68 22' Safari - Starting the Full Monty!

[soldiermedic]

Many of you have seen pictures of my rig already as I have been torn on what to do about several issues I have encountered. I have run across a rotted floor and frame separation as well as rusting through in several spots. Taking safety into mind, and the thought that if I redid the frame and floor I could add a non-existent grey tank, and not have to worry about frame issues for quite some time.

The shop offered to spray my fram in a zinc coating for an additional $34, but will not charge me anything if I want to supply other materiels. The frame will be fresh steel, so will POR be a good choice?

I also have uncovered a nice HUGE water heater, (I think it is galvanized). Would it be worth it to keep it, or get something lighter or possible an on-demand system. It is true that this will not be a restoration, and I will have a multitude of parts for sale if anyone needs them from a full rear bath, to the vinyl trim bead that goes around everything, door latches, etc.

I would really love to do a side bath/shower even if it meant splitting between the two sides. I really like the 19 and 20 foot bambi safari how they have the corner bath, but all calls to Aqua glas have been for naught today (maybe they are off for the Turkey Day). For a rear corner bath I would need to make that window in the rear smaller, or shift it to the left.

Any ideas?

Steve

Here are pics of what I have going on so far.

[Zeppelinium]

From the looks of it, that's the original water heater. I took a similar one out of a '64 Bambi. If it's the same one, it won't fit out through the external access. If you keep it, it will definitely be a big problem, soon, just about when you get the cabinets built around it.

I believe a modern Atwood fits the outside skin hole that's already there.

I saw an Excella this summer up in Port Townsend that had a bath split side to side. Very cool, even beautiful, but I don't think you have room.

Zep

[soldiermedic]

Just curious, but I saw this tank online at ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8662217&rd=1,1

Was wanting to know if I could replace the current black tank with this, and add another for grey water. It says there are only (2) 1.5 inch inlets. That doesnt seem large enough, but perhaps I could add a new hole. What do you all think?

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by soldiermedic

Just curious, but I saw this tank online at ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8662217&rd=1,1

Was wanting to know if I could replace the current black tank with this, and add another for grey water. It says there are only (2) 1.5 inch inlets. That doesnt seem large enough, but perhaps I could add a new hole. What do you all think?

That tank is more than twice the capacity of the original black water tank.

It would not fit without many changes to the trailer as well as to the tank.
The maximum that will fit under your trailer, is 51" X 24".

Secondly, it certainly would foul up the weight and balance of your trailer, even if half full.

Andy

[soldiermedic]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

That tank is more than twice the capacity of the original black water tank.

It would not fit without many changes to the trailer as well as to the tank.

Secondly, it certainly would foul up the weight and balance of your trailer, even if half full.

Andy

Well, the frame is going to be created from scratch, so a spot for the tank could easily be framed in. Andy, what size grey and black tank would be appropriate considering it never had a grey tank? I do not plan on living full time in this trailer, and will use it for weekend camping almost exclusively. I do not know how full either of the tanks would get, and they would definately get dumped before leaving the site.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by soldiermedic

Well, the frame is going to be created from scratch, so a spot for the tank could easily be framed in. Andy, what size grey and black tank would be appropriate considering it never had a grey tank? I do not plan on living full time in this trailer, and will use it for weekend camping almost exclusively. I do not know how full either of the tanks would get, and they would definately get dumped before leaving the site.

It's not the frame. But, it is the shell. The frame does not hold up the shell. The shell holds up the frame.

Therefore whatever frame you create, the shell will have to deal with it. Since the shell to floor attachments are so-so for your year, you would be looking for some serious rear end separation, even "without" a gray tank.

A gray tank can be added, but it must be a reasonable size and placed next to the axle.

The weight of a larger black tank than original, will still probably punish the rear end.

Also you say you would empty the tanks. That is not always possible, depending on where you may have the trailer.

Changing tank sizes will usually also have a negative effect on the weight and balance of the trailer, especially a single axle.

Andy

[soldiermedic]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

It's not the frame. But, it is the shell. The frame does not hold up the shell. The shell holds up the frame.

