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Old 02-10-2011, 11:46 AM   #1
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Convert water gravity tank to outside pressure

I have a beautiful vintage 64 overlander international that I need to update some systems. At some point, the water lines burst (have found 4 burst points so far) and since I can't find the pump anywhere, I'm guessing it was cut out. Many of the lines are cut. Since the rig is so original, I wasn't sure if there was a way to modify the plug on the outside, or can I keep the grafity fill plug, and the plastic tank, and put in a new water pump. However, the idea is to put a turn off valve right past the pump. I would then add a faucet input somewhere else - say in the "trunk" (rear access panel?) that also has a shut off. Then, all I need to do is turn off the one at the pump, turn on the one at the rear, and I can use the city water pressure throughout.

Is there a better way to do this so I don't have to keep checking the water level in the tank, or am I just being silly.

Also, is it true the graywater just runs out the bottom of the vehicle? Is that a big no-no at the campground?
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:03 PM   #2
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Yes there is a way.

I replaced all of the plumbing in my Argosy with PEX tubing and Flair It fittings. The tubing is available at the big home improvement stores. The Flair It fittings I bought on line. Here is a photo of all the valves that I installed to bypass the water heater and to switch from city to house water. The blue tubing is cold water and the red is hot water. Click on the imaage to get a better view. No special tools were required other than a PVC tubing cutter for the PEX.
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:27 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robwok View Post
I have a beautiful vintage 64 overlander international that I need to update some systems. At some point, the water lines burst (have found 4 burst points so far) and since I can't find the pump anywhere, I'm guessing it was cut out. Many of the lines are cut. Since the rig is so original, I wasn't sure if there was a way to modify the plug on the outside, or can I keep the grafity fill plug, and the plastic tank, and put in a new water pump. However, the idea is to put a turn off valve right past the pump. I would then add a faucet input somewhere else - say in the "trunk" (rear access panel?) that also has a shut off. Then, all I need to do is turn off the one at the pump, turn on the one at the rear, and I can use the city water pressure throughout.

Is there a better way to do this so I don't have to keep checking the water level in the tank, or am I just being silly.
Nope, you're on the right track. As TG Twinkie stated above, you can replace all of the old freshwater plumbing with new. He used PEX, and so did I, it's much easier than copper IMO, especially if you're not taking your entire trailer apart and rebuilding from scratch.

You don't even need the two valves you're talking about, all you actually need is a check valve in-line from the city water input that prevents water from flowing back out of it when you're using the on-board tank and pump. A check valve is a simple little thing, it's a one-way valve with no knobs or anything else, it simply allows water to flow in only one direction. Looks like this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...DGQ6YCJPE02MX4

If your pump is missing you'll need a new one, and the new pumps have a similar check valve built into them that prevents water from back-flowing through the pump and into the tank when you're pressurizing your system from the outside with city water.

This is actually all quite standard and is essentially the way your trailer originally came, although I'm sure it's hard to see with all of the modifications that have since been made. You can also add all sorts of helpful tools for winterizing, as TG Twinkie did with the water heater bypasses and such.

There are a lot of threads in the plumbing subforum about good ways to replumb your trailer if you're interested, and that sounds like exactly what you need to do.


Quote:
Also, is it true the graywater just runs out the bottom of the vehicle? Is that a big no-no at the campground?
Yes, in the olden days gray water just ran out. (Heck, in the really olden days, RV toilets just flowed straight out the bottom of the trailer and the people dug a hole to accept the waste, then covered it and buried it when moving on).

But of course, neither of those are viewed as particularly acceptable at most modern campgrounds. You can always buy a "blue boy" which is a portable gray water tank. When it fills up, you take it to the nearest dump station and dump it, then bring it back to your trailer. You can find these at many RV places or online, here's one example:

RV Waste Holding Tanks from Tote-N-Stor

Alternatively, you can add a gray tank to your vintage travel trailer, many folks around here have done that as well (including me).

Good luck!
-Marcus
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:43 PM   #4
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utee94 is correct

You don't need the valves I installed to shut off city and house water if you have check valves. I like the shut offs just for the fact that they are positive; a check valve could get a grain of sand or something in it causing it to leak. The decisions is yours. One thing I failed to mention is you will need a pressure regulator on the city water side, usually 40# units are installed. The one I use just attaches to the end of my city water hose.
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:50 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by utee94 View Post

This is actually all quite standard and is essentially the way your trailer originally came, although I'm sure it's hard to see with all of the modifications that have since been made. You can also add all sorts of helpful tools for winterizing, as TG Twinkie did with the water heater bypasses and such.

There are a lot of threads in the plumbing subforum about good ways to replumb your trailer if you're interested, and that sounds like exactly what you need to do.

