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Old 08-28-2008, 09:23 AM   #1
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window dressing: visual acuity and insulation - good ol days of storm windows

Good old storm windows. Anybody remember putting them up and taking them down, and painting them, and cleaning them? And figuring out which one goes where? And heaving them up in the garage rafters?

Well its time to think about them again.

I want to put up temporary "storm windows" on the Safari. This would be for late fall and early spring use, to reduce condensation and improve insulation, but preserve the view.

So how do I do this? I have searched the forums, and am not sure how to proceed. Some use insulation and foam (but this cancels the view). Some use shrink wrap plastic (ewww....).

I thought about clear (or darkened) plexiglass with foam and snaps on the inside of the flip-out windows.

Has anybody tried that? Any specs on it? Curved window glass makes it a little iffy.

I don't think the dark mesh used by Lewster for hot weather is going to help in cold weather.




or should I just wait for global warming?
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:34 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by hshovic View Post
Good old storm windows. Anybody remember putting them up and taking them down, and painting them, and cleaning them? And figuring out which one goes where? And heaving them up in the garage rafters?

Well its time to think about them again.

I want to put up temporary "storm windows" on the Safari. This would be for late fall and early spring use, to reduce condensation and improve insulation, but preserve the view.

So how do I do this? I have searched the forums, and am not sure how to proceed. Some use insulation and foam (but this cancels the view). Some use shrink wrap plastic (ewww....).

I thought about clear (or darkened) plexiglass with foam and snaps on the inside of the flip-out windows.

Has anybody tried that? Any specs on it? Curved window glass makes it a little iffy.

I don't think the dark mesh used by Lewster for hot weather is going to help in cold weather.



or should I just wait for global warming?
Airstream tried the same thing with double pane windows.

Unless you have an absolute positive seal, moisture will collect between the two panes.

The double pane, to some degree, would be a thermal barrier, but I wouls suggest that you leave a small hole between the two panes, so that the moisture will not build up.

Andy
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:59 AM   #3
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Hank,
Depends on what you are trying to do. In my part of the country (south Atlantic seaboard) cold isn't the issue. I use Reflectix in the windows, to bounce the heat away, but you can't see out when it is in there. For cold weather I just draw the drapes and turn the heat up. FWIW Airstreams are not particularly thermally efficient. AFAIK the ribs have little to no thermal breaks on them, other than a thin strip of sealant. They will and do transmit heat and cold.

Aaron
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:08 AM   #4
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Hank,
Depends on what you are trying to do. In my part of the country (south Atlantic seaboard) cold isn't the issue. I use Reflectix in the windows, to bounce the heat away, but you can't see out when it is in there. For cold weather I just draw the drapes and turn the heat up. FWIW Airstreams are not particularly thermally efficient. AFAIK the ribs have little to no thermal breaks on them, other than a thin strip of sealant. They will and do transmit heat and cold.

Aaron
Aaron.

An Aistream shell, has a total metal structure from outside to inside.

The only place sealer is used, is on the seams, but never beteen two metals.

When exterior metal is replaced, at least by a select few, a bead of Vulkem is used between the seams.

However, any thermal insulating gain, would be negated by the rivets.

Separting the outside metal from the inside, using a non conducting material, would be a monumenal task.

Then we would be back to double pane, or true thermopane windows, again.

Maybe some type of composite would work.

Andy
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:50 AM   #5
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Aaron.

An Aistream shell, has a total metal structure from outside to inside.

The only place sealer is used, is on the seams, but never beteen two metals.

When exterior metal is replaced, at least by a select few, a bead of Vulkem is used between the seams.

However, any thermal insulating gain, would be negated by the rivets.

Separting the outside metal from the inside, using a non conducting material, would be a monumenal task.

Then we would be back to double pane, or true thermopane windows, again.

Maybe some type of composite would work.

Andy
Andy,
It may well be, but my trailer was assembled with a sealant between the skin and the outside of the ribs, it appears to be butyl. It is has similar properties to the sealants that we use in architectural metals. It is not UV stable. I had a section of rib off my 81 that I left exposed for a few weeks and the sun turn the sealant to a powder, which is the way butyl sealants behave.

