Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-10-2005, 01:59 PM   #29
4 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 389
spacer

Looks good Malcolm. I went to a Lowes near my home today and looked at materials - I found the insulfoam material you are talking about - they 3/8", 1/2", 1" I believe. I would like to get as much insulating as possible in my trailer as I may spend some cold periods in there.

What about that thin cork underlayment material for the spacer? You could either cover the entire backside (I think it comes in 1/8") and just drill through from the front (assuming you are re-using your interior panels... Contact cement or even spray adhesive would seem to give you enough stick to get it onto the wall, then the rivets would hold it in place. This would also seem to add a bit more insulation, as well as deaden the sound some - though for me sound isn't an issue, I "lived" in a dodge caravan last summer working on a house renovation in Catskill, NY, and I loved it when it rained, it was like sleeping in a drum, insect sounds too, cacophony!

if you stuck the spacer to the panels instead of the ribs (which would take some measuring, but nothing more than what you are already doing) you could just drill from the front side, couldn't you? Wouldn't this solve the "hole" problem? actually you wouldn't even need to measure, just cover the existing holes on the interior skin panels with the spacer and then drill, then attach...

I am going to look into the cork - I am thinking I will put in on the floor anyway. I was talking with a friend and he though of just using 1/2 inch foam over all the ribs and spaces (where the interior skin usually goes) and then attaching the interior skin over this, through to the ribs, basically add 1/2 inch the walls - I thought that getting the rivets to work through that muich stuff would be troublesome though, probably be to wavy and bumpy where the foam compressed too much.

Keep posting your progress, I well send some pictures when I decide what to do.

Thanks,

Carlos Ferguson
__________________

__________________
jcferguson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2005, 02:02 PM   #30
4 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 389
spacer

Just re-read your post and realized you had suggested what I just suggested back to you about the foam on the inside! I should read carefully..

I don't see a spacer on the interior of the end part there, is it just not in place yet or was it not necessary there?

Carlos
__________________

__________________
jcferguson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 01:33 PM   #31
Rivet Master
 
1973 31' Sovereign
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,245
Images: 22
Carlos,

The photos I furnished are indeed before I added the spacers on the inside side. I must not have taken my camera out to the AS during that part of the session. I did add the 1/2" spacers before putting the skin on.

I don't think it would be a good idea to put foam as thick as 1/2" over the ribs before putting the skin back on. The inner skins do furnish some structural value which might not work too well with too much mushy material between the skin and the ribs.

Cork underlayment might be a good choice depending on cost. It occurred to me that thin foam is also available in the form of underlayment for floating floors. I bet it is a lot cheaper than the cork and maybe easier to punch a hole in. Spray ahesive sounds like a good idea for attachment. If I just wanted strips along the ribs I don't suppose it would be all that hard to locate them on the back side of the skin. If I used 5" or 6" wide sill sealer I could miss exact centering a bit and still be fine. One place to check for relative costs of the underlayment materials is the following:

http://www.ifloor.com/productdisplay...4455&N=9%20121

The various underlayment options are shown at the bottom of the page.

I think I will have to think more seriously about adding something. I am not too sure I want to take the end skins back off to install it there though.

Malcolm
__________________
malconium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 12:38 PM   #32
Rivet Master
 
Foiled Again's Avatar
 
2012 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Vintage Kin Owner
Virginia Beach , Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,883
Arrow Foil Bubble Insulation

I get some extremely wierd ideas from time to time, so here's a strange idea I had. I'm planning on fulltiming. I'm not retired so I'll be in the trailer is some COLD weather. Now I've heard about skirting the trailer with hay bales, 2 inch styrofoam, etc. I don't think that's an idea I can use because I won't be able to leave my trailer stationary for the whole winter. If I have to go to Lynchburg or Ohio for a couple of weeks I need a "skirt" I can take with me - so weight & space are considerations. I am maintaining a storage locker where I'll stow it in the summer.

I sew.

