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Old 03-06-2011, 06:11 AM   #85
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Urethane foam out gassing;
Out gassing is only one problem with Urethane foam in a Airstream. Since it takes a chemical reaction of two components, it out gasses heavily during set up. However, not all gas escapes during set up and it continues to do so for ever as bubbles break down with time.

Second issue; Foam during set up process creates a considerable amount of heat which is transfered into aluminum skin. Aluminum having a high rate of thermal expansion will bubble out, and it may not return back to original shape. In areas where foam gets trapped in chamber without expansion relief, it will bulge out your walls.

Third issue;
True Urethane Foam comes in different density weight per cubic foot. Two pound density is quite fragile and it deteriorates quicker than four pounds density. With four pound you are doubling up the total weight. There is no way to stop the flexing in Airstream trailer. With time, as the trailer flexes the foam will start to fragment in areas of most flex. As the fragmentation takes place very minute particles go airborne to be distributed by your furnace or any other source of air movement. As the bubbles continue to break down the gassing out continues since the gas is trapped inside the bubbles. In essence Rigid Urethane foam is best used in stationary chambers where a movement is not an issue. IMHO you are making a mistake of your life. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:51 PM   #86
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Foam

This sounds like the this stuff
16 LB Density Urethane Foam Common Applications: This 16LB density foam is essentially as hard as a rock, you would need a hammer in order to make any dents in this product. Can be used for sculpting or the casting of objects that require superior toughness and strength. More questions? [Try our Foam FAQ.]
Cat No.Kit Size(net weight)Approx. CoveragePriceFOAM-16044 LB Kit1/4 Cubic Foot$20.50FOAM-161616 LB Kit1 Cubic Feet$62.00FOAM-168080 LB Kit5 Cubic Feet$244.005 or more kits of the FOAM-1680$232.00 / KitProduct Information:
Free Rise Density: 16.0 lbs cubic ft.
Expansion Rate: Approx. 4x Liquid Volume
Buoyancy (flotation): 46 LBs per Cubic Ft.

*Physical Properties:
Parallel Compressive Strength: 580 psi
Tensile Strength: 450 psi
Shear Strength: 230 psi
Flexural Strength: 750 psi

The problem with this foam is the high curing temp. The better choice which is supposed to be green and cures cold is.
  • <LI class=style6>2 Formulas - Fast Rise E-84 Fire-Rated Surface Spray and Slow Rise, Low-Pressure Cavity Fill Formula <LI class=style6>Closed Cell Polyurethane Foam Insulation - Expands 8 to 1 for better control and less waste. <LI class=style6>R-7 Per Inch - Low perm rating makes it practically waterproof <LI class=style6>Easy to use, portable and recyclable - Completely self-contained kits. No power supply or additional machinery required! <LI class=style6>Toll-Free Technical Support - 100% guarantee against defect
  • Air Seals, insulates, soundproofs, water resistant, 1000's of uses!
E-84 Fire Rated Polyurethane Foam Insulation Kits Tiger Foam™ is a FEMA and HOMELAND SECURITY registered supplier of Hurricane Relief and Rebuild Materials! If you are a registered contractor with FEMA or their SUBS INQUIRE HERE

Tiger Foam Insulation™ has NEVER contained Octa or Penta BDE's or VOCs, CFCs or Formaldehyde.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatdoc View Post
Hi rangebowdrie;
Yes, it would blow your mind of how many different products there are in the foam specialty market. In my ha'y days, I used to drive a Tunnel Hull race boat for Sunoco Fuels [the only Sunoco sponsored boat] APBA 841. Prior to introduction of Safety Capsules, high speed related accidents used to end up in serious injury or death, as the very light and fragile hulls came apart. Sunoco, being concerned about my safety have sent a prominent US aircraft development company to make my boat so called "bullet proof". Two men came in large sophisticated trailer conversion and went to work with 1/2 lbs weight per cubic foot of installed foam. Each tunnel hull was blocked off with special heat shrunk film and 1" hole was drilled at each tunnel hull bow. Boat was hung with bow up at 45 degree and foam was poured in. Excess foam discharge hose was affixed to the pour holes so that the expanding foam would not come in contact with outside gel coat. Apparently there was no solution to clean that excess. Cockpit was then bagged for vacuum forming. Three hours later one man has emerged from a trailer with a 20 lbs mull and piece of plastic in hand. One man held the piece of plastic against the foam filled hull, the other swung the mull as hard as he could while my heart was at my throat. The mull bounced back spinning the man around. Please feel secure now, he said. They had me sign agreement not to allow anyone to have a piece of it, so that it cannot be tested for chemical properties.
All expanded excess foam was collected by them and loaded into their trailer. Not a scrap was left to be found. When I quit racing some years later the boat was purchased back by the company who poured the foam for destruction. There is your sign in today's technology. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:09 PM   #87
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Insulation

Hummmmm Very interesting never head of the avions being big lemons because of insulation failure or rotting.
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Originally Posted by Melody Ranch View Post
I still believe in spray foam insulation....the correct kind.

