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Old 03-04-2010, 08:57 AM   #113
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He is speaking of the reflective foil types installed in a favorable orientation with the correct 'dead air' spaces. Up to R-14+ in certain circumstances, such as bouncing heat upwards by helping it do what it naturally wants to do - rise. Where that rating drops is holding heat down, or cold up and it falls back to R-6 or less.

Non bubble "foil-foam-foil" was my choice...
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Old 03-04-2010, 02:59 PM   #114
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Boatdoc
Could you please give us the name and type insulation that yields an R factor of 12+ in only 1/2" thickness ? Thanks
Hi ticky2
As Wabbiteer has said One of them is reflectix. Walls do not absorb as much heat as the roof. I have done my Argosy with back to back two layers. One reflects heat away the other keeps heat in. With 15.000 BTU low profile Carrier my trailer becomes a refrigerator in 95 degree heat with direct sun. It is nice and overly toasty in cold temps. Walls had urethane foam 5/8" strips glued onto outer skin. Reflectix was cut oversize and cut edges of each panel were glued with 3M 5200 onto the ribs. After the adhesive set up pre-cut edges were trimmed to 1/16" past the rib. This way the inner skins sealed the cut edges by compressing them during installation. One important note; you must provide some exit holes in the bottom channel to drain any possible condensation. My floor is a 5/8" aluminum clad on both sides plywood. I have drilled four 1/4" holes per side in the attaching to the floor channel at even distances. Into the holes a aluminum tubing was driven in to seal the plywood. I do not camp in below 0 temps therefore it is more than sufficient for me. We ran a test last late Fall at 34 degree temp. Our furnace kicked in for 7 minutes every 160 minutes. That may not be good enough for some folks, but I think it turned out great. Most times we keep the kitchen window cracked open an inch to eliviate the condensation inside. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 03-04-2010, 03:15 PM   #115
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I appreciate the advice, Boatdoc, but the deal is done. The spray foam is in. As for air quality, maybe I'm a bit fatalistic having grown up in Libby, Montana, ground zero for vermiculite.

We chose the foam for a number of reasons. It has good insulating qualities. It should reduce noise from outside the coach. I spoke with one of the engineers at Icynene about the product. He felt it was appropriate for a mobile environment where shock and vibration issues were present. Honestly, I couldn't find any information that suggested outgassing or particulant issues. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I did do my homework before we pulled the trigger. I'm also not opposed to putting a small HEPA air filtration unit.
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Old 03-04-2010, 06:24 PM   #116
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Old 03-04-2010, 06:33 PM   #117
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Boatdoc and Wabbeteer , i appreciate the response but I did ask a very specific question that did not get answered . I have been a builder for 40 years and know of no such product . Still always willing to learn.
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:53 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by ticki2 View Post
Boatdoc and Wabbeteer , i appreciate the response but I did ask a very specific question that did not get answered . I have been a builder for 40 years and know of no such product . Still always willing to learn.
Hi ticky; Sorry that I have misunderstood your question but at times mind does not follow the print. Here is the scoop;

R-Values is not the only factor to consider [sorry Wabbiteer]. Simply putting it the technique of installation can reduce R-Value in half. It is important to consider reflective and conductive R-Values of insulation. Any polyurethane spray foam offers only R-Value of 6.3 per 1" of thickness.
With 1.5" of available wall depth you are under R-10 Value. It must be said here that conductive transfer is excellent, however it comes short in reflective properties. See www.pasprayfoam.com. Fiberglass insulation offers very little in Conductive properties as the air flow is not restricted unless the vapor barrier is sealed well and not perforated by items such as wires fittings of all sort, etc. In order to achieve maximum R-Value one must look at both factors.