Here's the whacked out idea. Could I really make a skirt - like a real skirt for my trailer using foil bubble insulation? I thought about using canvas and "hose carriers" straight cast iron stakes with a loop or hook on the top to carry a hose above the ground or over a flower bead. I thought I'd make a pocket at the top and stick flexible pipe insulation inside the pocket - pushing that into the lower sidewall of my trailer with the hose carriers holding up the top of the skirt and holding the skirt tight against the sidewall. I could have a bottom pocket that I'd run a garden hose through - full of water, (or Ice) that should hold the bottom of the skirt to the ground. Is the foam bubble insulation flexible enough to line the skirt with? Would it give me passable protection and help reduce heat loss under the trailer.

I also thought I could keep the underside slightly warm by throwing some lights under there, possibly even fluorescent grow lights so a campground couldn't complain that I was killing grass?

I've got a 22ft CCD so circumference would be about 56 ft, max drop 3 feet?

Comments?

Tin Lizziie
__________________
Foiled Again is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 03:08 PM   #33
Rivet Master
 
Over59's Avatar
 
1959 26' Overlander
Putnam , Connecticut
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,064
Images: 37
I would think anything that blocks the wind would help. Heat loss is by the "wind chill" not the temperature. It's hard to follow your design but the concept sounds sound. You could use snap fasterners like the boats use.
__________________
Over59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 03:21 PM   #34
3 Rivet Member
 
AirConditioner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 152
Blow up your skirt!

If you like wild ideas: Howabout buying the cheap inflatable boat fenders or an adaptation of the inflatable long pillows used to surround oil spills.

Place them continuously under your Airstream, inflate them carefully, and you have a dead air space underneath.

No structural challanges.

Put a couple 100 watt shatter-resistant bulbs under there and you have further pre-heated the under chassis space. The inflated materials will not easily be blown out, and will provide great overall support for the entire rim of the unit. You'll never sink in the mud! This approach was used often by travellers with AVON Inflatables many years back to ferry cars and trucks across rivers where no bridge crossed.
__________________
AirConditioner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 10:58 PM   #35
Rivet Master
 
Foiled Again's Avatar
 
2012 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Vintage Kin Owner
Virginia Beach , Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,883
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirConditioner
If you like wild ideas: Howabout buying the cheap inflatable boat fenders or an adaptation of the inflatable long pillows used to surround oil spills.

Place them continuously under your Airstream, inflate them carefully, and you have a dead air space underneath.
Interesting - sounds easy. Any idea of what cost? Where would you find these?

Thanks, Tin Lizzie
__________________
Foiled Again is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2005, 01:01 PM   #36
Rivet Master
 
1973 31' Sovereign
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,245
Images: 22
A couple of thoughts occur to me about your wild ideas. First of all the foil is relatively flexible but about like lighter weight cardboard. The foil would work best if it is exposed on the inside for best reflective action. You could perhaps attach it to the back side of some sort of fabric depending on the look you were after. I would guess you could sew through it if you wanted to. Some sort of glue would also work.

If you like the idea of inflatables maybe the thing to do is to consider using inexpensive air mattresses. You could perhaps make a fabric sleave to put them in that you could attach along the bottom of your AS. I don't know for sure if you can get ones that are wide enough to fill the space from the AS to the ground though.

Malcolm
__________________
malconium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2005, 04:13 PM   #37
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3
Hi all-

I just bought a Globetrotter because my daughter wants to travel with me this season- and I started gutting it because the interior was already missing. I want to try and update the insulation and wiring (first time for this sort of thing..) and I am amazed to say the least. I have many years experience in residential remodeling and commercial construction yet these things are very unique!


I have numerous questions I hope can be answered by the members of this forum; I will ask them one at a time in hopes of not taking up too much space.