Good luck!
-Marcus
Thanks. I tried to find the plumbing sub forum (I knew you had to have one) but couldn't find it. I read about the WBBCI recommendations on gopher holes. Sounds delightful. Since my trailer is pretty near perfect, I'm struggling with how to add a gray water tank (under the goucho seems to be the spot, but I have the original goucho deep plastic drawers and not sure there is room) the belly pan is also about perfect. It's a struggle to update without affecting the vintage condition.

Thanks for the info on the check valves. I know what they are, but didn't realize they were used in this application. However, I can't find a water hose hookup anywhere in my vehicle. I don't believe the original setup was designed to take a hose hookup like what you're referring to. Mine looks like you pour it in until it overflows out the side of the trailer. If that's the case, where should I put a hose hookup for a campsite hookup?
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:00 PM   #6
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Normally, the gray tank is in the belly pan. Bear in mind one of the rules of plumbing...#$it don't run uphill.

For the shower to run into the gray tank, the tank needs to be under the floor to be the lowest point.

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Old 02-10-2011, 01:46 PM   #7
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. . . However, I can't find a water hose hookup anywhere in my vehicle. I don't believe the original setup was designed to take a hose hookup like what you're referring to. Mine looks like you pour it in until it overflows out the side of the trailer. If that's the case, where should I put a hose hookup for a campsite hookup?
Hi Robwok:

Your trailer originally had a city water hose connection at the street side rear corner. Lift the rear bumper cover and look at the far left side for it.

The original water pump would have been in the rear service center to the left of the toilet. Take off the rear end hatch and look for hoses that once connected the water pump to the water system.

Do you have an Owner's Manual among your original paperwork? If so, it should have a chapter on operating the water system.
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:10 PM   #8
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Convert water gravity tank to outside pressure

Greetings Rob!

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwok View Post
I have a beautiful vintage 64 overlander international that I need to update some systems. At some point, the water lines burst (have found 4 burst points so far) and since I can't find the pump anywhere, I'm guessing it was cut out.
The PAR water pump that was original equipment on our coaches is VERY difficult to miss as it is massive when compared to modern pumps. You will find the pump (if it is there) in the rear "one-stop-service compartment" in the streetside corner in front of the big green (or gray) Univolt. The pump is a cylindrical device with a belt-driven attachment on the top.

There should be a city water hookup on the streetside bumper frame. You will find a dome-shaped water pressure regulator just inside the one-stop-service compartment in the streetside corner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwok View Post
Many of the lines are cut. Since the rig is so original, I wasn't sure if there was a way to modify the plug on the outside, or can I keep the grafity fill plug, and the plastic tank, and put in a new water pump. However, the idea is to put a turn off valve right past the pump. I would then add a faucet input somewhere else - say in the "trunk" (rear access panel?) that also has a shut off. Then, all I need to do is turn off the one at the pump, turn on the one at the rear, and I can use the city water pressure throughout.
My suggestion would be to maintain the original external city water connection. The modern replacements tend to create several more points where leaks may start, and there aren't any that I have found that are complimentary to the aesthetics of the Airstream. The built-in brass regulator is also something that I would suggest maintaining -- my '64 Airstream is the first RV that I have owned that hasn't experienced as water line blow-out due to excess campground water pressure when connected to city water.

You will also find a city/onboard valve just inside the one-stop-service compartment that conveniently allows you to switch between the two sources. If you don't already have a copy, the 1964 Airstream Overlander Owner's manual has some decent illustrations of the facilities in the one-stop-service compartment (see link for reproductions).

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwok View Post
Is there a better way to do this so I don't have to keep checking the water level in the tank, or am I just being silly.
Once you get adjusted to your coach, you will be able to make good educated guesses as to your fresh water tank level. You will also notice a difference in the sound of the PAR water pump will vary according to the level of the water in the tank. I also find that I rarely run short of water in the onboard tank as I try to run with the tank full at all times to insur a smooth, stable ride.