The ease of installation of bubble foils makes sense. It can offer you great reflectivity as well as conductive transfer barrier. One of products is Refleticx. There is other products of quality such as FarmTex and "Foil double bubble foil" from Texfoil. Most of them are 97 percent reflective and with only 0.03 emissivity, 100% vapor barrier, resists mildew, fungus insects and rodents and it has Class/AClass fire rating.
First you must understand conditions to which your Airstream will be exposed to. Climate in which you will do most of your camping should dictate different approach to your needs. If you camp in 120 degree
temperatures you will need to have reflectivity on both sides of your foil.
Most bubble Foils are reflective on one side. The curved area of the roof should receive back to back foil to keep heat out and in. The wall in most application may need only one layer, but attention needs to be paid to stopping Conductive Transfer from the roof area into walls. It can be done by providing a separating vapor barrier between the two spaces. Also, be sure to provide a air space on both sides of the foil which adds a bit to R-Value. This can be done by gluing strips of rigid foam on the inside of the outer roof and wall skins and gluing in a stretched bubble foil to maintain an air space rather than placing it on the skins. Provide enough excess to wrap the foil along the ribs to minimize area of Conductive Transfer. Be sure all edges are sealed. Work requires lot of measuring and fitting but it is fun. No need to outsource the labor unless you do not have time to DIY. I hope this clarifies the point. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 03-05-2010, 03:14 PM   #119
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Boatdoc,

I have used Reflectix on some windows and skylight and both sides look the same to me. If I understand your posts, they are not and that's why you double it. I don't understand.

By putting it on all the bedroom windows, it has moderated temps a bit even though it doesn't seal as well as putting it in walls.

Gene
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:54 PM   #120
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Are there any pics here or elsewhere of that '73? I'd really like to have a '72 Avion, but am growing more fond of '73-'76.
Here are a couple from the 2009 Fall Vintage Rally. Nothing up close though.
Ours is a 73 Travelcader. 25 footer with a center double bed and a factory convertible fold down bunk.
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Old 03-06-2010, 01:34 PM   #121
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Reflectix is probably available in one and two sided foil.
I opted for Prodex instead. I think its a step up in quality and effectiveness over Rflctx. Its more rigid, and supplies a better sound dampening than rflctx, and its two sided. I also use it to cover my windows and it makes a HUGE difference in interior temperature stability. I made pieces that fit my screen holders so I can easily put them up or take them down. They are contact-cemented to 1/8" mahogany plywood which gives them a very nice look on the interior. This small thing probably increased my over-all R-rating by 25%, considering I have nine windows in a 18' long shell.
I'm not so adventurous or well-monied to be able to experiment with spray foam on my Safari(besides, I've already insulated, and I'm very happy with it) but I have seen some spray foams that remain somewhat flexible after curing. I would think that would be the stuff to try in an Airstream. No doubt you will have the quietest Airstream around after doing this to it. My concerns would be : does if deform the shell as it expands, does it increase the problem of interior condensation, does it cause new, as yet unidentified issues relating to shell and vent leaks and locating them and does it degrade over time in a flexing situation.

Rich the Viking

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Boatdoc,

I have used Reflectix on some windows and skylight and both sides look the same to me. If I understand your posts, they are not and that's why you double it. I don't understand.

By putting it on all the bedroom windows, it has moderated temps a bit even though it doesn't seal as well as putting it in walls.

Gene
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Old 03-06-2010, 04:53 PM   #122
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Different foams have different expansion qualities. If you get the ones that expand a lot, you can have some bad problems.

We used Velcro to install the Reflectix. We remove it from the fans when we want to use them, but have left it up in the bedroom for a while—keeps it dark and we can use the fan for ventilation.

Gene
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Old 03-06-2010, 08:52 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by boatdoc View Post
Hi ticky; Sorry that I have misunderstood your question but at times mind does not follow the print. Here is the scoop;

R-Values is not the only factor to consider [sorry Wabbiteer]. Simply putting it the technique of installation can reduce R-Value in half. It is important to consider reflective and conductive R-Values of insulation. Any polyurethane spray foam offers only R-Value of 6.3 per 1" of thickness.
With 1.5" of available wall depth you are under R-10 Value. It must be said here that conductive transfer is excellent, however it comes short in reflective properties. See www.pasprayfoam.com. Fiberglass insulation offers very little in Conductive properties as the air flow is not restricted unless the vapor barrier is sealed well and not perforated by items such as wires fittings of all sort, etc. In order to achieve maximum R-Value one must look at both factors.

