MCS and gutting Airstream, need help! :)

[pilgrimsouth]

We have a 66 Globetrotter we are going to make environmentally safe for me. We are needing to gut it down to the studs and remove all the insulation. Can the end walls and end wall/bathroom (rear) be taken out carefully somehow and sealed (we have a special sealer) and put back in? Or can we replace each end wall with something that is ok for me? We have to take out the insulation and replace it and we have to get rid of the Airstream smell. Instead of taking out the walls we have thought of covering the plastic end caps and walls with Denny Foil to seal everything in, but it would look nicer if we could just take it all out, clean it up, put new insulation in and seal everything on both sides and put it all back.

I realize fixing an Airstream for people like me with MCS if far different from renovating one for travel.

We would appreciate any instructions on the "how to's" of our steps that anyone would offer. Thanks

[Aerowood]

Yes it is possible but a lot of work. The trailer can be stripped down to the shell and fiberglass removed and replaced with foil type insulation but the glass is also under the floorboards and to remove it completely requires removal of the floor which requires the removal of the shell.

[Tom Nugler]

Welcome to the Forum.
I an assuming that you bought a vintage unit because of the lack of foam and plastics used in that era when compared to the newer units.
That being said, the front interior end cap is the largest chunk of plastic to be found. I would guess that after 42 years it’s probably done out-gassing by now. The same would hold true for the fiberglass rear bath fixtures.
It’s been found that most of the "airstream smell" is from moisture, mold, mildew and the various critters that have taken up residence over the years. Make sure the shell is leak-free.
The interior wall panels un-rivet fairly easily. Some people have replaced them with unfinished aluminum sheet for the more modern look. End caps could be a problem though. A thorough cleaning after removing the interior should solve most odor problems. Note: The original floor tile may contain asbestos. Mine came up relatively intact as the mastic had dried out.
Not knowing your level of sensitivity, it will interesting to see what you choose for interior furnishings. Metal pieces or natural wood? Once again the original cabinets and couches in mine are hardwood, screwed together with a minimum of glue. Could your old ones, if you have them, be sealed?
If you decide to go ahead with your project keep us posted. We love pictures.

Hope you find this helpful.
Tom.

[Tom Nugler]

Oops. Forgot to mention the Search button on the top blue bar.
Sometimes it may be a bit cumbersome and return results with little to do with your query. It will provide hours of reading on every topic concerning repairs and remodeling. Bet you find info by someone who’s done it, doing it or planning it.

Tom.

[65CV]

PilgrimSouth-

Let me try this from a chemist's point of view, but with less Airstream experience than others like Aerowood. I'll try to give you some perspective and some of the best links I've found here. You'll find this site to be a tremendous but overwhelming source of information.

Your budgetary constraints and plans for use of the trailer -- specifically your travel plans -- would help those looking to reply.

My understanding of MCS is that organic chemicals and solvents are the worst problems, followed closely by smoke and the like. The term organic chemicals is used here in the context of carbon-based chemistry, rather than the pesticide-free context.

Given that, I hope your floor is solid and mildew-free. If not, it may be part of the "airstream smell". Finding a solid replacement without chemicals will be a challenge. If you don't plan to move the trailer, you can certainly use solid wood planks but have the challenge of sealing them with non-toxic chemicals. Maybe the "old house" method of hemp rope stuffed between panels would work. Consider cork or marmoleum floors to cover the base. If you plan to travel, you need a solid structural replacement for the plywood. Do not underestimate the critical structural role of the floor in the design. The floor will be difficult to replace with a chemical-free solution. If you want to see what is involved in replacing a floor, start with http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...mbi-17925.html

You certainly can pull the interior skins off the trailer. They are much easier to clean and remove years of tobacco smoke when removed. Put them on a flat deck and sand the heck out of the surfaces. You can even polish them like http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...ent-38289.html . Once cleaned, they can oxidize naturally and need no further treatment.

Panels are not hard to reproduce with new aluminum, consider Airparts Inc. Homepage for replacement. You can even replace the fiberglass domes with aluminum. I think Overlander62 (Frank) did this at Anna Lumanum Be sure to give him Karma if you like his ideas.


