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Old 01-28-2010, 07:30 PM   #99
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I have the same experience as Silvewannbe and Leefields . The foam insulation in my 68 Avion TC is 100% intact .
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:08 AM   #100
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And the spray foam technology has advanced considerably since the 60s. The stuff we used is very environmentally friendly.
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Old 02-22-2010, 07:41 AM   #101
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Avion's use of foam insulation has been brought up several times in this thread and it seems no one wants to talk about that.... Avion's are insulated good and quiet inside. Is there any problems with their use of their foam?
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:07 AM   #102
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If Spray foam is no good, What Type is?

Rockwool? Mineral wool? I used to own a stainless business and we always used a Mineral wool as it had a free chloride content of less than 25 ppm...and would therefore not affect the stainless long term. Not real familiar with aluminum...

I am about to do a reno so any advice would be appreciated.

Keith
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:00 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by StingrayL82 View Post
Streamline started using their Insul-XL aerospace urethane spray foam in 1968; our 1968 29' Empress had it. When I took the interior walls off in 2003, I was surprised to find it, because the brochure I had didn't mention it, but the 1969 brochure does. The foam was perfectly intact. There was actually about 1/4" of space between the inner wall and the insulation. I can tell you that the Empress was always warmer than our Sovereign has ever been.

Would the reason that spray foam insulation wouldn't work in the Airstream be because of its semi-monocoque construction?


That's my suspicion. Streamline and Avion had the best frames (triple 5" or 6" mains); and, along with Silver Streak a full 6" of insulation and dead air space under the floor. Complete double shell on all three if I remember correctly, where the floor is not a structural member (only indirectly); none of this "belly pan" business (why A/S needs to get back to roots of light weight and best aero, IMO; make that design work 'cause then the trade-off doesn't hurt so much).

This is a great thread, keep it coming!
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Old 02-25-2010, 01:04 PM   #104
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We're going to find out if spray foam works. One of the appeals (for me) in using the medium density foam was noise reduction. I think the inside of the coach will be a little more quiet... which I prefer for sleepy time. I'm with Nax on the belly pan thing.

As for the foam we used, I posted the manufacturer and the technical specs. Of course, we won't really have anything major to report until we've used the coach for a few years.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:00 PM   #105
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foam it up! I wanna see pics!
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Old 02-26-2010, 08:43 PM   #106
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Was reading some more yesterday on AVION and found this (practice prior to closed cell polyurethane):


". . The inside of the outer skin is sprayed with a rubber coat covering all seams and rivets to prevent water penetration. The spray also acts as a mastic for applying blankets of 1.25" plastic treated Fiberglas insulation. Next, an inner skin of aluminum is riveted to the rib framework leaving ample air space between the insulation and inner skin. This air space prevents any inside condensation.


In reference to the overall insulation, it appears that, then and later, AVION insulated the shell above the floor. The floor was two panels of wood with a substantial "sandwich filling" of Styrofoam. I have read that when these trailers leak (badly installed awning upper mounts) that water does get to the floor. There is at least one thread/resto blog entry out there showing how to sister-in a repair (shell off ain't gonna be happen'in). How the tanks were insulated and outer skin done -- the interplay -- isn't as clear to me though drawings make it appear straightforward.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf The Story of Quality 1969.pdf (1.51 MB, 80 views)
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Old 02-26-2010, 09:01 PM   #107
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Yah, Hampstead, we WILL need pics. Be sure to get the Al Quaeda hospital gown pictured in the water treatment/filter thread on first. In camo, as befits your profile pic . . . .
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Old 03-03-2010, 07:20 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by REDNAX View Post
Was reading some more yesterday on AVION and found this (practice prior to closed cell polyurethane):


". . The inside of the outer skin is sprayed with a rubber coat covering all seams and rivets to prevent water penetration. The spray also acts as a mastic for applying blankets of 1.25" plastic treated Fiberglas insulation. Next, an inner skin of aluminum is riveted to the rib framework leaving ample air space between the insulation and inner skin. This air space prevents any inside condensation.


In reference to the overall insulation, it appears that, then and later, AVION insulated the shell above the floor. The floor was two panels of wood with a substantial "sandwich filling" of Styrofoam. I have read that when these trailers leak (badly installed awning upper mounts) that water does get to the floor. There is at least one thread/resto blog entry out there showing how to sister-in a repair (shell off ain't gonna be happen'in). How the tanks were insulated and outer skin done -- the interplay -- isn't as clear to me though drawings make it appear straightforward.
Our 73 Avion has spray foam in the walls and a sandwich insulated floor and yes it leaks just like our 76 Sov. However, since the wood floor and the structural ribs attach directly to the frame floor replacement/repair can be performed shell-on. Removing interior components for access is still a pain though.

The tanks sit below the sandwich floor and are not insulated.

Kevin
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:36 PM   #109
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The tanks sit below the sandwich floor and are not insulated.

Thanks. That's what wasn't clear.

(Are there any pics here or elsewhere of that '73? I'd really like to have a '72 Avion, but am growing more fond of '73-'76).
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Old 03-04-2010, 05:05 AM   #110
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The tanks sit below the sandwich floor and are not insulated.

Thanks. That's what wasn't clear.

(Are there any pics here or elsewhere of that '73? I'd really like to have a '72 Avion, but am growing more fond of '73-'76).
What is clear is that this is your 1000th post on the Airforums!

Which has now been documented for posterity. Congrats.
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Old 03-04-2010, 06:00 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
We're going to find out if spray foam works. One of the appeals (for me) in using the medium density foam was noise reduction. I think the inside of the coach will be a little more quiet... which I prefer for sleepy time. I'm with Nax on the belly pan thing.

As for the foam we used, I posted the manufacturer and the technical specs. Of course, we won't really have anything major to report until we've used the coach for a few years.
Hi hampstead38;
I hate to beat posts with hundreds of different opinions. What I like to tell you is this; I have worked over 40 years with mix and pour closed cell urethane foam, otherwise known as rigid closed cell foam. The rule #1 is that it should be installed only in places which will not flex any more than temperature related expansion and contraction. Seven and even 10 points in R value does not justify the expense. The walls are 2" inside and you need room for wiring and other stuff. Secondly, Airstream flexes under towing condition. Hence this is why it is riveted and not welded. Welds would crack and the more times you weld aluminum the more brittle it becomes. With time as the trailer flexes foam will fatigue and fragment creating a microscopic dust which is extremely hazardous to your health.
This dust will eventually find a way into the interior where it will be carried by moving air with help of your furnace, AC or fan. While the rigid foam has insulating quality it is mainly used as structural component by it's rigid quality pending it's weight per cubic foot. The heavier it is, the more rigid it is. The lighter weights are used as flotation in boats and in many structural components.

My question is this; Why would anyone go through the expense and effort to install a rigid foam in the Airstream? Bubble foils are easy to install and are higher in R factor. If you spend equal amount of money as you spend on contract of installing a rigid foam, you can almost buy aircraft quality insulation. Even the inexpensive bubble foils in 1/2" thickness can give 12+ R factor if properly installed. I am truly sorry for getting involved in this post again as I have already voiced my opinion based on my experience with rigid foam in Airstream. I did not intended to fire up anyone therefore I will refrain from any further arguments. My point is; Before jumping into something with both feet, do your research. With the wealth of information available on the INTERNET which is mind boggling and it is free. I hate to see mistakes being made while good sources of information are available. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 03-04-2010, 07:58 AM   #112
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Boatdoc
Could you please give us the name and type insulation that yields an R factor of 12+ in only 1/2" thickness ? Thanks
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