The ease of installation of bubble foils makes sense. It can offer you great reflectivity as well as conductive transfer barrier. One of products is Refleticx. There is other products of quality such as FarmTex and "Foil double bubble foil" from Texfoil. Most of them are 97 percent reflective and with only 0.03 emissivity, 100% vapor barrier, resists mildew, fungus insects and rodents and it has Class/AClass fire rating.
First you must understand conditions to which your Airstream will be exposed to. Climate in which you will do most of your camping should dictate different approach to your needs. If you camp in 120 degree
temperatures you will need to have reflectivity on both sides of your foil.
Most bubble Foils are reflective on one side. The curved area of the roof should receive back to back foil to keep heat out and in. The wall in most application may need only one layer, but attention needs to be paid to stopping Conductive Transfer from the roof area into walls. It can be done by providing a separating vapor barrier between the two spaces. Also, be sure to provide a air space on both sides of the foil which adds a bit to R-Value. This can be done by gluing strips of rigid foam on the inside of the outer roof and wall skins and gluing in a stretched bubble foil to maintain an air space rather than placing it on the skins. Provide enough excess to wrap the foil along the ribs to minimize area of Conductive Transfer. Be sure all edges are sealed. Work requires lot of measuring and fitting but it is fun. No need to outsource the labor unless you do not have time to DIY. I hope this clarifies the point. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

According to the Refectix specs the air space doesn't add a little to the R value , it adds almost all . Refectix by it self has and R value of 1.1 .not 12+. It seems that the most benefit is it's reflective quality . The greatest benefit comes when used in combination with other insulating materials to attain both reflective and conductive barriers . It works well with air spaces also , but only if the air space is 100% maintained throughout and sealed , which would be very difficult at best in an Airstream wall. As far as the reflective qualities , I fail to see the benefit in an Airstream wall application as there are already two reflective surfaces , inner and outer skins , that are built in. The floor and windows would be a good use.
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Old 03-06-2010, 10:09 PM   #124
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I'm by no means an expert, but based on my layperson's understanding, the spray foams have evolved considerably since the 1960s. And as an experiment, there is a measure of risk involved. For me, keeping the coach warm or cool is important... but reducing ambient noise is also a major consideration. So, from my perspective, we found a product that's environmentally friendly, works at least as well as standard insulation and will make the interior of the Overlander a bit quieter.
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Old 03-06-2010, 10:25 PM   #125
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I'm by no means an expert, but based on my layperson's understanding, the spray foams have evolved considerably since the 1960s. And as an experiment, there is a measure of risk involved. For me, keeping the coach warm or cool is important... but reducing ambient noise is also a major consideration. So, from my perspective, we found a product that's environmentally friendly, works at least as well as standard insulation and will make the interior of the Overlander a bit quieter.
You can have the interior, "super" quiet.

Easy to do.

And real cheap.

It's called ear muffs or and/or ear plugs.

Some of the posts today, need just a tad of humor tossed in the pot, before we all call it a good night.

Andy
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Old 03-06-2010, 10:46 PM   #126
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I'm by no means an expert, but based on my layperson's understanding, the spray foams have evolved considerably since the 1960s. And as an experiment, there is a measure of risk involved. For me, keeping the coach warm or cool is important... but reducing ambient noise is also a major consideration. So, from my perspective, we found a product that's environmentally friendly, works at least as well as standard insulation and will make the interior of the Overlander a bit quieter.
If I ever gut my coach I would do exactly as you propose . Spray foams have evolved grreatly , but even if they haven't it would still work. I have a 60's Avion with spay foam insulation and after over 40 years of use the spay foam is 100% intact , no dust , no crumble . BTW , it's used in kayaks and boats all the time , talk about flex . Good luck
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