Therefore whatever frame you create, the shell will have to deal with it. Since the shell to floor attachments are so-so for your year, you would be looking for some serious rear end separation, even "without" a gray tank.

A gray tank can be added, but it must be a reasonable size and placed next to the axle.

The weight of a larger black tank than original, will still probably punish the rear end.

Also you say you would empty the tanks. That is not always possible, depending on where you may have the trailer.

Changing tank sizes will usually also have a negative effect on the weight and balance of the trailer, especially a single axle.

Andy

Never really thought of the aluminum shell holding the frame together, but I am not a structural engineer either. I wanted to be able to relocate the black tank so I am not confined to having the rear bath like I currently do. What size tank for grey water would be appropriate?

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by soldiermedic

Never really thought of the aluminum shell holding the frame together, but I am not a structural engineer either. I wanted to be able to relocate the black tank so I am not confined to having the rear bath like I currently do. What size tank for grey water would be appropriate?

If your going to redesign the floor plan, that's OK.

Then I would suggest that you place both tanks (gray and black) at the axle. You can place one forward and one rearward. I would suggest you place the black tank forward, since more than likely, it would not be empty. The gray tank, within reason, can be emptied in many places where it would be impossible to empty a black tank.

In that way, you would be somewhat adding to the tongue weight as opposed to reducing it.

A 20 gallon or so capacity for each tank, is within reason for your trailer.

The capacities you can add to the trailer design are limited for a number of reason.

How well can the shell take that extra weight?

Can the axle support that much weight?

Can the tires support that much weight?

What will happen when you hit a bump? Since you have a single axle trailer, the entire frame and shell pivots on the axle, therefore it can move vertically far more than you bargined for, possibly to the extent of causing a loss of control accident.

Perhaps, since you going to create a frame, you should consider modifying the suspension system to a tandem axle, especially since your also changing the floor plan.

That would eliminate many of the single axle pitfalls.

A carefully laid out drawing with weights included, would tell you where to place the two axles.

I know, I know, what next?

That's why many owners tread lightly when it comes to major changes.

Creating a monster, is not that difficult.

Creating a safe towing trailer, is not without many problems and a lot of hard work.

We go through that everytime we remanufacture someones trailer. Movie stars come up with designs that would frighten you. Those designs then, for safety reasons, are modified so that a safe towing trailer is delivered.

Sometimes they say "NO". Those are the times we say "thanks" but "no thanks."

That is the very reason Airstream will not sell an empty shell. They would have no control over the design.

As a very recent example is the changes we made for a very special 34 foot trailer we did for CNN, for the recent political uses.

Airstream said no for the shell, and then said no for the modifications. But they did send them to us, knowing we will not create a monster. The end result was absolutely perfect.

The trailer went from southern California to Washington state, and then to the east coast. The reports back on how the rig handled was outstanding (their term).

Use caution as you go and don't be in a hurry.

Ask for advice, if your not sure.

There are several people on this site that can help you.

Andy

[dmaiden]

Originally Posted by soldiermedic

I also have uncovered a nice HUGE water heater, (I think it is galvanized). Would it be worth it to keep it, or get something lighter or possible an on-demand system. It is true that this will not be a restoration, and I will have a multitude of parts for sale if anyone needs them from a full rear bath, to the vinyl trim bead that goes around everything, door latches, etc.

Steve,
Looks like the same tank that was in my 63 Flying Cloud. I ripped it out and am going to put in an on demand system. I figured it would just go out if it worked at all and I'd have more problems after redoing everything.

[scottanlily]

soldiermedic, the tank in your photo is a water heater made by bowen .
It usually will be garbage inside ,as in lots of calcium deposits and crud inside.
and corrosion .It will infact come out from the outside .On my 60trdwnd ,I installed a new 10 gallon suburban water heater ,the old Bowen is a 9 gallon .
The bowen came right out from the outside.Save the outside shrouds as they are valuable ,In our install ,with a little creative work ,I installed the original shrouds .some like the suburban ,or the atwood. The suburban is porcelin lined steel tank ,the atwood is aluminum tank .

