Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-30-2017, 06:57 AM   #1
jeffndaile
 
Jeffndaile's Avatar
 
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Clarkston , Washington
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 145
Help, we need DRY heat!

The wife and I live in our 28 foot flying cloud during the winter, the summer and every other time. As most of you know there is serious drawbacks to living in airstreams in the winter time and the main one for us is water and how to get rid of it.

Last winter was a record snowfall year here in Clarkston Washington and we discovered a few things. Electric heat is expensive and we don’t like the “ surprise” you get from the park office that says you owe more than you think you should. So we opted this year to get a catalytic heater so that it would eliminate electric heat all together as well as give us a source of heat we could use while Boondocking. The main problem with found with catalytic heater is the moisture we’re left with and how to get rid of it. We purchased two Eva-dry units for this reason hoping that they would eliminate water. We have the roof vents cracked all the time.

This morning we woke up rudely to puddles of water on the floor. Too much water!!! What is a good source of dry heat? (No wood stove people:-)
Jeffndaile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 07:07 AM   #2
Rivet Master
 
Lily&Me's Avatar

 
2007 Interstate
Normal , Illinois
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 18,051
Is your furnace not an option?

Maggie
__________________
🏡 🚐 Cherish and appreciate those you love. This moment could be your last.🌹🐚
Lily&Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 07:09 AM   #3
jeffndaile
 
Jeffndaile's Avatar
 
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Clarkston , Washington
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 145
Help, we need DRY heat!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily&Me View Post
Is your furnace not an option?



Maggie


No, the furnace is an option, But thinking that it runs on propane is well isn’t it going to give us the same moisture problems that the catalytic heater does?
Jeffndaile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 07:13 AM   #4
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,655
Images: 5
The Eva-Dry units just can't remove enough water from the air under those conditions. I wold suggest you get the smallest compressor driven dehumidifier you can find, dimensionally. 25 pint is probably the smallest capacity you will find. I found one several years ago which was a compact 25 pint unit, but they are no longer available.
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 07:17 AM   #5
jeffndaile
 
Jeffndaile's Avatar
 
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Clarkston , Washington
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
The Eva-Dry units just can't remove enough water from the air under those conditions. I wold suggest you get the smallest compressor driven dehumidifier you can find, dimensionally. 25 pint is probably the smallest capacity you will find. I found one several years ago which was a compact 25 pint unit, but they are no longer available.


I think, if the furnace is better as far as making less water inside, we may just stick to that during the cold months.... not sure if the furnace puts out dry heat though..
Jeffndaile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 07:22 AM   #6
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,655
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffndaile View Post
I think, if the furnace is better as far as making less water inside, we may just stick to that during the cold months.... not sure if the furnace puts out dry heat though..
That is true, and a furnace does not produce any moisture, as the combustion process (which produces water vapor), is separated from the heat exchanger and the moisture from combustion is exhausted outdoors. BUT.....each human exhales about a quart of water vapor a day....plus cooking, pets, etc. I think you will still find a need for a dehumidifier. I am doubtful that if you are spending 12 hours a day, or more, inside in cold weather, that the Eva-Dry units will keep up with that either.
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 07:34 AM   #7
4 Rivet Member
 
2012 28' International
Prince Edward County , Ontario
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 336
I also recommend the compressor type dehumidifier. We bought one for a late season trip down the west coast two years ago. They work very well and also provide a noticeable amount of heat. The only problem is finding a small one.
Cyclist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 07:48 AM   #8
Figment of My Imagination
 
Protagonist's Avatar
 
2012 Interstate Coach
From All Over , More Than Anywhere Else
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,868
I use an electric dehumidifier to remove moisture from the air. And I use my OEM furnace instead of a catalytic heater (more about that later).

I also alter my normal routine in order to put less moisture into the air in the first place.

I avoid showering in the Airstream in the winter so I add less water to the air. A sponge bath gets me just as clean without getting the air as wet. And waterless hand sanitizer can be used all over your body if necessary (except your hair, which I don't have on my scalp anyway), so I use more sanitizer in the winter versus washing with soap and water. But using hand sanitizer doesn't leave you feeling as clean, so sponge baths are still required (besides, if you have a spouse, you can give each other sponge baths, which is a lot more fun than doing it yourself). And baby wipes aren't just for babies, either. Grownups can use them too.

Plus, when winter camping, I almost never use real plates and tableware, instead strictly disposable paper and plastic, so I seldom have to fill the galley sink or let dishes air-dry. When I cook on the stove, pots and pans are washed using as little water as possible, and towel-dried instead of air-drying.

