Laminate Flooring: which is best?

[perryg114]

I would don't think cork would have too many issues with water but the substrate might. Can't you find some that is solid cork that does not have the particle board substrate? You are going to put polyurathane where?

Perry

[cameront120]

Touring Dan, why not use a linoleum, such as Marmoleum, if you don't want vinyl? Linoleum is a natural product and very suitable to the appearance of an Airstream (not to mention period correct for older trailers). Some of the VCT (vinyl composite tile) out there, such as the Amtico, would also be suitable.

[Suzzeee]

I second what Cameron said .. Marmoleum is very cool -- I saw my first trailer floor done in that a few weeks ago and loved it. I just sent for the brochures and some samples and really like what I saw. Marmoleum is nothing like sheet vinyl and it comes in tiles, sheets and they have a click product too if you like that floating floor style! They have a zillion colors/patterns too!

[dana62448]

I REALLY wanted the cork engineered flooring, so I called the manufacturer. I wheedled and begs and offered to use aircraft epoxy and footies and never drink liquids indoors and he said.........no, you will be unhappy. The product is for indoor use where there is a stable temperature and humidity. The cork is actually a composite of ground cork with a thin veneer of sheet cork over it. He said the cork absorbs water. I know this from my wine collection. They use cork so the wine can breathe over decades.
Ok, now do what you will with the cork.

[TouringDan]

Dana

Sometimes you need to go against the nay sayers and just do what you want to do, to see if it works for you. I bought a BMW sport touring motorcycle in 1981 that the dealer said I could not ride long distances on. I rode that bike over 80,000 miles. I toured on it just fine.

I know others have installed cork floors in their Airstreams. I would like to hear from some of these folks, especially the ones that have had problems and would not do it again.

The manufacturer is scared. He sells 100 sq ft of flooring for a trailer. If you have a problem, you may give his product a lousy review on the internet. This may affect his home sales for cork flooring. He sees no benefit to encouraging you to use his product and a huge risk.

Suzzeee, Cameron

I will take another look at marmoleum, but I am really drawn to the cork. I may try the cork cuz that is what I want and to see how well it does. If it does not do well, I can always go with the marmoleum.

Dan

[Gene]

Some of these issues and water problems are being explored on this thread: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f46/...ml#post1109885

The question of what floor to use confounds many of us. What happens underneath the floor is eventually even more important. I am tearing out the OEM floor because it gets humps in it in the winter. Subzero temps seem to bring problems to the cheap sheet vinyl. The trailer contracts and the floor doesn't change that much, so it has to go somewhere—up. Floors are supposed to have expansion spaces around the floor, but Airstream doesn't install them that way. The sheet vinyl is very thin (less than 1/16" or about 1.5 mm.) and traps water underneath it. I discovered a leak near the door when I took up the vinyl and a water stain on the plywood about half way across the trailer. Eventually rot and/or mold would have developed.

The best floor to prevent water damage would be to leave the subfloor exposed to air so the water could dry. Most of us would find this unacceptable. The plywood grade Airstream used in ours is not an "A" quality, paintable surface.

As has been said, most laminates have an MDF lower layer and if exposed to water, swell and ruin the plank or tile. Not all laminates are made that way. I have bought vinyl laminate planks—no MDF, just layers of vinyl and a rubber like bottom surface to keep the plank from moving. This is loose lay floor from Karndean. They say it does not expand or contract indoors, but for extremes of temperature keep the plank edges 1/4" from walls and use a pressure sensitive adhesive around the edges and every 10'. I may use the adhesive at the seams between the planks.

I will have to find an adhesive that works at extremes of temperature also. The problem with the peal and stick tiles is that the adhesive may only be for room temperatures. Since we could not confirm what adhesive was used, we stayed away from them. The Karndean tiles can be lifted up by suction cup or toilet plunger—this kind of adhesive also allows that. So we can check the plywood for leaks.

We looked at the Traffic Master and it looked pretty good. It is the Home Depot house brand. But we didn't like the narrow planks (Karndean is about 10" wide and about 4' long). The Karndean appeared to be better quality.

Another issue is thickness. Interlocking floating floors have to be thick enough for the locking ends to not be too fragile and have the surface layer as well. A lot seem to be around 7/16" and that causes problems with clearance under some doors in our trailer. The floor we bought is close to 3/16" and that will be an easier fit. We also have to fit trim over the spaces between the edge of the floor and the partitions and cabinets. Mostly it will be quarter round, although some rubber molding will necessary around the curved edge of the kitchen cabinet peninsula. If you do this, do not nail the the trim to the floor because it has to move.

