Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-27-2016, 01:44 PM   #1
Rivet Master
 
Rgentum's Avatar
 
2016 27' Flying Cloud
Olympia , Washington
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 618
Winterizing with Air: Nothing Happens!!!

I want to winterize a 2016 FC 27 FB with air pressure.

What I've done:
1. Opened the three petcocks under the trailer, drained all the water from each, & closed the petcocks.
2. Drained the hot water heater by removing its anode rod & fastened the anode rod back into it & confirmed that the pressure relief valve is closed.
3. Turned the three valves on the back of the hot water heater so that the water supply bypasses the heater.
4. Installed a quick-connect air fitting to the city water supply inlet on the outside of the trailer.
5. Fastened to that fitting the hose from the air compressor.
6. Turned on the compressor & set it to 50 psi.
7. Confirmed that the water pump is turned off.
8. Gone inside the trailer & opened then closed the cold & then the hot water valves of the kitchen sink, bathroom sink, & shower, one at a time.

And, drum roll: Nothing happens. No water comes out of the water pipes. No air comes out of the water pipes. The air from the compressor seems to be going somewhere; for example, the air pressure from the compressor drops from 50 to approx. 20 psi. Where's the air going???

What am I missing so that I can get the air to evacuate the water from the pipes???
__________________
Richard Wills, Olympia, WA --- WBCCI 8873, WL7Z
"Aurum": 2018 Ram/Cummins 3500
"Argentum": 2016 AS FC 27 FB
RIP "BigDog": M Harlequin Great Dane, 150 lb
"St. Rocco": M Black Great Dane, 150 lb
Rgentum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 01:50 PM   #2
Site Team
 
wulfraat's Avatar

 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,555
Images: 1
Drain the hot water heater then close it back up. Keep everything else closed - you need to let pressure build up.

Once you have a good 60 psi in the entire system go faucet by faucet and let the water come out. same for the shower.

Once you have that done use the valves by the hot water heater to let out more water... then do your low point drains.

Rinse and repeat. Takes me about 8-10 tanks of air from my compressor to get everything out to my satisfaction. The key is letting the pressure build up unless you have a commercial 100+ gallon compressor reservoir.
wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 01:57 PM   #3
Rivet Master
 
Wingeezer's Avatar
 
2005 30' Classic
Burlington , Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,743
That's certainly strange! Don't know what to suggest other than a couple of things that are pretty obvious and not likely the answer!

When the pressure dropped from 50 to 20, does the compressor continue to run? If so, it seems you must be able to hear water and or air escaping somehwere I would think.

In the off chance that the trailer is new to you, Is it possible that you have connected to the black tank back flush hose instead of the city water inlet?

Is it possible that the outside water faucet on your trailer is open? Not likely.

Could there be a problem with an internal check valve and air/water is being forced into your fresh water tank?

Don't know what else to suggest unless there is a problem with the backflow prevention valve on the water inlet - or the pipes are already frozen (Kidding!)

I'm sure you will find it - and be interested to hear what you do find, I winterise this way each year with a 2hp 17 gallon compressor, (then add antifreeze) and have never had any issues like this.

Brian.
__________________
Brian & Connie Mitchell

2005 Classic 30'
Hensley Arrow / Centramatics
2008 GMC Sierra SLT 2500HD,4x4,Crew Cab, Diesel, Leer cap.
Wingeezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 02:34 PM   #4
4 Rivet Member
 
1991 25' Excella
Stanfield , Oregon
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 317
Pull your water pump inlet fitting and see if the air is passing threw the check valve then going through your pump, you'll need to blow it out anyways.
SpletKay06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 02:55 PM   #5
Rivet Master
 
Caffeinated's Avatar
 
2015 27' Flying Cloud
Newberg , Oregon
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,052
I have a 2015 version of your trailer, but it seems there are some differences, which may or may not apply. I have the Atwood water heater. With a nylon nut to drain the water from, no anode Rod. In the bathroom under the sink, there is a white pex water line on the floor with a black plastic t handle. It opens and closes a low point drain. To air out your water lines that handle needs to be closed. Also, to bypass my hot water heater, there is one valve only, just above the aforementioned pex line in the bathroom. I'm thinking maybe you left a line open, that's why you are getting no water? Even with my low pressure Viaair 12 volt compressor I got lots of water out. And you will want to make sure most all the water is out of your hot water heater, or possibly face a large expense come spring. After the water stopped coming out fo the nylon nut hole, I made a syphon and got quite a bit more out. Then I put some antifreeze in there just to be sure. Good luck.