Scott

[soldiermedic]

Originally Posted by scottanlily

It will infact come out from the outside .On my 60trdwnd ,I installed a new 10 gallon suburban water heater ,the old Bowen is a 9 gallon .
The bowen came right out from the outside.Save the outside shrouds as they are valuable ,In our install ,with a little creative work ,I installed the original shrouds .some like the suburban ,or the atwood. The suburban is porcelin lined steel tank ,the atwood is aluminum tank .

Scott

How the heck did you get this tank out from the outside? Do you have any pics of your install?

SM

[soldiermedic]

I am not an artist, so don't judge me. These are two floorplans that I have semi-placed together for my rebuild. They are not to scale. The fridge was originall on the exact opposite side from where it will be relocated to. I will most likely only be using it on electric unless I can install a new vent for it.

The shop picked up my trailer today and will beging the new frame and floor on Monday. I believe that they are moving the axel slightly furthur back to reduce the separation issues.

Comments?

[scottanlily]

hello soldiermedic, Well ,you know I thought i pulled it straight out after the exterior shrouds were unscrewed from the outside leaving the original opening
exposed ,but it doesn't seem like it would looking at your pics there .I could be not remembering it right ,thats scarey isn't it? I installed the new one from the inside ,but I might be mistaken on the removal .i may HAVE taken out the inside ,but I didn't think so .darn it .I apologize for mis information here
everyone ,and soldiermedic, as it does look like its too big .I don't hav photos
as I did it a few years ago ,before I joined the forums .I ducted the suburban
exhaust in much the same fashion as the original Bowen using some ducting
furnace shapes from OSH ,can be had at all home stores .The Atwood is close
in its configuration to the original bowen in its ducting .you have to " see "
it in your mind as you are devising the ducting .I added an upward duct from the suburban outlet with rivits (steel pop rivits)( not for the trailer skin )
and just followed the old design .I purchased 2 or 3 pieces of ducting shapes
and fabbed up what i wanted ,they were squareish in the type of shape, no round . It only matters if you are going for the original look as I did. I can pull
my shrouds and get you some photos if you want .

Scott

[scottanlily]

oh soldiermedic ,I caught that post on your axle placement change .If you move it farther back ,tongue weight will increase .why are you moving it back ? how about a tandem safari ? Its back pretty far on the single axle already.

Scott

[scottanlily]

Ok ,Im now thinking I may have unscrewed the front shroud of the old bowen possibly from the outside and inside unscrewing the retaining screws and separating the two parts ,that may be why Im thinking i took it out the front .After three years I guess its hard to remember .By shroud I mean the front retaining portion boxy shape holding the heater to the outside skin


Scott

[soldiermedic]

Scott,

The shop is only going to move it back if it is necessary for equal weight distribution. I had thought about a tandem safari, but that takes even more space out of the floorplan with a really big wheelwell instead of a single well. He is going to take all measurements and weights before he even draws up new plans. I like that he is taking alot of time in the process and design.

Thanks for clarification on the heater.

Steve

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by soldiermedic

I
The shop picked up my trailer today and will beging the new frame and floor on Monday. I believe that they are moving the axel slightly furthur back to reduce the separation issues.

Comments?

Moving the axle back 3 feet, won't stop the separation.

But it would tremendously increase the tongue weight.

I would suggest that you obtain a complete, before hand game plan from your service center, before you spend a dime.

It almost sounds like they know very little about what you can and cannot do to an Airstream.


Many of us here can help you, if you just ask.

Andy

[Jim & Susan]

Doc, here's an idea for you. Rather that moving axles (or adding axels), ask the shop if they can increase the thickness of the steel used in the new frame. It only takes a small increase in thinkness to gain much more stiffness in the frame. There's probems with this as well. As Andy has pointed out, the frame and the Aluminum shell work together. You would also probably need to get a (new) beefed up axle. Once you get your answer, let us know what they told you. It's an interesting idea you have there.

PS, I would have them POR-15 that new frame, also. Simply painting it is pretty much a waste of time. There are other options as well, but they get very expensive, very fast (powder-coating and electro-coating come to mind).