I use the microwave more than I use the stove, so there's less steam from cooking, and what steam there is collects inside the microwave where it can be wiped up with a paper towel instead of going into the air.

For temperature management, I try to keep the inside air as cool as I can stand it. Cool enough to need a sweater indoors is just about right. If the difference between indoor and outdoor temperatures is small, there will be less condensation on the walls, windows, and ceiling than if there's a big difference between indoor and outdoor temperatures.

But even with all of these techniques for reducing condensation in the winter, a catalytic heater is a poor choice for winter heating in terms of condensation (it's later, so here's the promised "more about that"). Any propane burned inside your Airstream, in a catalytic heater or your stove, produces more than three quarts of water for every gallon of propane burned. Make no mistake, even though there's no flame in a catalytic heater, the propane is still burned in that it still combines with oxygen to produce combustion byproducts such as water vapor.

Since a typical RV catalytic heater burns 0.3 pounds of propane per hour of use, and propane weighs 4.2 pounds per gallon, if the heater is on half the time, you'll use a gallon of propane a day, and put over 3 quarts of water vapor into the air.

A catalytic heater is a more efficient heater than a furnace, because the furnace wastes about 15% of the heat produced through the exhaust. But the furnace has a distinct advantage in that combustion takes place outside the living spaces, so zero moisture is added to the inside air by the furnace. (On edit— that's not necessarily dry heat, because the furnace also doesn't remove any moisture that already present.) Given my choice between wetness inside and lost heat outside, I'll take the lost heat outside.

But even if you go back to using the furnace instead of the catalytic heater, you can't get rid of moisture in their air completely, because just breathing puts plenty of water vapor into the air. Every person who breathes inside an Airstream adds nearly a pint (400ml, not a quart) of water vapor to the air every day. But a good-quality and properly-sized electric dehumidifier will generally take care of that much water vapor each day.
__________________
I thought getting old would take longer!
Protagonist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 07:52 AM   #9
retired USA/USAF
 
2001 30' Excella
Somerset , New Jersey
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,418
I installed a catalytic heater last year in our '01 Excella 30' classic. It is actually built by a guy in Washington state and is a built in unit, not free standing. We are not full timers so I cannot speak for it's function in real winter weather but in the cool spring and fall seasons it worked very well. It is vented to the outside and has a thermostat to control it's operation along with an automatic spark igniter. So no pilot lights. Since it's vented I think it would create minimum interior moisture. We have used it on a few cool evenings but have not seen the need to let it operate overnight. It was not a cheap unit but I'm very happy with it. I think you would need the cabinet space to install this unit so it may not be suitable for all applications. The cutout dimension was approx. 11"x14" with a back set of perhaps 2.5". The rear cabinet of the heating unit does not get hot.
__________________
Roger in NJ

" Democracy is the worst form of government. Except for all the rest"
Winston Churchill 1948

TAC - NJ 18

polarlyse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 08:20 AM   #10
Rivet Master
 
A W Warn's Avatar
 
2000 25' Safari
Davidson County , NC Highlands County, FL
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,493
When a catalytic heater is not direct vented, the catalytic combustion gasses stay inside the trailer unless adequate ventilation is supplied (both inlet and exhaust). Puddles on the floor sounds like there is not enough air is flowing.
Open a through the roof vent (high) about 1" or less. Open a window (low) about 1" or less at the opposite end of the trailer. A high/low vent setup causes natural convection of warm air escaping through the highest vent. The warm air has the ability to carry more moisture. Though, I think this ventilation (and loss of heat) negates any efficiency a catalytic heater has over the furnace.

This ventilation is also a safety requirement when using a non vented catalytic heater.
See the warning in the user manual !!!!

Hope this helps.


What I do:
When on full hookups, I use two types of heat in combination. First I set an electric heater's thermostat on the temperature that is comfortable and set the heat on low (900 watt) setting. Then I set the furnace thermostat a few degrees lower, so that it will supplement the electric heat. 40 lbs of propane gets me through the winter season (in FL) and the electric bill is manageable.
__________________
Alan
2014 Silverado LTZ 1500 Crew Cab 5.3L maximum trailering package
A W Warn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 08:26 AM   #11
Vintage Kin
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
Images: 1
A rolling dehumidifier is worth the trouble. I use mine year round in conjunction with a hygrometer. 40% is target. It lives under the dinette table with the exhaust blowing out into the aisle.