Mike

Ps, customer service at AS will email you a picture of your plumbing layout, just give them a call.
Caffeinated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 03:20 PM   #6
Rivet Master
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor , New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgentum View Post
. . .
What am I missing so that I can get the air to evacuate the water from the pipes???
I would reduce the air compressor pressure to 30# PSI, and see what happens. [50 is too high for a safety margin, anyway, given the inconsistent QC during AS's assembly process IMO.] Your water pressure regulator at the city water intake may be closing with 50# PSI.

The recent suggestion about the check valve at the pump may be another possibility, although if it is stuck open, it would let the air back into the fresh water tank IMO, the drain valve for which should be left open through all of the winterization process IMO. If the air is following this path, you should get air coming out of the tank's drain valve.

Are your bypass valves done correctly at the water heater? If not the missing drain valve and/or the pressure blow-off valve at the top may be open? For now I would let the air pressure fill the water heater [drain plug in, and blow-off valve closed], so that you can use this air pressure to clear the hot water lines in all of the trailer. You can deal with the bypass valves for antifreeze later. [although using AF is totally unnecessary IMO, but that is a separate discussion]

Try leaving the compressor running until it shuts off. You should hear air leaking from someplace.

If the air compressor does not turn off, you should also be able to discern an air leak someplace if you sit inside the trailer and close all the doors and windows (assuming the compressor is far away, and thus relatively quiet).

Please report back, as there is probably a simple solution for the first step anyway.

Good luck!

Peter

PS -- Have you confirmed the air hose is OK and open, by putting a blow nozzle on its end, before you hook up to the trailer? Dumb question maybe, but stranger things have happened IMO. Measure twice, cut once.
OTRA15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 05:04 PM   #7
Rivet Master
 
gandttimes's Avatar
 
2014 25' FB International
2007 20' Safari SE
2005 19' Safari
Qualicum Beach , British Columbia
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caffeinated View Post
I have a 2015 version of your trailer, but it seems there are some differences, which may or may not apply. I have the Atwood water heater. With a nylon nut to drain the water from, no anode Rod. In the bathroom under the sink, there is a white pex water line on the floor with a black plastic t handle. It opens and closes a low point drain. To air out your water lines that handle needs to be closed. Also, to bypass my hot water heater, there is one valve only, just above the aforementioned pex line in the bathroom. I'm thinking maybe you left a line open, that's why you are getting no water? Even with my low pressure Viaair 12 volt compressor I got lots of water out. And you will want to make sure most all the water is out of your hot water heater, or possibly face a large expense come spring. After the water stopped coming out fo the nylon nut hole, I made a syphon and got quite a bit more out. Then I put some antifreeze in there just to be sure. Good luck.

Mike
Just did my 2014 25FB. Same as Caffienated. Nylon nut in water tank, and only one valve in the bypass. If you have that right everything should work. Was warned not to use more than 40 lbs. no need to snug up the nylon nut as the bypass takes care of that.
Sorry, can't think why yours is not working other than a leak in the air line before it enters the fresh water inlet.
Silly question, but it is the fresh water inlet and not the black tank flush that you are hooked up to?


George
gandttimes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 05:37 PM   #8
Rivet Master

 
2007 22' International CCD
Corona , California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,180
Not a silly question, IMHO. It's easy to confuse the fresh water inlet with the black tank flush. There are stories about overflowing the black tank by doing that with water.....


