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Old 04-23-2004, 09:24 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by silver suz
Guys, what you fail to realise that these OK doses are based on your average healthy adult male. that's the standard of the test. How many average healthy adult males do we have in the USA?? Oops, they are in the minority, yet the standards are only based on just that .They are based on a bell shaped curve- the highest part of the bell is considered average., the most males. What it doesn't cover is the tails- the extremes. An average healthy guy who can drink pesticides with no problems, is at one extreme. At the other is the man who goes into anaphylactic shock from a whiff of it.
the "curve" of which you speak is very shallow. the difference between the extremes is very small, otherwise, the streets would be lined with bodies. we are simply not that different. you are exposed to much higher quantities of all of these commonly used lawn care chemicals every day from the food you eat than from any other source. there's nothing unique about turf treatments; they almost all are adapted from commercial crop use.

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Now none of this deals with babies, pregnant women (especially young enough in gestation that they might not be aware of motherhood- but at an extremely critical time in the fetus' growth. Nor does it consider the bell curves of little old ladies with cancer. Or the bell shape curve of kids. you average healthy males who worked with chemicals are on one tail of the bell shape curve- but have you considered the damage to your ability to produce normal healthy kids?
PG women shouldn't handle pesticides. the one's I worked with were "promoted" to indoor jobs.

there is no damage to my ability to produce normal, healthy kids. I have proof. more than you want to know. There was also (anecdotally) no shortage of healthy babies born to my colleagues while I was working in the industry.

Look, I understand your situation, and its a difficult row to hoe, for sure. but it is extremely rare. The comparisons you make between typical household chemicals and "love canal", though, are rediculous. that's like comparing a campfire to the Hiroshima bombing, and saying "fire is fire".

CCA treated wood has never been a mystery. but why do you suppose bugs won't eat cedar and redwood? and why are hardy mums so "hardy"? because they're full of poison, too. (well...its poison to the bugs...not to us). In fact, 3/4 of the CDC's list of known carcinogens are naturally occuring substances.

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It always is prudent to use the least toxic method- like boric acid and sugar, and boric acid and grease, placed where kids and pets are safe.
I'm in complete agreement with that. it only makes sense. I'm not certain about this, but I think it is the most effective treatment for houshold ants, too. why cut butter with a chain-saw?

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To you guys who worked in the chemical businesses I salute your health! You are on the right side of the curve -so far. Silver Suz
there was a study done a few years ago on people who had applied lawncare pesticides long term. the industry hasn't been around that long, really...but more than 30 years, now. anyway, there was a significant study sample of people that had been doing it for 25+ years. in every measureable way, they were healthier than the average person in the general population. so that must mean that pesticides are a health elixer, then, right? no. it means that they get lots of exercise and fresh air, the benefits of which far exceed the miniscule risks of handling these particular pesticides. and these guys are exposed to hundreds of times more stuff than most people would ever dream of. the thing I feared the most about that job in terms of long term risk was (is) skin cancer, from too much sun exposure.
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Old 04-23-2004, 10:04 AM   #44
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People who have the money and value system to take care of their property are also more likely to take care of theirself and have access to health care, medicine and all that chemical food. Those who have enough money to have someone else do the work can afford the organic food.
If you have a pest problem and don't remove their access to food they will eventually come back. Give the people in the airstream next to you gifts of crackers and cookies so the ansts go over to their house....
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Old 04-23-2004, 10:11 AM   #45
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Sorry if I went overboard yesterday- even if my own health problems were caused by pesticide exposure-I had had the worst asthma attack I've ever had requiring Doctor intervention. I'm not used to asthma! I think the lawn chem guys would use the proper doses, not like the average owner who might think if some is good, more is better. I've been guilty of that using kelp granules in my organic garden!
I also admit the majority of my friends have been made very ill from exposure to chemicals so I have a small population to compare to. Ortho, several years ago, put out a garden product, that was supposed to be organic but one of the "inert ingredients" was a major poison. Law suits are still going on from that. I.E. I don't trust big companies.
But if you say it's okay, then why do you have pg women move into office work? If it's ok they should be able to spray lawn materials too.
And Lawn chemicals are such a small part of our chemical exposures as you say. I think generally too many chemicals are used, I do not want to pick on just the lawn chem industry. That's just one of the tips on an iceburg. Just take care in believing studies like the one you quoted. Who funded it? How independent is the study? Did they include the people who dropped out along the way due to illness? Or just the remaining healthy survivors. Having worked with studies and statistics, and the great care that is required to have unbiased data, I know how easily the results can be skewed. So , please pardon me for getting on a soapbox- my opinion is definately biased due to lack of air to breathe!!! I apologise. SORRY SORRY SORRY. ( It's just that avoiding chemicals controls my entire life, to the extent that most people would find unimaginable. Sorry again, it's still hard to breathe. Silver suz Please put up with or ignore my occasional tirades, I am now confined to my house (which has $14,000 worth of air filtering equiptment) per doctor's orders, I can't even stick my head out the door- and that gets REALLY BORING. This illness was brought on by a careless pesticide operator who used too much of a now banned chemical, and failed to notify us apartment dwellers. I REALLY enjoy communicating with "normies" on this forum.!! ps. you are right---I am feeling sorry for myself right now... :0
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Old 04-23-2004, 10:57 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver suz
I think the lawn chem guys would use the proper doses, not like the average owner who might think if some is good, more is better. I've been guilty of that using kelp granules in my organic garden!
That's actually one of the selling points of the service! and most of the stuff they use is available in any hardware store. people buy the stuff and misuse it all the time. One of the things that peeves me is that we had to put these little yellow flags (required in many states...but not all) on lawns when we applied something. seems like a good idea...but it was a double-edged sword. people (concerned neighbors) automatically assume that there's something particularly nasty that promted the gov't to force us to do that, which scares them unecessarily. The reality is that its the same stuff thats in "Scott's Turfbuilder"...only it was applied by someone that knows what they're doing. so you should be calmed by that little yellow flag. homeowner's are not required to post, even if they apply 10 times worth of the same stuff. actually, the thing about those "4-step" programs is that they include all the stuff that you "might" need in any given season. not the stuff that you DO need. they might be good...but they're not clairvoyant.