Given your MCS sensitivity, fiberglass is probably best for insulation. The foil insulation method pionered by malconium -- see http://www.airforums.com/forums/f46/...cks-30196.htmlat uses a polymer bubble foam with Styrofoam offsets using polyurethane or equivalent adhesive. It is my choice and it appears to be the best in thermal performance, but I wouldn't recommend it for your use. As Aerowood noted above, insulation is present in the walls of the trailer and below the floor. Make sure you remove all the old insulation -- hopefully it is the only source of smell.

By now, I assume you have found sources for upholstery. I'd be curious to see what you use for comfort cushioning.

Best of luck,

John

[Zeppelinium]

It's also possible to totally replace or cover the plastic/fiberglass end caps with aluminum. At least four members have done this in the last year and Aerowood is about to do his.



Zep

[pilgrimsouth]

Originally Posted by Aerowood

Yes it is possible but a lot of work. The trailer can be stripped down to the shell and fiberglass removed and replaced with foil type insulation but the glass is also under the floorboards and to remove it completely requires removal of the floor which requires the removal of the shell.

Thanks, we have already figured out that we need to replace the floor, it does hold the smell and is rotted in a few places. Will mention why we are taking the skins out when I reply to another post. We would love step by step instructions from someone who has already removed the inside skins including the ends!!

[pilgrimsouth]

You are right! I could not even go in a new Airstream without it making me very ill! We did 2 other Airstreams for me years ago and Airstream suggested buying one older than the 80's.

That being said, the front interior end cap is the largest chunk of plastic to be found. I would guess that after 42 years it’s probably done out-gassing by now. The same would hold true for the fiberglass rear bath fixtures.

Well, not really, what happens is that after all these years the plastic and wood has absorbed all the smells & chemicals that have been inside the trailer. We either have replace it or take it out and seal both sides and put it back.

It’s been found that most of the "airstream smell" is from moisture, mold, mildew and the various critters that have taken up residence over the years. Make sure the shell is leak-free.

The smell we have it typical of Airstream so I am guessing its the actual plastic after absorbing the tank chemicals etc. We had 2 other Airstreams we redid for me 15 years ago (sold one, lost on in a flood) and we never did get rid of the smell, but we didn't take the inside skins out.
The interior wall panels un-rivet fairly easily. Some people have replaced them with unfinished aluminum sheet for the more modern look. End caps could be a problem though. A thorough cleaning after removing the interior should solve most odor problems. Note: The original floor tile may contain asbestos. Mine came up relatively intact as the mastic had dried out.
We want to seal the inside skins, inside and out. The end caps are what we think will probably break up when we take them out and have to do something in place of them probably. We won't be using the sink and toilet anyway, will use permanent regular fixtures. It will stay stationary, but for a few moves to new locations. It will be hooked up to the utilities like a regular house, no 12 volt, regular water lines, new elec 110 wiring etc. Its only going to have a bathroom and bedroom. Someone else already took up the floor.

Not knowing your level of sensitivity, it will interesting to see what you choose for interior furnishings. Metal pieces or natural wood? Once again the original cabinets and couches in mine are hardwood, screwed together with a minimum of glue. Could your old ones, if you have them, be sealed?
If you decide to go ahead with your project keep us posted. We love pictures.

Very sensitive, I am called a Universal Reactor. We can use metal and wood, just so we seal them on both sides. We do have some of the original insides, i.e. the bathroom wood entrance walls with closets, kitchen cupboards etc. We can seal them and still use them if we want. You are VERY helpful! We appreicate it!!

[pilgrimsouth]

Originally Posted by Zeppelinium

It's also possible to totally replace or cover the plastic/fiberglass end caps with aluminum. At least four members have done this in the last year and Aerowood is about to do his.

Attachment 62572

Zep

Thanks for the great pictures!!!

[utee94]

Originally Posted by pilgrimsouth

You are right! I could not even go in a new Airstream without it making me very ill! We did 2 other Airstreams for me years ago and Airstream suggested buying one older than the 80's. ....