In winter with that configuration I also turn on the A/C fan to get all the air in the TT into play. There then comes a point where comfort is reached, and that fan is turned off and the DH is capable of keeping problems at bay. But, cooking, bathing, etc means another round of conditioning.

Over time one learns what works.

The biggest objection to the DH is its size. One makes accommodations for living outside the envelope. Summer is the same problem (keeping covered all but a few windows). I also use a large BlueAir air filtration unit that takes up floor space. Again, the benefits outweigh the problems.

When one is other than an occasional user (vacationer), compromises have to be figured.

Interior storm windows are useful in both coldest or hottest weather.

In the cold I prefer the use of the furnace. But not exclusively. I also use a Dyson space heater, and plan one or two vented cat heaters. Sure there’s an upfront expense and a learning curve.

I’ve also looked at the CheapHeat retrofit, as I’d like to be able to maximize either all-propane heating, or all-electric heating (but that last done properly — built in upgrade — as constant use of several electric space heaters is not, IMO, what an RV wiring system was designed to accommodate).

But as the DH is applicable far outside the heating season, it’ll always be part of the mix.

.
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 10:26 AM   #12
1 Rivet Member
 
1957 22' Flying Cloud
seattle , Washington
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 7
wondering about "no wood stove" comment? I am considering a wood stove in my 57' flying cloud remodel. Is it just the idea of feeding it constantly or something else? Just curios. thanks.
youngmg69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 10:32 AM   #13
Rivet Master
 
2019 25' Flying Cloud
Sequim , Washington
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 522
Blog Entries: 2
[QUOTE=Protagonist;2040465]

When I cook on the stove, pots and pans are washed using as little water as possible, and towel-dried instead of air-drying.

A thorough an interesting analysis, as usual. And the correction for the volume exhaled water vapor is more accurate (I am a health care professional), though the mutual sponge baths might increase that amount slightly .

One question: where do you put the water from the towel used to dry your dishes?
__________________
D2
"Having differences makes a difference"
WestieHouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 10:34 AM   #14
jeffndaile
 
Jeffndaile's Avatar
 
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Clarkston , Washington
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmg69 View Post
wondering about "no wood stove" comment? I am considering a wood stove in my 57' flying cloud remodel. Is it just the idea of feeding it constantly or something else? Just curios. thanks.


Simply no place to put it.
Jeffndaile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 10:39 AM   #15
Figment of My Imagination
 
Protagonist's Avatar
 
2012 Interstate Coach
From All Over , More Than Anywhere Else
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,868
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestieHouse View Post
One question: where do you put the water from the towel used to dry your dishes?
Dry it outside, weather permitting. Or in a laundry room dryer if I also have dirty clothes in need of washing/drying. If neither of those is practical, I hang the towel in the wet bath with the door closed and the ceiling vent fan running.
__________________
I thought getting old would take longer!
Protagonist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 10:47 AM   #16
4 Rivet Member
 
4riveteers's Avatar
 
2016 27' Flying Cloud
Manteca , California
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 388
Hello there "Mr." Protagonist.
Let me start with saying "We really enjoy reading your posts". We value them and your opinions highly, they always make clear and common sense. We have learned a lot from reading them, please continue supplying us all with your wealth of knowledge.

We have a 2016 27FB Flying Cloud. Our first Airstream. Love it and everything about it and the people we have met since we took delivery of it last year. We use it a couple of four day trips per month (I still have to work for a few more years before I retire and get out and do some "big trips".
We reside in California and spend a large amount of our outings on the west coast in Monterey (Sea level) and at Pinnicle's National Park just south of Hollister (elevation tops out around 1500 feet).

I would like to hear your opinion on the use of the "Reflectix" (silver bubble wrap) insulation material up against the interior windows. When we purchased our AS I took the time to custom cut to size the reflectix to fit snuggly against every window we have (and there's allot of them). We can feel an immediate improvement of "cold reduction". I think it is rated at "R1"? or a bit less. They stay put and are quick and easy to apply and remove. I noticed the few times we use them on cold nights the next morning there is a high amount of condensation against the glass. We general use full hookup. At night we typically run a small electric heater on low to brake the chill and tad of white noise to help drown out outside noises. We also use and set our furnace @ 60 degrees F. We don't like burning anything inside the living space, so catalytic combustion type heat is out of the question for us!

You opinion on the concept of covering glass surfaces and this product please?
Is the comfort worth the condensation?