believe it or not, in the 10 years I did this work, I think it is safe to say that I talked more people out of treatments than I talked into them.

"you don't need it". "that grub (singular) won't eat much". "nope, no bugs...just dry. apply more DHMO". "mushrooms? too much DHMO".

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But if you say it's okay, then why do you have pg women move into office work? If it's ok they should be able to spray lawn materials too.
it probably IS ok...but its "unkown", and would be unethical to study. so the SOP is to err on the obvious side of caution. remember, though, that there is a huge difference between handling and applying this stuff, and "casual" exposure, like having your lawn treated.

I can't remember who did that study, but I want to say it was U-Penn. It was obviously a retrospective study of people who have done that exact job for years and years and years, so the "drop out" thing doesn't apply. It certainly doesn't prove that all chems are harmless, yadda yadda yadda. it does show a large population unharmed by years of exposure at much higher levels than the general public.
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Old 04-23-2004, 10:58 AM   #47
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We have all been talking about insectisides and I am wondering if there is an organic or natural alternative to killing these things without having to worry about harming our environment anymore than it already is...I know that every single thing surrounding us is a chemical element of some sort. Any advice?? I can see the ants laughing at us making such a fuss.....Feel like I am going to war!!
Boric acid is available at the paharmacy counter, sometimes on the shelf next to the bandaids. Mix it 1/2 and 1/2 with sugar (or honey, syrup, or fat - if you're after fat eating ants - but I am not sure what the ratio is with liquids). That seems to be the most organic method of ridding yourself of an ant problem. I didn't know a premade solution was available, I've always used the sugar/boric acid mix, and sprinkled it on any hills in my yard for small problems. For big nests I use Grants Stakes. For the little piss ants (sorry, but that's what they are called) that invade the house I use Zonk It - the fly repellent made for horses and dogs - it smells like baby powder and leaves no slippery residue on surfaces! Never had a pest problem (black widders are way beyond a 'pest problem' in my book) in a trailer - knock wood.


Here's the low down on Zonk-it's primary ingredient: Permethrin
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Old 04-23-2004, 05:01 PM   #48
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Ants, ants, ants...........

Hahaha!!! Piss ants--that is ALL I have ever called them, but I do not know their correct species!! I have Boric acid under my sink but wasn't aware that they could be used for ants, so I will try that too! I am not paranoid about insecticides, I guess because when you have used them all of your life, you don't really think that much about it. I just hate the smells and messy clean up from the residue and thought if I could find something simpler, that it would be better...Thanks for the info!!!
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Old 04-24-2004, 09:44 PM   #49
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hee hee hee!! You make a good point--but does it kill ants!!??? The boric acid with syrup seems to be working, just don't know how infested the AS is in the walls.....They are probably partying in there!
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:27 PM   #50
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Found this, and it seems to answer all of our boric acid faqs:
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Boric acid is a slow-acting stomach poison. It is commonly formulated as a dust or liquid bait for
indoor control of ants. Boric acid powder can be purchased at any pharmacy.


Home-Made Boric Acid Baits. The recipe below can be prepared and used to eliminate nuisance ant species in indoor situations:

Choose the most attractive food material for the ant species present, e.g., peanut butter, mint apply jelly, corn syrup, etc.

Mix 1 part boric acid powder per 100 (or 50) parts bait material, e.g., 1 teaspoon per 2 (or 1) cups food material to make a 1% (or 2%) bait.

Do not make the bait concentration of boric acid too strong as this reduces its acceptance. The one percent bait is better than higher concentrations since it is less repellent to the ants and kills ants as efficiently. Keep the bait fresh and moist. Small quantities of bait can be placed in bottle caps or on pieces of tin foil, or injected into short (2 inch long) sections of soda straws using a squeeze bottle.
Place 20 to 30 small bait stations where ants have been seen or where attracted to baits as described in the previous section. Do not place stations in areas accessible to small children or pets. If the proper food is used and the bait is kept fresh, control should be achieved after 3 to 4 weeks for a careful, thorough baiting program.


For outdoor use, a boric acid solution can be made by mixing 1 tsp. boric acid, 3 Tbsp. sugar in 2 cups water, placing it in a container plugged with a cotton ball, and laying it on its side near an ant hill (from a quote from David Williams, USDA, Organic Gardening Magazine, March 1997).


However, organic gardeners feel that boric acid should not be used outdoors since it can be toxic to plants
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