We probably didn't go to enough stores, but didn't see any linoleum. We would prefer a natural product. One HD store claimed the Traffic Master boxes were linoleum, but a close reading showed they were actually vinyl. I'd rather stay away from vinyl, but it seems to be the best choice of not all that great choices we found. Cork would be great, but it always seems to be on a substrate which can be a problem. You can coat the surface with something like an exterior polyurethane to reduce water infiltration.

Now I'm wondering whether there is water damage to the subfloor under the carpet in the bedroom, but I'm not wanting to pull that up now.

Gene

[dana62448]

The people here are not buying stuff for Airstream Techs to install. They are here because they do the work themselves and are frugal.(cheap) Hence we tend to to buy discount and value products. This week I ventured into the high end/commercial store and was blown away by the new vinyl products. The new "click" flooring is very thin, perhaps 1/8".
It seems that all the click floors are floating and I wanted a glued floor. I have selected a vinyl plank floor. I am convinced that it will wear longer than me and is sealed from water from above.
I found my leak on my '05 CCD. It is a pucker between the aluminum C channel and the steel plate on the top of the bumper. (Huge design flaw) I have no chalking on the outside under the belly band and a cup of water on the bumper yields a teaspoon inside over the next ten minutes. I have replaced the rotted OSB floor with marine grade ply and have covered the whole thing with underlayment. Mine is a rear bath and I will not bore you with the details of removing that.
My concern is an earlier post about glued planks that seperated and weeped glue between pieces. I am hoping this is an older style vinyl or glue. The Factory Installer said there are two ways to use the glue. If you set the tile in wet glue it is permanent. If you lay the glue and wait for a hour and then set the plank, they are removable with heat and a putty knife.
Can I hear from anyone who has set vinyl planks, about separation between the planks?

[barts]

The best floor to prevent water damage would be to leave the subfloor exposed to air so the water could dry. Most of us would find this unacceptable. The plywood grade Airstream used in ours is not an "A" quality, paintable surface.

When we bought the Tin Pickle, there were areas with water damage and rot. After repairing the rotted sections, we filled any holes and epoxied the floor, and then painted the floor with a aluminum-filled moisture cured polyurethane. We put rugs over that.

It's not a show-room finish - but it works really well for camping, and the rugs are easily removed and cleaned. If we have a leak, we find it right away.

- Bart

[dana62448]

This is a response to my own question. Shortly after I posted, the factory rep for Evoke floor coverings called and left great information that I feel should be shared with all who are struggling with this issue.
1. He said that in investigating separation in plank installations, he finds that it is an install issue. The glue has flashed over and the plank moves. So done properly this should never be a problem even in a flexing floor installation.
2. Be sure that the product you buy does not contain limestone (Who knew!)
Apparently 90% of all vinyl flooring contains limestone which cracks especially under temperature change. The Evoke product is 100% PVC body. There may be others as well but one can't depend on Designer/ Sales people to know these things. Also, some wear resistant finishes contain glass bead, this is also a cracking risk with temperature and flex. Look for pure polyurethane.
3. This product is a "continuous roll process" as opposed to a "hot roll process". As such it is water bathed, hot, cold, hot, cold to anneal it. This is why they recommend it for wide temperature swings. (He was calling from Minnesota)
4. In addition to the usual floor adhesive, they sell an Epoxy Floor Adhesive. They don't normally recommend it to consumers, but then, he doesn't know this group! He said if the layer has the ability that this is the best way to form a strong composite floor that won't crack.
5. I was going to lay Luan underlayment on top of my repairs to form a smooth surface. He said that luan is soft and with high traffic it flexes too much under the flooring. He recommended either a high density composite or thin Baltic birch. I'm going with the latter.

There you go, that's all I know. Your mileage may vary.

[Gene]

I think the limestone content of vinyl flooring varies and the cheaper the vinyl, the more limestone. I imagine more limestone would make the vinyl more brittle at any temperature. In taking up the OEM sheet vinyl I noticed it is fairly brittle.

Not only do you have to make sure you have a vinyl that resists temp changes, but the glue must be for exterior use. I was looking yesterday at tables for different glues and some are better with a variation of temps than others (acrylic based is better than rubber based). If you are going to glue the floor, it is important to make a bond at the edges of the floor that will not let water run under the floor. Water under the floor is a big issue.

I like Bart's idea of putting throw rugs over a well sealed floor. Using loose lay vinyl planks with a removable pressure sensitive glue is my solution. The glue will retard water infiltration and we can lift the planks to see how the floor is doing. But water that seeps between the inner and outer walls and attacks the edges of the plywood subfloor is invisible until rot progresses inward.