John & Stacy
Manteca, Ca.
4riveteers
__________________

2016 27 Flying Cloud FB
2005 GMC Yukon XL 2500 4x4, Equal-i-zer Hitch, 4.10 axle ratio.
4riveteers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 10:54 AM   #17
jeffndaile
 
Jeffndaile's Avatar
 
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Clarkston , Washington
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 145
The real problem here is that AS’s have the very worst “recipe” for condensation of any RV out there. Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1010.JPG
Views:	296
Size:	331.8 KB
ID:	300034
The condensation is a natural result of how they’re built.... cold metal on the outside, directly riveted to warm metal on the inside. Very bad combination.

The question is, why in tarnation, doesn’t AS use foam board to insulate these guys? Instead of the fluffy pink stuff that when it gets wet, which it definitely will, loses its ability to insulate?

I only wish Northern lite built travel trailers.....
Jeffndaile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 10:57 AM   #18
jeffndaile
 
Jeffndaile's Avatar
 
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Clarkston , Washington
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 145
Oh, here’s a shot of how the floor is attached if anybody’s interested Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1009.JPG
Views:	258
Size:	274.9 KB
ID:	300035
Jeffndaile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 11:19 AM   #19
Figment of My Imagination
 
Protagonist's Avatar
 
2012 Interstate Coach
From All Over , More Than Anywhere Else
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,868
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4riveteers View Post
I would like to hear your opinion on the use of the "Reflectix" (silver bubble wrap) insulation material up against the interior windows.
I use Reflectix on most of my side windows in my Interstate.

The reason for using Reflectix is that I really couldn't stand the blinds that came with the Interstate. They didn't really provide any privacy because if the inside lights were on, everyone in the van was silhouetted against the blinds. No outside viewer could see who anyone was, but they could see what the people inside were doing.

More importantly, the blinds did absolutely nothing to control heat loss in winter or heat gain in summer. The Reflectix does reduce summer heat gain so that my air conditioner can keep the interior temperature below 85°F on the hottest summer days even when I'm parked in the sun— which happens at nearly every rally. (Side note: Why don't rally organizers like trees, and always pick venues that have none?)

The Reflectix has another benefit in that it makes the interior of my Airstream as dark as a cave even at noon so I can sleep whenever the mood strikes me.

None of this addresses your question, though. I didn't start using the Reflectix until this summer, so I don't have any winter experience to see how it affects condensation. Yet. But if condensation on the glass is a problem, the first thing I will try is to crack the windows open slightly (just enough to break the seal), so cooler air can circulate between the Reflectix and the glass. This may help minimize condensation by reducing the temperature differential between the inside of the glass and the outside of the glass.
__________________
I thought getting old would take longer!
Protagonist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2017, 11:38 AM   #20
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,674
Hi

One of the most basic sources of moisture in an AS is the people (and pets). If you winter camp in a tightly sealed tent, you will be pretty wet in the morning.

If you do not cover the windows in some way, you will pull most of the internal moisture out on them as condensation. Popping the windows each day and mopping them off from the outside *is* one way to dehumidify the trailer. I would not recommend it as a long term solution

You can buy the moisture absorbing "stuff" by the pound. A 5 gallon pail will pull out more moisture than a little puck will. Moving the air over the stuff also helps. Either way, you need to dry it out from time to time. Tossing it in the stove is the normal approach. In the case of a trailer, you just drove it all back into the living space. Not a great plan

Once you rule out electric *and* you want dry heat, you have limited choices. All of the practical options involve combustion. That will give off moisture as a byproduct. Unless you vent the combustion byproducts outside, you will have to deal with moisture.

Venting the trailer to reduce moisture is one way to do the job. It is a bit of a disaster in terms of heating efficiency. Exchanging the hot air for dry cold air (without running a heat exchanger) is expensive. Compressor driven dehumidifiers also cost something to run. They dump heat into the space. Some of the cost is recouped by the heat gained. Don't bother with the thermo electric ones. I have not seen one yet that does an adequate job ....

Lots of twists and turns. No ideal solutions .....

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To Dry or Not to Dry...that is the question 4riveteers Dehumidifiers & Ozone Generators 12 11-12-2019 08:32 AM
Heat pump or heat strips? coolwhip40 Furnaces, Heaters, Fireplaces & Air Conditioning 17 05-03-2018 09:27 AM
Using the heat pump/heat strip instead of furnace. crazylev On The Road... 38 10-28-2016 07:58 PM
To heat pump, or not to heat pump, that is the ?? MacDad Furnaces, Heaters, Fireplaces & Air Conditioning 16 09-06-2014 09:58 PM
New AC, Heat Pump or Heat strip? firedog 1990 - 1993 Excella 3 01-22-2010 04:23 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.