Its been used, its effective, its light weight, it stays put, etc, etc.

http://avion.gradeless.com/1972Avion/1972_AVION_12.jpg
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Old 03-07-2011, 01:56 PM   #88
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Hi filterman;
Why would anyone want to put 16 lbs density foam in a Airstream? How can you apply it on vertical surface? Even if one could apply 1" thick layer can you tell us how much weight it would add in 26' trailer at 16lbs per cubic foot? Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:11 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatdoc View Post
Hi filterman;
Why would anyone want to put 16 lbs density foam in a Airstream? How can you apply it on vertical surface? Even if one could apply 1" thick layer can you tell us how much weight it would add in 26' trailer at 16lbs per cubic foot? Thanks, "Boatdoc"
I think Filterman was pointing to the Tiger Foam , which according to their specs is 1.75 lb density. The other is structural foam , whole other animal.

I can attest to my 40 year old Avion TC foam insulation holding up just fine with no distortion in the aluminum skin so someone got it right a long time ago.

As an aside , I bet the saturated fiberglass in the belly pan weighs more than 16 lbs a cubic ft.
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:36 PM   #90
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boatdoc what I meant about the 16lb foam was that this is probably what was used in your boat. on the weight lets say on a 31' by 8' wide we got 240sf rounding down for the curved edges at one inch that would take 20cf of foam at 1.75lbs per cube thats about 36lb so double it for two inches to 74lb of foam to do the bottom. Check my math I did this in my head.The only problem I see is the foam going to crack or will it hold . I would take my chances with foaming the bottom maybe go with a little mor density like one step up but not too stiff as it would get heavier and then have less flex. To do the whole trailer I would guess to be about 300lbs. SO HERE IS MY FINAL ANALYSIS. THE ONLY INHERENT RISK IS WILL THE FOAM HOLD UP AND DO YOU WANT THE ADDED WEIGHT. Ticki is your avion foamed under the floor and if so how does it look. Gotta go seal some windows (vista on my rig) Thanks all
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:57 AM   #91
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Hi filterman;
Sorry, I was under impression that you were promoting the use of 16 lbs density.
I was told that the foam used in my Race Boat weighted 2.5 lbs per cub/ft, but it was crossed linked with undisclosed but very expensive component.

All and all I do not see how you can install a pour foam on a vertical surface. It would have to be sprayed and that is not a DIY job. Constant moisture will eventually penetrate the surface with time. In addition, IMHO 2 lbs density foam is much too fragile to be installed under flexing condition. Zep has done plenty of extensive research on this subject, pointing the way to what works and does not. I respect his findings. One should also consider the cost vs the value in effectiveness. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 03-08-2011, 09:21 AM   #92
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A point to remember - "closed cell" is a general term as there is still 3-7% "open cell" foam bubble structures that can hold liquid moisture - and then those flaws will work over time into the larger volume.

Just pointing to SOB trailer that used a spray foam is like saying putting wide tires on a Pinto will make it handle like a Mustang!

Inviting bids from chemical suppliers with exacting material property requests, doing trials with various components proportions, having applicator contractors on hand with a performance clause in their contracts... Then with a specific insulating foam having the trailer construction details modified to accommodate the product, not forgetting they are using all-new materials, supplied to design specification and assembled with proper material cleanliness and primers/bonding agents... the list goes on and on...

If Line-X or Rhino-Liner could add 90% by volume a silica micro-sphere or some other inert insulation additive just having that sprayed in from window height up might be a real sweet application.
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:20 AM   #93
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Filterman , the floor in the Avions is a sandwich , 3/8 ply , 1" foam , and 3/8 ply . The walls and roof are sprayed on . I see no reason that spray foam would not adhere to the underside of a plywood floor .

Boatdock , I don't think anyone is proposing trying to fill the walls with foam while the interior walls are in place , I believe that would be a big problem . The application would be sprayed in which works fine for vertical walls and ceilings .

Wabbeteer , I don't get your analogy between an SOB and an Airstream . The comparison given was between an Airstream and an Avion which have the same riveted aluminum construction .

I find the nay sayers very puzzling . Why question whether something can or should be done when it has already been done successfully many years ago . Which product to use does merit discussion .
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:59 PM   #94
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You're entirely welcome to nurse puzzlement quietly of this advice those long experienced Airstream owners are discouraging the use of foam.

I've seen a new 60's vintage owner reduced to near-tears while showing a jumble of shattered foam stained by rust where the frame iron had simply vanished. There are a finite number of vintage Airstreams and their expected long life means any modifications made may haunt several unsuspecting future owners with a bunch of trouble if care is not taken.

Do you know why POR-15 is so highly recommended? It has a unique property of not being undercut by rust - the rust will not break the bond of the paint and laterally progress and just that would be the case of using foam on/at iron work.

I've seen the Vulkem sealant slathered over the rear end-cap of my 39-year-old trailer hold water like a wineskin - but it held it. Yes, other leaks and benign neglect made that a nonissue but physical properties so well tuned to last nearly 40 years... that is part of what makes an Airstream lasting 60 or 70 years a good start on an even longer life.