Sent from my pocket Internet using Airstream Forums
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
rmkrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 11:32 AM   #9
Rivet Master
 
kdickinson's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
Taos , New Mexico
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 566
If that much air is passing right through your system you should be able to hear where it is exiting. If you are using a 5 gallon compressor then it could be that it cannot recharge fast enough to pressurize the system consistently - I have a 33 gallon which works fine for my size trailer. You should have the system set up as if you are going to use it camping and the compressor should be feeding air (I use 12 psi) into the city water connection for the trailer. You know this - but you need to buy an adapter which quick connects to your compressor on one end and screws into your water supply like your water hose does on the other end. Close everything up including all the faucets and the water heater and then faucet by faucet open both hot and cold and you should mostly have air coming out now that you've drained the system ahead of time. your water heater probably has a by-pass valve and you can close that and leave the water heater open

remember to do the same for the head, the shower, and the water wand at the head as they all have water in them which needs to be displaced by air. Then make sure your water pump and fresh water tank are purged and empty. Once you get the hang of it it takes about 10 minutes. 1-2 cups of antifreeze in each drain and you are good to go - I also put 1 gallon in the holding tank (mine just has one holding tank)
kdickinson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 02:02 PM   #10
Rivet Master
 
JimGolden's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
1977 31' Excella 500
Berkeley Springs , West Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,637
Images: 7
Bypass Valves

I used to just blow mine out with air but after installing a Dometic Sealand Traveler toilet, the design of the valve is such that air won't get all the water out. It froze and blew the valve. Those valves are $40 and you don't find them at every campground like you can for a Thetford.... I installed a bypass valve on the water heater. And, I installed an additional feed valve at the water pump. I can winterize the entire camper with about 1.5 gallons of RV antifreeze now. I highly recommend this. Use the red stuff that you can drink. Two gallons is plenty. Before I installed the bypass valve, it took a LOT of RV antifreeze as I basically had to fill the water heater before I could distribute it to the sinks, tub, toilet, etc. Now, I run a quart or so into the water heater, then bypass it. Once I see a good red stream coming out from every sink, the shower, and fill the toilet with red RV antifreeze, I'm good. No problems since. After doing this, I don't use the compressed air method at all anymore. See ya on the road,
__________________
- Jim
JimGolden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 03:20 PM   #11
Rivet Master
 
CruizinDux's Avatar
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Washington , Missouri
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgentum View Post
5. Fastened to that fitting the hose from the air compressor.
6. Turned on the compressor & set it to 50 psi.
7. Confirmed that the water pump is turned off.
8. Gone inside the trailer & opened then closed the cold & then the hot water valves of the kitchen sink, bathroom sink, & shower, one at a time.
FWIW, I never pressure the AS pex system until I have opened a faucet, LP drain or equivalent. To me it's asking for trouble.

Since my CW connection is right next to the ext shower, I open the H/C & remove the handle, then attach the quick connect to the CW with the compressor (Rigid 5 gal dual tank) set to 40 lbs. Since the compressor isn't always where I can see/quickly adjust the dial, I also added an inline adjustable shutoff valve w/gauge at the CW QC. That gives me the option to dial pressure down quickly, if needed. Note prior to the Rigid I used a 12VDC and a 10VAC infiltrators and they also worked fine...it just took much longer.

I don't use AF for winterization, only air. My anal side requires I run thru the winterization process a second time. Sometimes while alternating to the F/R nose up/down with LP drains procedure, I let the compressor run for a while as I believe it helps to more complete dry out the lines and helps me sleep on my first summerization trip.

Bob
CruizinDux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 03:34 PM   #12
PKI
Rivet Master
 
PKI's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek , California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,952
Hmmm.....we used a very small compressor and were reasonably successful. We found that connecting a section of fresh water hose gave us a storage volume for air and that helped the small compressor do it's job. However, if you are seeing no results at all, something is blocked, something is open, something is being missed. Nice opportunity to trace out the plumbing. Because we thought the job should be easier, we purchased a larger compressor and found it to work better.

Possible issues:

Connected to black water flush - I like this suggestion. I was recently told that the older trailers had the flush on the top, while ours is the bottom one. Certainly some opportunity for confusion is possible.