Jim

[scottanlily]

The separation issue isn't axle location ,its the floor rotting out especially
in the rear if you have the rear trunk .water can get in easily over the years
and along the top of the bumper/rear compartment extention also ,going under the floor. Once the new floor and everything is reattached ,the rear
floor/frame area needs to be sealed from water entry ,new door seals on the rear hatch if it has it .The year you have is especially prone to this .So Id
pass the info you find here on to your resto Rv guys so they have an idea as to what happens on these trailers if they aren't that familiar with them in
some respects .One thing that I haven't seen discussed that much at all is
these vintage coaches had light frames in the design and weight was a big
factor as well ,using heavier steel is ok but you'll add weight ,how much Im not certain ,would have to weigh the steel and calculate the weight increase.
You ,can make it stronger with more supports and such ,but the shell /frame
is suppose to be a unit type structure ,hence the shell and its attachment to
the floor /frame etc will give you that structural integrity as new . it won't
separate due to the axle location .Certainly the greater the distance from the rear of the trailer to the axle as in an 28 -32 + length does increase the tendency for the frame to want to droop ,tanks full and so on ,but again
the shell /floor /frame structure keeps it all tied together as a unit provided
its all in top condition .If they move the axle ,what will you do about the
outer skin wheel well position ,are they going to recut the skin back and reshape it for the wheel moving back ? Id not go that route ,itll get into a
can of worms messing with the skin /wheel opening and all .Just some thought to your project and the intended reworking of the trailer.


Scott

[soldiermedic]

Originally Posted by scottanlily

The separation issue isn't axle location ,its the floor rotting out especially in the rear if you have the rear trunk .water can get in easily over the years and along the top of the bumper/rear compartment extention also ,going under the floor. Once the new floor and everything is reattached ,the rear floor/frame area needs to be sealed from water entry ,new door seals on the rear hatch if it has it .The year you have is especially prone to this .So Id pass the info you find here on to your resto Rv guys so they have an idea as to what happens on these trailers if they aren't that familiar with them in some respects .One thing that I haven't seen discussed that much at all is these vintage coaches had light frames in the design and weight was a big factor as well ,using heavier steel is ok but you'll add weight ,how much Im not certain ,would have to weigh the steel and calculate the weight increase. You ,can make it stronger with more supports and such ,but the shell /frame is suppose to be a unit type structure ,hence the shell and its attachment to the floor /frame etc will give you that structural integrity as new . it won't separate due to the axle location .Certainly the greater the distance from the rear of the trailer to the axle as in an 28 -32 + length does increase the tendency for the frame to want to droop ,tanks full and so on ,but again the shell /floor /frame structure keeps it all tied together as a unit provided its all in top condition .If they move the axle ,what will you do about the outer skin wheel well position ,are they going to recut the skin back and reshape it for the heel moving back ? Id not go that route ,itll get into a can of worms messing with the skin /wheel opening and all .Just some thought to your project and the intended reworking of the trailer.


Scott

Scott, I truely do believe that the rear hatch and tail lights were what rotted my rear floor out. I hope to seal all that stuff once the shop finishes with it. This was one reason I opted for marine grade plywood for the new floor as water would take much longer to destroy it if I miss a leak. The shop has this thread, and several other threads from this forum bookmarked when it comes to frame repair/replacement including UWE, JCFERGUSON, ETC. I have to admit, I never really thought about having to redo the wheelwells, and will most likely keep them put to not have to deal with the skin issue. They were not going to be moved three feet like Andy's post above said, but more around 6-8 inches to help the floorplan. I also think that moving the black tank will still be a good idea to forward of the axel if I move the bathroom. All in all what you have to remember is that I am a soldier that is based 2.5 hours from my home where the airstream and my family are. I get one day each week to work on it (most of the time). I also only have one good arm since I was injured and had surgery just over a month ago. The price he is charging also include removing the remainder of the interior, and that means properly without the use of a sawzall. I also do not have the room or tools to take the shell off...and then there's that arm thing again. Andy stated that a shell of restore of the floor is proper due to the monocoque design, so I am having it done. Overall, the new steel will be stroger than the old, and it may be a little heavier, but many people modify their airstreams and deal with weight, so a professional trailer company should be able to do so as well.