Very sensitive, I am called a Universal Reactor. We can use metal and wood, just so we seal them on both sides. We do have some of the original insides, i.e. the bathroom wood entrance walls with closets, kitchen cupboards etc. We can seal them and still use them if we want. You are VERY helpful! We appreicate it!!

You've come to the right place to get the information you need. As you've already found, the people around here are extremely helpful, and very nice as well.

Out of curiosity, what product can you use to seal the various surfaces so that they are safe and non-reactive for you?

[pilgrimsouth]

Originally Posted by 65CV

PilgrimSouth-

Let me try this from a chemist's point of view, but with less Airstream experience than others like Aerowood. I'll try to give you some perspective and some of the best links I've found here. You'll find this site to be a tremendous but overwhelming source of information.

Your budgetary constraints and plans for use of the trailer -- specifically your travel plans -- would help those looking to reply.

Very limited budget, like a thin shoe string

My understanding of MCS is that organic chemicals and solvents are the worst problems, followed closely by smoke and the like. The term organic chemicals is used here in the context of carbon-based chemistry, rather than the pesticide-free context.

Yes, your right, organic chemicals are bad, but for me and many others so are most everything man made. Everyone is different. I have to just get a sample of something and sit in a small room with it to see if I do ok with it.

Given that, I hope your floor is solid and mildew-free. If not, it may be part of the "airstream smell". Finding a solid replacement without chemicals will be a challenge. If you don't plan to move the trailer, you can certainly use solid wood planks but have the challenge of sealing them with non-toxic chemicals. Maybe the "old house" method of hemp rope stuffed between panels would work. Consider cork or marmoleum floors to cover the base.

We do have several choices, battle ship linoleum, solid wood floor etc. if they are sealed. They make special sealers for people like me.

If you plan to travel, you need a solid structural replacement for the plywood. Do not underestimate the critical structural role of the floor in the design. The floor will be difficult to replace with a chemical-free solution. If you want to see what is involved in replacing a floor, start with http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...mbi-17925.html

Thanks, this will help my husband a lot!

You certainly can pull the interior skins off the trailer. They are much easier to clean and remove years of tobacco smoke when removed. Put them on a flat deck and sand the heck out of the surfaces. You can even polish them like http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...ent-38289.html . Once cleaned, they can oxidize naturally and need no further treatment.

Is there anywhere with instructions on how to actually do this and also deal with the end skins?

Panels are not hard to reproduce with new aluminum, consider Airparts Inc. Homepage for replacement. You can even replace the fiberglass domes with aluminum. I think Overlander62 (Frank) did this at Anna Lumanum Be sure to give him Karma if you like his ideas.
Given your MCS sensitivity, fiberglass is probably best for insulation. The foil insulation method pionered by malconium -- see http://www.airforums.com/forums/f46/...cks-30196.htmlat uses a polymer bubble foam with Styrofoam offsets using polyurethane or equivalent adhesive. It is my choice and it appears to be the best in thermal performance, but I wouldn't recommend it for your use. As Aerowood noted above, insulation is present in the walls of the trailer and below the floor. Make sure you remove all the old insulation -- hopefully it is the only source of smell.

We actually have something called Denny Foil that I do very well with. We are thinking of using it for insulation and have even thought of using it to replace the inside skin in the dome area. But, it doesn't do anything structurally since its a foil. Its double sided aluminum foil with paper in the middle, but does form to whatever shape you want. You use aluminum tape with it. MCS people have used it for years for lots of things. Would it be a problem structurally if we replaced the domes with it? We could cover it with fabric to protect it somewhat. We are not traveling with our trailer, using it for my bedroom and bathroom on our land. We may move it from time to time to new locations but that's all.

By now, I assume you have found sources for upholstery. I'd be curious to see what you use for comfort cushioning.

Can't use upholstery. Solid wood (even though hard) is my best friend when sealed. For comfort I can have organic feather pillows though.

Best of luck,

John

I have posted my reply above within your quotes, thanks so much for the help!