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Originally Posted by robwok View Post
Also, is it true the graywater just runs out the bottom of the vehicle? Is that a big no-no at the campground?
It was permissible to allow the graywater to run onto the ground until the 1970s. In recent years, the EPA has become much more adamant about the collection of graywater on RVs. There are basically three options open to owners of '64 Overlanders:
  • Place solid cap on black tank drain and open drain valve which allows both the blackwater and graywater to drain into the same tank. The down-side is that you MUST remember to close the drain valve prior to removing the cap -- and you will need a bucket to catch the waste trapped between the blade-valve and the cap.
  • The most common solution is to carry a "blue-tote-tank" to catch the graywater -- these are readily available from nearly every RV dealership's parts department -- they are available in sizes from 5 gallons to more than 50 gallons with the larger tanks having adaptors that allow them to be towed behind your tow vehicle to the nearest dump station.
  • The more long-term solution is to add a graywater tank. This can be an expensive proposition as there are three sources to be collected -- kitchen sink, bathroom vanity, and bath/shower. The black tank takes up much of the available under-floor space so the potential tank size is likely to be rather small as well.
I have carried "blue tote tanks" with both of my Airstreams, and they aren't all that inconvenient once you become accustomed to the drill. The one thing that you may encounter is that there is a variability in the dump valve plumbing that your coach may have:
  • The original dump valve arrangement was brass and all of the associated pieces were metal. Needless to say that these pieces have been long out of production so when a piece is lost or broken, upgrading to new is almost impossible to avoid.
  • Airstream always favored Thetford waste tank plumbing equipment which can be identified by the white color of the plastic pieces. These are not extremely common in the RV industry today so extra pieces must often be ordered.
  • The industry standard today is the Valterra pieces that are generally black plastic. The quality is far below that of Thetford (IMHO), but you can find a replacement just about anywhere that RV plumbing parts are sold.
Good luck with your investigation!

Kevin
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:24 PM   #9
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Convert water gravity tank to outside pressure

Greetings Rob!

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwok View Post
Thanks. I tried to find the plumbing sub forum (I knew you had to have one) but couldn't find it. I read about the WBBCI recommendations on gopher holes. Sounds delightful. Since my trailer is pretty near perfect, I'm struggling with how to add a gray water tank (under the goucho seems to be the spot, but I have the original goucho deep plastic drawers and not sure there is room) the belly pan is also about perfect. It's a struggle to update without affecting the vintage condition.
Realistically, you would be impacting not only the balance of your coach, but also creating the need for at least two and possibly three "bilge" pumps to pump water from the the kitchen sink drain, the bathroom vanity drain, and the tub/shower drain to the proposed tank location below the front lounge. You would then need a dump valve in reasonably close proximity to the tank's location which would mean the need to reposition the coach at least once anytime that the tanks need to be dumped. You would also need to provide for an atmospheric vent for the proposed graywater tank that would likely be very visible from the front of the coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwok View Post
Thanks for the info on the check valves. I know what they are, but didn't realize they were used in this application. However, I can't find a water hose hookup anywhere in my vehicle. I don't believe the original setup was designed to take a hose hookup like what you're referring to. Mine looks like you pour it in until it overflows out the side of the trailer. If that's the case, where should I put a hose hookup for a campsite hookup?
The original plumbing arrangement on our coaches did not include check valves for the onboard pump; rather, we had a valve that has to be turned to switch from city water to onboard supply. It doesn't take long to get accustomed to its operation as water will flow out of the the city water valve when the demand pump runs if the city/onboard valve isn't in the correct position (this may have been modified over the years).

When filling the onboard tank through the bunge hole on the side of the coach, you will typically see water begin to flow through the tank overflow just before water will begin flowing out of the main fill. To keep the bunge plug easier to remove, you may find it helpful to coat the threads with petroleum jelly to prevent thread seizure.

The city water connection isn't immediately obvious when looking at the streetside rear bumper support, but if you look closely, you should see the hose connection bib just below the bumper. It is pictured in the '64 Overlander Twin's owners manual.

Good luck with your investigations!

Kevin
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:34 PM   #10
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wow, thanks guys. This is all making so much more sense now. You ask me about beekeeping, banking, IT, or woodworking and I can go all day, but I'm like a kindergartner when it comes to this AS. I do remember the water pump now. I was so focused on some other items in the one stop compartment (like the ancient power supply and the busted copper hoses). It took me a while to find the electrical hookup, so I think I know what you're talking about with the hose now. I didn't know what it was, so I didn't want to pull too hard. I also think that there has been some modification to the black water tank, but since a lot of the lines are cut, I'll need to hook them all up again to test anything.

There are so many bursts in the water lines. Is it possible for the pump to be damaged in a freeze? how about the water heater? will I know only after I hook it up and either the pump or the heater start to leak?
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:53 PM   #11
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Convert water gravity tank to outside pressure

Greetings Rob!

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwok View Post
I do remember the water pump now. I was so focused on some other items in the one stop compartment (like the ancient power supply and the busted copper hoses). It took me a while to find the electrical hookup, so I think I know what you're talking about with the hose now.
When compared to any modern RV, the retro fixtures in our coaches can be a little difficult to identify. It is possible to damage the water pump in a freeze, and you may be able to find replacement parts from a Marine supplier but that is a little less certain than the rebuild kits which are still comparatively easy to find.

