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Old 11-22-2006, 04:55 PM   #1
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68 22' Safari - Starting the Full Monty!

Many of you have seen pictures of my rig already as I have been torn on what to do about several issues I have encountered. I have run across a rotted floor and frame separation as well as rusting through in several spots. Taking safety into mind, and the thought that if I redid the frame and floor I could add a non-existent grey tank, and not have to worry about frame issues for quite some time.

The shop offered to spray my fram in a zinc coating for an additional $34, but will not charge me anything if I want to supply other materiels. The frame will be fresh steel, so will POR be a good choice?

I also have uncovered a nice HUGE water heater, (I think it is galvanized). Would it be worth it to keep it, or get something lighter or possible an on-demand system. It is true that this will not be a restoration, and I will have a multitude of parts for sale if anyone needs them from a full rear bath, to the vinyl trim bead that goes around everything, door latches, etc.

I would really love to do a side bath/shower even if it meant splitting between the two sides. I really like the 19 and 20 foot bambi safari how they have the corner bath, but all calls to Aqua glas have been for naught today (maybe they are off for the Turkey Day). For a rear corner bath I would need to make that window in the rear smaller, or shift it to the left.

Any ideas?

Steve

Here are pics of what I have going on so far.
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Old 11-22-2006, 05:34 PM   #2
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From the looks of it, that's the original water heater. I took a similar one out of a '64 Bambi. If it's the same one, it won't fit out through the external access. If you keep it, it will definitely be a big problem, soon, just about when you get the cabinets built around it.

I believe a modern Atwood fits the outside skin hole that's already there.

I saw an Excella this summer up in Port Townsend that had a bath split side to side. Very cool, even beautiful, but I don't think you have room.

Zep
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Old 11-22-2006, 06:02 PM   #3
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Grey and black water

Just curious, but I saw this tank online at ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8662217&rd=1,1

Was wanting to know if I could replace the current black tank with this, and add another for grey water. It says there are only (2) 1.5 inch inlets. That doesnt seem large enough, but perhaps I could add a new hole. What do you all think?
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Old 11-22-2006, 06:07 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soldiermedic
Just curious, but I saw this tank online at ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8662217&rd=1,1

Was wanting to know if I could replace the current black tank with this, and add another for grey water. It says there are only (2) 1.5 inch inlets. That doesnt seem large enough, but perhaps I could add a new hole. What do you all think?
That tank is more than twice the capacity of the original black water tank.

It would not fit without many changes to the trailer as well as to the tank.
The maximum that will fit under your trailer, is 51" X 24".

Secondly, it certainly would foul up the weight and balance of your trailer, even if half full.

Andy
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Old 11-22-2006, 06:13 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
That tank is more than twice the capacity of the original black water tank.

It would not fit without many changes to the trailer as well as to the tank.

Secondly, it certainly would foul up the weight and balance of your trailer, even if half full.

Andy
Well, the frame is going to be created from scratch, so a spot for the tank could easily be framed in. Andy, what size grey and black tank would be appropriate considering it never had a grey tank? I do not plan on living full time in this trailer, and will use it for weekend camping almost exclusively. I do not know how full either of the tanks would get, and they would definately get dumped before leaving the site.
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Old 11-22-2006, 06:24 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by soldiermedic
Well, the frame is going to be created from scratch, so a spot for the tank could easily be framed in. Andy, what size grey and black tank would be appropriate considering it never had a grey tank? I do not plan on living full time in this trailer, and will use it for weekend camping almost exclusively. I do not know how full either of the tanks would get, and they would definately get dumped before leaving the site.
It's not the frame. But, it is the shell. The frame does not hold up the shell. The shell holds up the frame.

Therefore whatever frame you create, the shell will have to deal with it. Since the shell to floor attachments are so-so for your year, you would be looking for some serious rear end separation, even "without" a gray tank.

A gray tank can be added, but it must be a reasonable size and placed next to the axle.

The weight of a larger black tank than original, will still probably punish the rear end.

Also you say you would empty the tanks. That is not always possible, depending on where you may have the trailer.

Changing tank sizes will usually also have a negative effect on the weight and balance of the trailer, especially a single axle.

Andy
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Old 11-22-2006, 06:29 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
It's not the frame. But, it is the shell. The frame does not hold up the shell. The shell holds up the frame.

Therefore whatever frame you create, the shell will have to deal with it. Since the shell to floor attachments are so-so for your year, you would be looking for some serious rear end separation, even "without" a gray tank.

A gray tank can be added, but it must be a reasonable size and placed next to the axle.

The weight of a larger black tank than original, will still probably punish the rear end.

Also you say you would empty the tanks. That is not always possible, depending on where you may have the trailer.

Changing tank sizes will usually also have a negative effect on the weight and balance of the trailer, especially a single axle.

Andy
Never really thought of the aluminum shell holding the frame together, but I am not a structural engineer either. I wanted to be able to relocate the black tank so I am not confined to having the rear bath like I currently do. What size tank for grey water would be appropriate?
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Old 11-22-2006, 06:59 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soldiermedic
Never really thought of the aluminum shell holding the frame together, but I am not a structural engineer either. I wanted to be able to relocate the black tank so I am not confined to having the rear bath like I currently do. What size tank for grey water would be appropriate?
If your going to redesign the floor plan, that's OK.

Then I would suggest that you place both tanks (gray and black) at the axle. You can place one forward and one rearward. I would suggest you place the black tank forward, since more than likely, it would not be empty. The gray tank, within reason, can be emptied in many places where it would be impossible to empty a black tank.