[pilgrimsouth]

Originally Posted by utee94

You've come to the right place to get the information you need. As you've already found, the people around here are extremely helpful, and very nice as well.

Out of curiosity, what product can you use to seal the various surfaces so that they are safe and non-reactive for you?

There are several...AFM Products makes paints and sealers for sensitive people. I do ok with some and not ok with others. We used a sealer years ago from Pace Chem that was wonderful but they are out of business. We are currently looking for another one. I have to ask my mcs friends for recommendations for more.

[pilgrimsouth]

Originally Posted by pilgrimsouth

Thanks for the great pictures!!!

My guess is that it would be too expensive for us to put new aluminum in it. Not sure I could have it either. Toying with the idea of using Denny Foil to cover then studs. Its a paper and foil insullation but with just me in it, I wouldn't damage it much and could repair anything with aluminum tape. Just wonder if it would be ok structurally to be without its inside skins on the ends. Anyone know?

[Zeppelinium]

Originally Posted by pilgrimsouth

My guess is that it would be too expensive for us to put new aluminum in it. Not sure I could have it either.

Materials are less than $100 (one 4x8 sheet of aluminum if you cut it accurately), but it's a complicated job. The job is a lot easier if you retain the inner plastic end cap and attach the tapered panels to it, using it as a form. 62Overlander did it that way, and I think C_Ferguson also.

Originally Posted by pilgrimsouth

Toying with the idea of using Denny Foil to cover then studs. Its a paper and foil insullation but with just me in it, I wouldn't damage it much and could repair anything with aluminum tape. Just wonder if it would be ok structurally to be without its inside skins on the ends. Anyone know?

The inner dome is not attached to the outer dome, except at the rib where the straight shell meets the end caps. What's more, the plastic inside end caps are not very rigid--I don't think they provide significant strutural strength and you can do without them.

On the other hand, the interior skins, riveted to the ribs, do provide added structural stiffness. Not half, by any means, but it's significant. I don't think you'd want to routinely tow an Airstream without interior skins. The exception would be a gutted Airstream--very light, so you wouldn't need the added strength from the interior skin. A few members have used their gutted Airstreams as aluminum "tents" and have not reported any trouble.

Zep

[pilgrimsouth]

Originally Posted by Zeppelinium

The inner dome is not attached to the outer dome, except at the rib where the straight shell meets the end caps. What's more, the plastic inside end caps are not very rigid--I don't think they provide significant strutural strength and you can do without them.

On the other hand, the interior skins, riveted to the ribs, do provide added structural stiffness. Not half, by any means, but it's significant. I don't think you'd want to routinely tow an Airstream without interior skins. The exception would be a gutted Airstream--very light, so you wouldn't need the added strength from the interior skin. A few members have used their gutted Airstreams as aluminum "tents" and have not reported any trouble.

Zep

Thanks for the info. We would put the inner skins all back in, except for the two end dome pieces (that would include the bathroom) after replacing the insulation. So it seems (if it wouldn't hurt anything structurally) it might be possible to just cover the dome area's with the Denny Foil or even make something like a paper mache dome ourselves. I know it sounds funny but with MCS you have to rig with the materials that your body does well with, even if its something others wouldn't think of using. Right now I have Denny Foil in place of carpet over the plywood sub floor in my bedroom. I have laid a beautiful quilt over it for a little protection and it is working great! Doesn't make me sick and seals the plywood.

Is there a link for anywhere to know what the order of steps would be and the how to's to totally gut our Airstream down to the studs? It sounds like drilling out the rivets of the inside skins and removing them is first, then the plywood floor? Everything else is already out. We also want to remove all the tanks. I guess you would say we want to go beyond just gutting and strip it down to just the outside shell. Thanks

[Zeppelinium]

Originally Posted by pilgrimsouth

...Is there a link for anywhere to know what the order of steps would be and the how to's to totally gut our Airstream down to the studs? It sounds like drilling out the rivets of the inside skins and removing them is first, then the plywood floor? Everything else is already out. We also want to remove all the tanks. I guess you would say we want to go beyond just gutting and strip it down to just the outside shell. Thanks

I don't think anyone has posted a checklist on a method for orderly gutting an Airstream. Once all the cabinetry is out, just start taking skins out by drilling out the pop rivets with a 1/8" bit (or #30 to be precise, which is slightly larger). Getting the center skin along the ceiling out is a little tricky. If you're going to remove all the skins anyway, you can remove one of the rails that run along the edge of this skin after you take down the lower skins--makes it much easier.