The 30-AMP electrical connection is the one thing that I finally gave up on and installed a modern Marinco connector through the wall of the one-stop-service compartment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwok View Post
I didn't know what it was, so I didn't want to pull too hard. I also think that there has been some modification to the black water tank, but since a lot of the lines are cut, I'll need to hook them all up again to test anything.
You are working toward conquering one of the most frustrating parts of Vintage Airstream ownership -- conquering the decades of sometimes less than ideal previous owners' solutions to burst pipes or leaky connections. I would almost be surprised if you don't find that a modern Thetford or Valterra dump valve has been fiberglassed onto your blackwater tank. This modification is among the very most common that you will find as the metal fittings used with the OEM setup have unobtanium for at least two decades and probably a bit longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwok View Post
There are so many bursts in the water lines. Is it possible for the pump to be damaged in a freeze? how about the water heater? will I know only after I hook it up and either the pump or the heater start to leak?
You are correct in that the easiest and most direct check is the water check - - but it is also possible to utilize and air pressure test -- but it can take a huge amount of time to seal all of the leaks both fixture and piping.

Good luck with your research!

Kevin
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robwok View Post
wow, thanks guys. This is all making so much more sense now. You ask me about beekeeping, banking, IT, or woodworking and I can go all day, but I'm like a kindergartner when it comes to this AS. I do remember the water pump now. I was so focused on some other items in the one stop compartment (like the ancient power supply and the busted copper hoses). It took me a while to find the electrical hookup, so I think I know what you're talking about with the hose now. I didn't know what it was, so I didn't want to pull too hard. I also think that there has been some modification to the black water tank, but since a lot of the lines are cut, I'll need to hook them all up again to test anything.

There are so many bursts in the water lines. Is it possible for the pump to be damaged in a freeze? how about the water heater? will I know only after I hook it up and either the pump or the heater start to leak?
If it's as bad as you say, I'd plan on redoing all of the plumbing from scratch. Ultimately, it will probably be faster and simpler than patching the old.

Agree with others, if you want to add a gray tank, the best place to do so is slung under the floorboards, within the frame. But, you'll definitely have to remove at least a section of bellypan to do that. Many people have had success just using the blueboy rolling tote.

Good luck!
-Marcus
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
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If it's as bad as you say, I'd plan on redoing all of the plumbing from scratch. Ultimately, it will probably be faster and simpler than patching the old.

Agree with others, if you want to add a gray tank, the best place to do so is slung under the floorboards, within the frame. But, you'll definitely have to remove at least a section of bellypan to do that. Many people have had success just using the blueboy rolling tote.

Good luck!
-Marcus
Sorry, I wasn't clear, I do plan on redoing all the plubing completely, I was just wondering if I would have a chance on salvaging either the pump or the heater. This airstream was barely used, so I wonder if I can keep some of the older sytems, or replace them. I know I am replacing the furnace, and I don't have an AC yet. I am replacing Axles, Rims, and Wheels already, and I have a little bit of floor work near the entrance, and then I put in new tiles, and the goucho cushions. I think that's all I have to do, but I am well open to having someone tell me to replace my other systems if they are going to be problematic. If I don't have a great experience the first couple trips out, my wife may start to backpedal.
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Old 02-11-2011, 07:25 AM   #14
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Convert water gravity tank to outside pressure

Greetings Rob!

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwok View Post
I was just wondering if I would have a chance on salvaging either the pump or the heater. If I don't have a great experience the first couple trips out, my wife may start to backpedal.
My concern would lie less with the water pump and more with the water heater. I spent three seasons trying to nurse the then 31 plus year-old Bowen water heater in my coach through modern camping experiences. While the tank didn't start leaking until the third season of use, the burner was exceedingly temperamental and required adjustment several times per day - - and the pilot light would blow out with the least amount of encouragment from light winds.

I don't remember now whether my new water heater is an Atwood or Suburban, I do know that the pilot light and burner are much less temperamental. In general the only adjustment that is necessary is of the air mixture when moving from the lower elevations in the Midwest to the increased elevations of the Rocky Mountains. If I were to replace my water heater today, I would be certain to select one with electronic ignition and remote start to reduce the need to hike to the access door to address the water heater.

I am still using the same PAR water pump -- it is on its third rebuild since I purchased the coach in 1995.

Good luck with your reasearch and projects!

Kevin

P.S.: You could always try my solution to water pump worries - - I purchased an inexpensive Sur-Flow pump to carry as a spare -- 15 years later that pump is still in its original unopened box in one of the storage bins under the front lounge. I also cary two rebuild kits for my PAR pump since it is quite easy to service, if necessary, while on the road.
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