Gene

[dana62448]

In my case, water is entering at the BOTTOM of the C channel and getting trapped between the BOTTOM of the flooring and the vapor barrier, which now becomes a bucket. If water were entering on the top of the floor, I would have seen it. The first warning I had was when the floor failed.

My interest in flooring is just to get get a low maintenance, quality floor that will withstand temperature and topical moisture, and remain flexible enough to be on a moving flexing platform.

The adhesive the Evoke Rep recommended is the two part poly/epoxy made by Apac:

APAC Products - Resilient Flooring-Covering Adhesives

[Gene]

Originally Posted by dana62448

My interest in flooring is just to get get a low maintenance, quality floor that will withstand temperature and topical moisture, and remain flexible enough to be on a moving flexing platform.

Well put.

I am thinking of putting a bead of rope putty around the edge of the floor to act as a water dam if (and when) water starts coming to the floor from a leak I haven't discovered yet. I'm not sure this is a good idea because the water may pool there and then attacks the subfloor edge rather than spread out under the floor and on the subfloor. I guess either is not good, but which is worse? The rope putty idea may be a bad idea.

Gene

[perryg114]

You want water on top of the floor not under it. If it is on top you can see leaks and deal with them.

Perry

[MaxAB]

We used a vinyl material with overlapping self-adhesive panels and a vapor barrier over our polyethylene-treated marine grade sub-floor. Looked great, wore well, cleaned up easy. However after the second REAL cold-dry winter, we opened her up to discover gaps between panels - probably due to very low humidity/temps last winter.

This time around, we're looking at Interlocking Tiles (ITTILES.COM) - and we're wondering if anyone has experience with these in AS... Thoughts?

[MaxAB]

UPDATE: After installing the IT-TILES last summer, I've logged about 45 days of road-time. So far, they are performing great. Installation time is about the same as using synthetic planks (which I used in the '77 31-footer in 2009). The tiles are about 16-inch square and the interlocking (jig-saw) pattern is hidden and the connections appear as straight seams. Weight-wise, I suspect these are about 20% heavier than the planks.

Easy to clean and even easier to remove and replace should a tile become damaged - this option shouldn't be affected by cold climates as was the case with the planks. Looks and wears well so far.

[badkat]

OK, thought I wanted something other than carpet...after this think I will take my changes carpet and rugs. Too much to think about.

[c_lewis77]

Originally Posted by badkat

OK, thought I wanted something other than carpet...after this think I will take my changes carpet and rugs. Too much to think about.

Things can sometimes seem to get overly technical and complicated on the forums. However, to simplify the conversation, you have many optio.s other than carpet. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. I chose an engineered wood floor and it has done very well. There are many laminate and vinyl/resiliant products that also work well. It is more a matter of what you are looking to do/want. Carpet is simple but has some limitations. I pulled the carpet out of mine when i first purchased my AS and it smelled awful. That made me cross carpet off my list of flooring options.
The improtant thing is to use a material that can take temp and humidity swing in stride and cleans easy.

Good luck!

[MaxAB]

Originally Posted by c_lewis77

Things can sometimes seem to get overly technical and complicated on the forums. However, to simplify the conversation, you have many optio.s other than carpet. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. I chose an engineered wood floor and it has done very well. There are many laminate and vinyl/resiliant products that also work well. It is more a matter of what you are looking to do/want. Carpet is simple but has some limitations. I pulled the carpet out of mine when i first purchased my AS and it smelled awful. That made me cross carpet off my list of flooring options.
The improtant thing is to use a material that can take temp and humidity swing in stride and cleans easy.

Good luck!

Great advice "C"!

After having re-done flooring on two AS's, some of the best return for my time invested has been carpet and pad removal. Seeing what's underneath and hidden by carpet is an eye-opener. Once removed, one can see where there might be dry-rotted sub-floor conditions, not to mention many years of dirt and grime that just doesn't come up with routine vacuuming and carpet cleaning. When removing carpet from my '77, the PO had installed his new carpet over the factory-installed carpet in many areas. In vintage rigs, carpet/pad removal is like turning back the sands of time - very interesting. I suspect that few owners opt to go back to wall-to-wall carpet once removing the old stuff -

My $0.02 - Cheers!

[Lothlorian]

My first Airstream I used discontinued laminate. The store only had so many sq ft. left. It was expensive because of the design. Looks great.

The second Airstream I put in hardwood floors. They were glued down and they look great. The hardwood was so much easier to put down then the hardwood. The hardwood is what I will use when I start on my third one. SSSSHHHHHH! my wife might be listening. Ha Ha

Brian

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by Lothlorian

...The hardwood was so much easier to put down then the hardwood...

?

Huh?