#1 Why isn’t there a vapor barrier on these things??? I am most surprised to see that the most common of all modern building and construction products cannot be found in any form on Airstreams. Why? Aside from keeping out the moisture in your precious insulating endeavors- it blocks a lot of wind! Translation: it helps preserve internal temperature. Granted, it would be difficult to install Tyvek (or similar) around all the framing members- especially when you consider that it should (ideally) be located on the outside of your insulation. Why not just a simple plastic or Mylar sheet taped to the inner skin before insulating- Or even one located just beneath the interior skin? Am I missing something here? Please help me understand…



I was interested to read that others have considered a ‘from scratch’ approach to help reach better thermal efficiency (hay bales HAS to help somewhat! - clever). The biggest problem I see is the fundamental design itself: metal framing. In a residential basement- you must space out a metal framed wall away from the exterior wall (block, stone, concrete…) because the moisture condenses on the inside due to thermal migration. The properties of a metal framed wall, despite how well insulated they are, include “cold spots” that will migrate on the inside because metal studs conduct heat and cold much faster than the insulation. I don’t know how efficient an Airstream could ever become without encroaching on the inside space.

Thanks for any input!



__________________
Travis_in_MD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2005, 09:53 PM   #38
uwe
418
 
uwe's Avatar
 
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley , California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,767
Images: 41
Send a message via Skype™ to uwe
Malcolm,

Your insulation idea makes sense. I am thinking of ripping off your idea to use on my 1963 Overlander project.
Where did you buy the foil? ( pm me if you don't want to plug the company you bought it from)
How much did you end up using? ( My trailer is 26ft, bumper to tongue, about a 22/23ft tube)

I like the idea of fiberglass insulation making contact with the interior skin for noise reduction reasons. I am thinking of closing cabinet or entry doors, general mechanical noises, as well as outside noise reduction. Do you think that the interior mechanical noise will be louder than before?
I would install thin square foot sections of noise reduction panels to the back of the interior skin.

Your project looks great! Nice job. Thanks for the updates.
__________________
Uwe
www.area63productions.com
uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2005, 09:58 PM   #39
Rivet Master
 
1973 31' Sovereign
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,245
Images: 22
Thoughts about moisture barriers...

I think the aluminum outer skin is going to be pretty much wind proof eliminating the need for a moisture barrier to help in that area. Also it is pretty hard to envision tyvek blocking moisture from the inside of the AS better than the inner aluminum skin does (except where there are seams and holes). The biggest problem with the potential for moisture getting into the insulation might very well be leaks from the outside. I guess the various issues about moisture in the walls is part of what lead me to decide to use foil insulation instead of fiberglass. I also drilled small drain holes in the bottom of the wall cavities to provide a way for larger amounts of moisture to get out if they ever get in.

About the metal frame...

You are absolutely right about the metal frame being a problem with achieving maximimum insulation in an AS wall. Of course so is the fact that the walls are only 1-1/2" thick. It is, first of all, unreasonable to think that we can acheive the types of insulation values that are typical in residential construction. I think the idea is to do the best we can given the starting conditions. It is, of course, true that the aluminum frame members are not as good of an insulator as fiberglass. In residential construction it is also true that the wood frame members are not as good of an insulator as fiberglass or other types of insulation. Of course wood is a better insulator than the aluminum framing. The point, however, is that in residential construction the idea is to get the best average insulation per square foot of wall given a particular type of construction that might very well have different insulation values for the different parts of the wall assembly. I think the same is true for an AS. I also think that providing some form of thermal break between the frame and the inner skin would help a lot.

Malcolm
__________________
malconium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2005, 10:11 PM   #40
Rivet Master
 
1973 31' Sovereign
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,245
Images: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwe
Malcolm,

Your insulation idea makes sense. I am thinking of ripping off your idea to use on my 1963 Overlander project.
Where did you buy the foil? ( pm me if you don't want to plug the company you bought it from)
How much did you end up using? ( My trailer is 26ft, bumper to tongue, about a 22/23ft tube)

I like the idea of fiberglass insulation making contact with the interior skin for noise reduction reasons. I am thinking of closing cabinet or entry doors, general mechanical noises, as well as outside noise reduction. Do you think that the interior mechanical noise will be louder than before?
I would install thin square foot sections of noise reduction panels to the back of the interior skin.