Check valve on the fresh water circuit not holding. Understand that over pressure on the fresh water tank and fill can damage the tank.

Fresh water filter - is it still in place? Is the circuit blocked by a cap/plug? Is the filter blocking air flow?

Not enough pressure from the compressor to move what water is left out of the faucets. Open the drain valves and see what you get. That makes gravity your friend.

What ever you find, let us know.

Proceed with caution and don't apply excessive pressure.

Good luck with the investigation. Pat
PKI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 07:19 PM   #13
Rivet Master
 
Moflash's Avatar
 
2007 28' International CCD
Springfield , Missouri
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,423
Winterizing with Air: Nothing Happens!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CruizinDux View Post
FWIW, I never pressure the AS pex system until I have opened a faucet, LP drain or equivalent. To me it's asking for trouble.

Since my CW connection is right next to the ext shower, I open the H/C & remove the handle, then attach the quick connect to the CW with the compressor (Rigid 5 gal dual tank) set to 40 lbs. Since the compressor isn't always where I can see/quickly adjust the dial, I also added an inline adjustable shutoff valve w/gauge at the CW QC. That gives me the option to dial pressure down quickly, if needed. Note prior to the Rigid I used a 12VDC and a 10VAC infiltrators and they also worked fine...it just took much longer.

I don't use AF for winterization, only air. My anal side requires I run thru the winterization process a second time. Sometimes while alternating to the F/R nose up/down with LP drains procedure, I let the compressor run for a while as I believe it helps to more complete dry out the lines and helps me sleep on my first summerization trip.

Bob

Please tell us the difference in 30lbs of air pressure and 30 lbs of water pressure in relationship to a Pex system.Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums
Moflash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 09:48 PM   #14
Rivet Master
 
CruizinDux's Avatar
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Washington , Missouri
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflash View Post
Please tell us the difference in 30lbs of air pressure and 30 lbs of water pressure in relationship to a Pex system.Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums
I suspect none. However IMO there is only a down side to creating pressure in a system when none is needed.

A lot of things can go wrong...with the compressor's pressure regulator, fittings, A/S valves, distractions...senior moments. Why pressure up a closed system if you're trying to push the water out? Like air vs AF, it is my personal preference.

I also use a pressure regulator on CW and when winterizing the BW flush...why take unnecessary risks. I haven't noticed any recent forums comments re failed plumbing fittings, but then again it's not spring time and time to blow off the snow and summerize for the year. LoL
CruizinDux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 11:25 PM   #15
Site Team
 
wulfraat's Avatar

 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,555
Images: 1
Winterizing with Air: Nothing Happens!!!

You cannot get all the water out of an airstream plumbing system using gravity alone. You need to pressurize with air or pump rv antifreeze through the system to properly winterize.

If you choose not to use rv antifreeze then not using air pressure to fully drain the lines is asking for trouble.

Unless you have a commercial sized air compressor reservoir you cannot push enough air volume through the system without first allowing the system to pressurize.

The plumbing standards used in a late model airstream can easily handle over 100 psi. Using 50 psi of air pressure is nothing the pex system cannot handle (was designed to sustain that pressure and more)
wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2016, 04:05 AM   #16
Rivet Master
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor , New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by wulfraat View Post
. . .
Unless you have a commercial sized air compressor reservoir you cannot push enough air volume through the system without first allowing the system to pressurize.
. . .
I must respectfully disagree.

If you open only one faucet/drain at a time, and go around the trailer twice, or even thrice if necessary, you can eliminate all water from all lines with only 30# PSI, a lower pressure which makes allowances for poor AS quality control during assembly.

The pump and supply line from the fresh water tank require manual procedures not germane right now.

People get into an antifreeze frenzy, in my opinion, mainly because they do not understand the mechanics of our trailers, which are basically little houses with very simple plumbing systems. Ignorance of the actual as-built details lets fear creep into the winterization process.