I replaced my plastic end caps completely. You can see details on this thread, starting at post #64 on page 5.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f421...ion-37609.html
I don't recommend this method, way too complicated and required a tool to slightly shrink the edges of the panels. It is, however, a way to completely replace the plastic and get a very strong dome at the same time. You can use this example as an idea of how to cut panels to fit. 62Overlander used one additional panel on each side, I believe, and got a nice fit without having to curve the edges.

Zep

[monocoque]

Originally Posted by Zeppelinium

I replaced my plastic end caps completely. You can see details on this thread, starting at post #64 on page 5.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f421...ion-37609.html
I don't recommend this method, way too complicated and required a tool to slightly shrink the edges of the panels. It is, however, a way to completely replace the plastic and get a very strong dome at the same time. You can use this example as an idea of how to cut panels to fit. 62Overlander used one additional panel on each side, I believe, and got a nice fit without having to curve the edges.

Zep

Zep, thanks for a nice summery of replacing end caps and the relevant links. I'm considering doing this too and the hints and pointers here is most helpful.

[Zeppelinium]

Originally Posted by pilgrimsouth

... Everything else is already out. We also want to remove all the tanks. ...

BTW, save the tanks--others might be able to use them if they are in good shape.

I forgot to remark on removing the flooring. The shell is tied tightly to the outriggers through the flooring, so you have to remove all the bolts in the "C" channel. If you try to take the floor out one sheet at a time, you'll find that the shell is extremely stiff--you can take out all the bolts forward of the wheel wells and still only move the shell about 1/8"! At least that was my experience with my '77 Safari. You'll also have to remove quite a few rivets from the steel holdown plates fore and aft (I believe your '66 has these). I inadvertently left one partially drilled out rivet in place and couldnt figure out for hours why I couldn't budge the shell. One rivet!

Zep

[pilgrimsouth]

Originally Posted by Zeppelinium

BTW, save the tanks--others might be able to use them if they are in good shape.

I forgot to remark on removing the flooring. The shell is tied tightly to the outriggers through the flooring, so you have to remove all the bolts in the "C" channel. If you try to take the floor out one sheet at a time, you'll find that the shell is extremely stiff--you can take out all the bolts forward of the wheel wells and still only move the shell about 1/8"! At least that was my experience with my '77 Safari. You'll also have to remove quite a few rivets from the steel holdown plates fore and aft (I believe your '66 has these). I inadvertently left one partially drilled out rivet in place and couldnt figure out for hours why I couldn't budge the shell. One rivet!

Zep

Well, this is where you will see our ignorance at pure Airstream terms

We really want to do this right so want to ask the following questions:

1. By "shell" are you meaning what we are calling outside skin?

2. What are "outriggers" and what do they do and where are they?

3. What is the C Channel and where is it?

4. Is there some sort of schematic for an Airstream?

5. What does that mean that the shell is stiff? And, that it will only move 1/8"? Are you meaning that if all the bolts were taken out forward of the wheel well that the Airstream shell would still stay in place but for a 1/8" shift?

Please forgive our total ignorance with this, we did not take our other two Airstream's (15 years ago-and no longer have them) down to the studs or take out the bathroom. This is going to be another world from what we did before, but it will be much healthier when we are finished. We hope to begin the project in the next few weeks after we get settled a bit from our recent move. We want to have as clear of an understanding of what to do "before" we start. We appreciate all the help and welcome more!!!

[pilgrimsouth]

Originally Posted by Zeppelinium

BTW, save the tanks--others might be able to use them if they are in good shape.

I forgot to remark on removing the flooring......

Zep

I just realized you were from Colorado! We just moved from Colorado Springs to Greenville, SC!!!!