Your project looks great! Nice job. Thanks for the updates.
Uwe,

I found my insulation at Lowes. It is the Reflectix brand. I bought 4' wide rolls. I don't have my calculations in front of me relative to how much I bought but I can give you a hint as to how I calculated the amount to start with (I have not finished installation so I might be off). I measured the distance from the floor to the center of the ceiling (along the wall and in feet) and multiplied that by 2. I then took the entire length of the inside of the trailer (in your case about 23') and multiplied it by the above measurement to get an aproximate area to buy. I thought that would be enough to do the end caps since I would not need to use foil where the window, door, wheel wells and other openings were. Since I found my foil locally I thought it would be pretty easy to buy a little more later if I ran out before I was finished. If I remember correctly the distance from the floor to the center of the ceiling is about 8 feet. That means 8' * 2 * 23' = 368 sq feet. You will have to round off to the nearest roll amount and thats where I would start if I were you.

I frankly don't know about the noise issues with the foil as compared to fiberglass. I have no experience with how it sounds in normal conditions so I will have no metric for noticing any difference. Ignorance is bliss they say. As a practical matter adding the fiberglass might reduce the effectiveness of the foil a little bit since it seems to do better with an air gap next to it. How much reduction I don't know. What you might consider doing is to do what I have done in the larger cavities (not particulary on purpose for sound reduction but to help keep the foil centered). I glued 1" wide foam strips or even just smaller pieces of foam on both the outside skin and on the inside of the foil. That might very well do the same thing as you are thinking about with the fiberglass.

Malcolm
__________________
malconium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2005, 01:14 PM   #41
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
hi malcolm and others

your progress with the foil insulation is nice and from the pictures the technique is first rate. it's great that you've documented with so many pictures because once the interior is completed, no one will be know what you've done....maybe you need to do one spot of interior wall with a square foot of lexan....so folks can view the inner details....a see through inner wall?

as for the added tyvek type vapor barrier....given the outer skin, inner skin and wall covering that's about enough barriers. adding more would likely increase moisture retention issues....keep in mind we can add several quarts of water vapor to the insides just hanging out in the tube.....venting is just as important as insulation in an airstream.

mark
you suggested a thermal break at the rib/skin connection....i recently toured the factory (will post pics soon) and they are now using a thin "double stick tape like material" applied to the ribs/cross beams/supports before the outer skin is applied. apparently it hold the skin in place while the rivets are applied and gives the thermal break you suggest between the outer skin and support grid. i didn't see a second layer between the inner skin and inner surface of the ribs....i'll have to look at my pics, but i don't think they are using it on the inner skin.

i'm sure you all know the fiberglass insulation is r-11 and the foil r-19 so this added insulation factor is significant. of course it doesn't address the biggest heat loss issue....single layer glass windows.

don the tour guide said they are using the foil on all slides now. he suggested an entire coach could be done with foil as a special order, but i don't know if this is offical airstream info or just his opinion. since my unit was on the line and just 2-3 days from completion.....i didn't ask them to go back and change the insulation....but i thought about it.

anyway great job with the foil.
cheers
2airishuman
__________________
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2005, 05:37 PM   #42
Site Team
 
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,940
Images: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
hi malcolm and others

i'm sure you all know the fiberglass insulation is r-11 and the foil r-19 so this added insulation factor is significant. of course it doesn't address the biggest heat loss issue....single layer glass windows.

2airishuman
2air',

Not wanting to detract from the GREAT job Malcolm is doing, but I don't think the R-19 value is accurate. If you read the manufacturer's info, the R-19 is for Reflectix inside a 3 1/2" wall cavity with 3/4" wood sheathing on both sides. Thats a lot different than 1 1/2" with aluminum sheathing, since the air-gaps are a critical part of the system..

I think Malcolm has done a great job, but I wouldn't expect to get R-19.
__________________

__________________
markdoane is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pipe insulation niftypkg Plumbing - Systems & Fixtures 1 09-22-2002 10:34 PM
Bunk in Bubble kzener40 General Interior Topics 3 09-22-2002 04:18 PM
Stripe on Bubble??? kzener40 Airstream Motorhome Forums 11 09-12-2002 07:40 AM
New tires for my 1956 Bubble.... kzener40 Tires 8 07-27-2002 01:41 PM
1957 Bubble International... BobbyW Our Community 0 05-18-2002 10:56 AM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.