Having winterized our 25' dozens of times in the 90's -- and having had to take apart the bed to get to a cracked elbow behind the water heater, due to an incomplete hasty on-the-road winterization in Abilene TX [will never forget that blizzard which whacked us heading to San Diego!] -- plus winterizing the new FC20 a few times last year -- please be assured that it is entirely possible to drain all water from your AS using air pressure alone, and to avoid using antifreeze.

Been there, done that.

OTRA15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2016, 04:32 AM   #17
Rivet Master
 
paiceman's Avatar
 
2020 28' Flying Cloud
Upper St Clair , Pennsylvania
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,943
Images: 1
This Airstream we have now is our forth. I have always pressurized our system to winterize with 60#, which is what the factory uses if you take your unit there. Every valve, every opening needs to be closed and hot water tank by passed in order to pressurize. Then as stated one at a time the facets are opened, the pressure is let out and that facet is closed and system pressurizes again. Needs a number of attempts to get all the water out.

This year with a 2017 Classic and new base board hot water system while at the factory they told me to winterize the same way. But in discussions with Alde, the manufacturer of the hot water and heat system, they recommend blowing the system out including the hot water boiler jacket and then pumping rv anit-freeze thru the system. So, this is what we did.

Bud
__________________
2020 28' Twin Flying Cloud
2021 F350 6.7 King Ranch
USAF Master Training Instructor (TI) & (MTI)- 68-72
Volunteer K9 Rehabilitator & Trainer
paiceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2016, 07:17 AM   #18
Site Team
 
wulfraat's Avatar

 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,555
Images: 1
What paiceman said
wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2016, 08:50 AM   #19
Rivet Master
 
HowieE's Avatar
 
1991 34' Excella
Princeton , New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,070
Images: 12
4. Installed a quick-connect air fitting to the city water supply inlet on the outside of the trailer.

It is almost impossible to move that much air through the trailer and not hear it escaping.

There has been a question if you accidentally hooked the air up to the black water flush connection. If so the air would be escaping via the vent pipe on the roof and most likely not producing detectable sound.

Once you solve this issue you need only pass air through a given fixture until air and water droplets are come out. You do not need to remove 100% of the water. I would not just apply a constant pressure to the system while purging it. I apply air pulses of 2 or 3 second duration while a faucet is open having someone watch it. The reason to pulse the air is to allow water to recollect at a low point between each pulse and thus be moved when next pulsed. A constant air flow runs the risk of just flow past water at a low point leaving water in the system.

If you have a water filter under the kitchen sink don't forget to remove the canister and install the bypass cap before starting as air will not empty it.

If you have reasonable access to the pump to put the antifreeze into the system you should be able to winterize in about 15 minutes.


__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles

HowieE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2016, 09:50 AM   #20
Rivet Master
 
CruizinDux's Avatar
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Washington , Missouri
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,589
I agree with ORTA15 re the successful use use of air pressure and not requiring the use of AF. Granted my experience is much more limited than many on the forums but the 5 or so winterization's have so far been successful.

I also agree with HowieE in regards the need/use of pulsing the faucets and LP drains. I just prefer to tart with one open valve and then pressure up once I'm inside and have more control as opposed to closing everything letting it pressure and go inside to initiate the winterization. I also prefer to once the valves have been purged to nose up/nose down with the LP's letting the compressor run for a few minutes. IMO it serves to dry out the lines, and eliminate as much of the moisture that as possible, albeit probably not 100%.

Bob
CruizinDux is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What happens/how do I know holding tank is full? nmeyer Waste Systems, Tanks & Totes 11 10-17-2010 05:18 AM
Note; Read forum before this happens to you! 2wheelin General Repair Forum 38 02-06-2010 08:14 AM
Good news happens! camperski Our Community 6 10-27-2009 01:41 PM
Turn The Key And Nothing Happens Chaplain Kent Mechanics Corner - Engines, Transmission & More... 102 04-20-2009 07:02 AM
Ouch! What happens when an Argosy MH meets the back of a dump truck 66TradeWind Airstream Motorhome Forums 13 08-12-2002 02:49 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.