Avion is not Airstream even if resembling it in some aspects - thus the Pinto to Mustang analogy. You have no knowledge of the trade-secrets used to mate materials in the Avion, or the processes required to duplicate them but are willing to encourage others to reinvent the wheel. So, yes, you hear nay sayers.
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:09 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wabbiteer View Post
A point to remember - "closed cell" is a general term as there is still 3-7% "open cell" foam bubble structures that can hold liquid moisture - and then those flaws will work over time into the larger volume.

Just pointing to SOB trailer that used a spray foam is like saying putting wide tires on a Pinto will make it handle like a Mustang!

Inviting bids from chemical suppliers with exacting material property requests, doing trials with various components proportions, having applicator contractors on hand with a performance clause in their contracts... Then with a specific insulating foam having the trailer construction details modified to accommodate the product, not forgetting they are using all-new materials, supplied to design specification and assembled with proper material cleanliness and primers/bonding agents... the list goes on and on...

If Line-X or Rhino-Liner could add 90% by volume a silica micro-sphere or some other inert insulation additive just having that sprayed in from window height up might be a real sweet application.
Thank you Wabbiteer. "Boatdoc"
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:00 AM   #96
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So lets pretend there is this airstream

that has been sprayed with foam in 2006 and lets say that money was not an object to the builders, then you would have mobi (here's your pinto looking like a mustang) Mobitat - Total Luxury Mobile Living now lets say I talked to Will at Tiger spray on foam and he verified it was Tiger foam in the mobi (all walls ceiling and undercarriage) and it was 1.7lb closed cell foam which does absorb some water on the surface but does NOT waterlog unless it is submerged for a long time. So coating the frame with POR=15 is recommended before hand. My main concern is sweating and not so much the insulation r value of about 7 per inch. Here are the calculations 600bf of tiger foam is 760.00 (one kit) it would take about four kits (whole rig) to do two inches (r-15) or two kits to do one inch (r-7) About 150lb for one inch and 300lb of added weight for two. If you use foam board the walls will still sweat, if you use the pink crap it will mold and soak water. If you use epoxy paint on the interior you still need insulation. I hate fiberglass and dont like the toxic fumes from foamboard if there is even a small fire can you say poison by the time you wake up if you do. The bubble wrap will not hold into place with aluminum tape been there know that. So what then. Let the walls sweat and put a new floor in every ten years and just brush the corrosion of with a wire brush when you see it. Then there is this stuff II-205 Handi-Foam Commercial Vehicle Spray Foam - Professional Kits - Discount Professional spray foam kits. Handi-Foam Commercial Vehicle Spray Foam was developed specifically for use in a vehicle's undercarriage, engine compartment and frame,it can also help to reinforce the structure! Can you say sagging tail?
I wonder if this company has good insurance so when all the motorhome frames start to rust through they can stay in business. Look I think this can be done just need help figuring it out. Pour foam is out of the question too hot and takes too long to set up for a wall. MOBI is Ohh very cool. This is why I went with a as. HUMMM on a mission... Whats wrong with a avion? I think they are good units. CLASSIC 1987 AVION 34-W TRAVEL TRAILER. Lets solve the problem and figure out which foam to use and in twenty years if my frame rusts so be it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:14 AM   #97
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Hi filterman;
You are absolutely right. It can be done as it was done, if the cost is not of importance. Are you trying to convince yourself and the rest of us that R value of 7 is worth the enormous cost and effort? If you think it is, go for it. Prodex gives you R-14 with 1" air space for 1/10 of the cost and 1/50th in weight. I agree with you that aluminum tape will not always hold up, but 3M has adhesives that will. Adhesion depends on surface cleanliness especially when installing aluminum tape. I do not know what interior wall corrosion you are speaking of. My argosy was made in 1973 and three years ago when I took off the inner walls, the inside was whistle clean. The only corrosion I had was in the contact area of rear steel head plate to aluminum.

It is one thing to be determined to accomplish certain task, but it is another when it comes to a achieving worthwhile gain for the money. Not everyone can afford to play with their money. At times we are determined to do things for ourselves when we can afford to be inventive. Example is my hydraulic leveling system which I am building for my Arg. The difference is that I have materials, machine shop capability and engineering know how. Is it cost effective? No, despite the fact that I have machined my own pistons, made my own lines and have hydraulic pumps. I have engineered it so that the entire system will be enclosed in the belly pan and not be visible when retracted. I do not want scissor jacks hanging from underbelly of my trailer. Some may say that it cannot be done, just watch me. My reason for it, is not to prove a point. After my accident I am finding it difficult to set up screw jacks because of my injuries. I would be ashamed to ask my wife to set up jacks, and that is my reason for doing it. Would such a set up be considered worth while for everyone? No, but it is to me. You then, should proceed with spray foam in your trailer rather than make attempts to convince how such application would benefit everyone. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:02 AM   #98
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hey boatdoc,
I'd be interested to know specifically which 3M adhesives you'd note that would work over the long term for purposes of securing insulation?
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