In that way, you would be somewhat adding to the tongue weight as opposed to reducing it.

A 20 gallon or so capacity for each tank, is within reason for your trailer.

The capacities you can add to the trailer design are limited for a number of reason.

How well can the shell take that extra weight?

Can the axle support that much weight?

Can the tires support that much weight?

What will happen when you hit a bump? Since you have a single axle trailer, the entire frame and shell pivots on the axle, therefore it can move vertically far more than you bargined for, possibly to the extent of causing a loss of control accident.

Perhaps, since you going to create a frame, you should consider modifying the suspension system to a tandem axle, especially since your also changing the floor plan.

That would eliminate many of the single axle pitfalls.

A carefully laid out drawing with weights included, would tell you where to place the two axles.

I know, I know, what next?

That's why many owners tread lightly when it comes to major changes.

Creating a monster, is not that difficult.

Creating a safe towing trailer, is not without many problems and a lot of hard work.

We go through that everytime we remanufacture someones trailer. Movie stars come up with designs that would frighten you. Those designs then, for safety reasons, are modified so that a safe towing trailer is delivered.

Sometimes they say "NO". Those are the times we say "thanks" but "no thanks."

That is the very reason Airstream will not sell an empty shell. They would have no control over the design.

As a very recent example is the changes we made for a very special 34 foot trailer we did for CNN, for the recent political uses.

Airstream said no for the shell, and then said no for the modifications. But they did send them to us, knowing we will not create a monster. The end result was absolutely perfect.

The trailer went from southern California to Washington state, and then to the east coast. The reports back on how the rig handled was outstanding (their term).

Use caution as you go and don't be in a hurry.

Ask for advice, if your not sure.

There are several people on this site that can help you.

Andy
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Old 11-22-2006, 08:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soldiermedic
I also have uncovered a nice HUGE water heater, (I think it is galvanized). Would it be worth it to keep it, or get something lighter or possible an on-demand system. It is true that this will not be a restoration, and I will have a multitude of parts for sale if anyone needs them from a full rear bath, to the vinyl trim bead that goes around everything, door latches, etc.
Steve,
Looks like the same tank that was in my 63 Flying Cloud. I ripped it out and am going to put in an on demand system. I figured it would just go out if it worked at all and I'd have more problems after redoing everything.
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Old 11-22-2006, 08:41 PM   #10
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soldiermedic, the tank in your photo is a water heater made by bowen .
It usually will be garbage inside ,as in lots of calcium deposits and crud inside.
and corrosion .It will infact come out from the outside .On my 60trdwnd ,I installed a new 10 gallon suburban water heater ,the old Bowen is a 9 gallon .
The bowen came right out from the outside.Save the outside shrouds as they are valuable ,In our install ,with a little creative work ,I installed the original shrouds .some like the suburban ,or the atwood. The suburban is porcelin lined steel tank ,the atwood is aluminum tank .

Scott
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Old 11-22-2006, 09:00 PM   #11
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It will infact come out from the outside .On my 60trdwnd ,I installed a new 10 gallon suburban water heater ,the old Bowen is a 9 gallon .
The bowen came right out from the outside.Save the outside shrouds as they are valuable ,In our install ,with a little creative work ,I installed the original shrouds .some like the suburban ,or the atwood. The suburban is porcelin lined steel tank ,the atwood is aluminum tank .

Scott
How the heck did you get this tank out from the outside? Do you have any pics of your install?

SM
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Old 11-25-2006, 08:04 PM   #12
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For your consideration...two floorplans

I am not an artist, so don't judge me. These are two floorplans that I have semi-placed together for my rebuild. They are not to scale. The fridge was originall on the exact opposite side from where it will be relocated to. I will most likely only be using it on electric unless I can install a new vent for it.

The shop picked up my trailer today and will beging the new frame and floor on Monday. I believe that they are moving the axel slightly furthur back to reduce the separation issues.

Comments?
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Old 11-25-2006, 11:00 PM   #13
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hello soldiermedic, Well ,you know I thought i pulled it straight out after the exterior shrouds were unscrewed from the outside leaving the original opening
exposed ,but it doesn't seem like it would looking at your pics there .I could be not remembering it right ,thats scarey isn't it? I installed the new one from the inside ,but I might be mistaken on the removal .i may HAVE taken out the inside ,but I didn't think so .darn it .I apologize for mis information here
everyone ,and soldiermedic, as it does look like its too big .I don't hav photos
as I did it a few years ago ,before I joined the forums .I ducted the suburban
exhaust in much the same fashion as the original Bowen using some ducting
furnace shapes from OSH ,can be had at all home stores .The Atwood is close
in its configuration to the original bowen in its ducting .you have to " see "
it in your mind as you are devising the ducting .I added an upward duct from the suburban outlet with rivits (steel pop rivits)( not for the trailer skin )
and just followed the old design .I purchased 2 or 3 pieces of ducting shapes
and fabbed up what i wanted ,they were squareish in the type of shape, no round . It only matters if you are going for the original look as I did. I can pull
my shrouds and get you some photos if you want .

Scott
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Old 11-25-2006, 11:04 PM   #14
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oh soldiermedic ,I caught that post on your axle placement change .If you move it farther back ,tongue weight will increase .why are you moving it back ? how about a tandem safari ? Its back pretty far on the single axle already.

Scott
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