo

This is the guidance provide by the manufacture as to what they believe their product will safely tow. This is provide to a consumer so that they can make an informed decision how to use their product safely and correctly. It also protects the manufacture when the product is used incorrectly or modified.

The law may be that the information has to be provide to prevent the misuse of the product.

Much like stating that this can holds 8 ounces or product.

I have to think you don't believe in any standards or disclosers.

Jim