Aaron
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:32 AM   #6
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Factory Tour

I took the tour about six months ago and noticed that they were using something between the ribs and the outside aluminum. It looked a lot like the 3-m foam stuff with adhesive on both sides that is used to hang those removable hooks - probably only 1/32 of an inch thick by about an inch wide. - isn't much of a thermal break is it?

If you were willing to do the WORK, you could probably pull out the screen spline, remove the screen and spline in a stretchy clear plastic panel. Of course come spring you'r be redoing every window - and it's hard, hard, hard to get old screening back in the slot with a spline - even if you use new spline material.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:54 AM   #7
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Another possibility would be to try that heat shrink storm window kit. You could tape it to the wall around the screen and then you hit with the blow dryer. I have used those in an old house with pretty decent results.

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Old 08-31-2008, 06:50 AM   #8
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Thanks for the responses. Sounds like there is no ready answer.
However, at a rally last week I met a Streamer that had replaced
all his windows (in an AS MOHO) with double pane glass from
Motion Windows: Series 1400.

I will check that out. What if they can put a double layer on my
flip outs?

Or maybe I just get a fan.
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:59 AM   #9
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Does your trailer have the Hehr windows, or the Classic windows?
If you wanted to, you could get pieces of Lexan, and cut them to fit the inner window area, and attach it with the mirror clips, such as hold the mirror on your wall at home. The Lexan will bend enough to fit the contour of the trailer, you would need a clip at mid-point up the side of the window.
This would be for the area between the window and screen, for the Classic windows.
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Old 09-01-2008, 02:22 PM   #10
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If you are trying to reduce condensation, use a dehumidifier. That is ultimatly the reason, isnt it? Cold outside warm inside or vice a versa. Unless of course your dealing with the old canvass on a pop up or tent. I remeber my dad "dont touch it" but we always did.
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:51 PM   #11
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I'm not sure which I have. Hehr or Classic. However, the lexan idea sounds like it would work, at least for the non-opening wrap arounds, and the flat rear window. I would have to drill the glass for the flat.
Sounds like an iterative cut and try fitting process to get it just right for the wraparounds. But they would be compressed with clips on the metal frame, not on the glass.
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Old 09-05-2008, 07:05 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
...The only place sealer is used, is on the seams, but never beteen two metals.

Separting the outside metal from the inside, using a non conducting material, would be a monumenal task.
on newer units the outer skin IS separated from the ribs and innerskin by a butyl adhesive layer...

rivets do pass through this layer into the ribs, but the theory is that hotncold conductivity has been reduced with this layer.

one can put an inner lexan layer in BUT the window glass will ice up INSIDE, and so will the window frames.

i've tried this, AND used reflectix inside in freezing weather, LOTS of ice between the reflectix and outer glass.

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Originally Posted by hshovic View Post
...So how do I do this?...
hi hs'...

your trailer has the classic style windows (part of the SE upgrades) ....

ANYTHING u try inside will lead to ICING inside.

you can add batting to the skylights and fantasic fan vents which will cut down some heat loss.

for the windows, what would be IDEAL is 'rock protector' like outer panels....

-lexan
-framed
-gasket sealed OUTSIDE
-attached to the window frames/skin just like the front wrap only SNUGGER...

but fabrication would a wad of money and they would need to be removed for travel. storage is also an issue.

i considered making a full size REFLECTIX toaster cozy to fit OVER the outside....

but it's sort of a large toaster...

cheers
2air'
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Old 01-31-2009, 09:02 PM   #13
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I've done some of all of the above. I cut to fit Reflectix for my large front curved window, used Velcro to secure in place. One large picture window that I used the shrink film on. For 2 windows in my bedroom I had plexiglass cut and used Velcro to secure them in place. I have a rear bath and lined the whole trunk area which is the back side to the bath vanity with Reflectix. Made a big difference in cold drafts. I looked briefly into replacement double pane windows and was too cost prohibitive for me ( untill I hit the lottery).
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