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Old 10-26-2016, 08:05 PM   #1
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Winterizing: why not suck out the water at the low point drains?

Greetings,
I've read through the owners manual and newbies guide and also applied a few doses of compressed air to the system trying to learn how to drain and winterize. I've gotten alternating opinions from two dealers and three technicians north and south as to the necessity of filling the lines with RV anti-freeze. I've reached these conclusions: the owners manual does not agree with the equipment and arrangement of my 2016 26U. Even among the pros there is considerable disagreement on how to winterize the system.

I ran out of time, hired it done, and had the lines embalmed with RV-AF. But I want to do this myself. To that end I've got two questions I'd like to try out on the forum:
1) If asked, can/will Airstream provide me with an “as built” schematic of my AS for plumbing?
2) Rather than blowing water up and out with a compressor, why not put a wet vacuum on the low-point drain, open the various faucets one at a time, and suck out the system? This seems less likely to leave residual water in the tubes and junctions. But why then does everybody agree on blowing it?
AWCHIEF, on another thread recommended, this video which confirmed much of what I understood. However, my issue is blowing air from the city water port, which done per the instructions clearly leaves water in the line.

Thanks
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Old 10-26-2016, 09:03 PM   #2
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You simply cannot get enough vacuum to suck the water out of the lines.
A combination of blowing the lines out with compressed air (40 psi) and using AF in the traps is the way to go IMO.
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Old 10-26-2016, 09:09 PM   #3
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looks like he did a pi$$ poor job blowing out the water lines.
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Old 10-26-2016, 09:28 PM   #4
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If you able to create a perfect vacuum on the system, that would be about a 14.7 psi differential depending on elevation. On the other hand, using a compressor you can apply 40 psi to the system thus moving much more air. Would a differntial of 14 psi be enough to get out all the water, I do not know. I guess you could try the vacuum first then apply compressed air and see if more water is expelled.

Good question!

Ron
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Old 10-26-2016, 09:32 PM   #5
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Your vacuum question is interesting. A lot of folks use a shop vac to remove water from their boat's plumbing and tanks. Never tried it and have not heard anyone talk about using that method on the AS. So, we'll keep an ear to this thread to see if info is posted by someone in the know. Pat
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Old 10-26-2016, 09:54 PM   #6
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How do you plan on cleaning out your gray/black flush line with a vacuum?
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Old 10-27-2016, 08:17 AM   #7
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Why reinvent the wheel?

Using compressed air requires one connection at the city water intake port. Our trailer has 4 low point drains and the water heater drain plug, all of which can be handled by a gravity drain first then minimal compressed air work. Would the plan be to hook up the vacuum (air-tight connection?) to the 4 low point drains, and the water heater?

I would not trust a vacuum to remove water from the various low plumbing runs hidden who knows where. Plus Airstream has not approved this method, so any damage would be hard to fix under warranty IMO.

40 PSI done twice in a rotation around the trailer, faucet-by-faucet, drain-by-drain, etc. is a reassuring process because you can see when the water drops change to air only. No such reassurance is possible using a vacuum, unless I guess you add a clear section of pipe to watch the nature of what is being sucked.



Analysis paralysis setting in . . .

Good luck!

Peter
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Old 10-27-2016, 08:22 AM   #8
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Run out of time? Life is short, it takes maybe 20 minutes to blow out all lines, while drinking coffee, pump the anti freeze in, pour some in each drain...more coffee you're done.
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Old 10-27-2016, 08:29 AM   #9
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Coffee ?
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Old 10-27-2016, 08:29 AM   #10
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neither will reach your water pump, which is what these arguments always leave out.

3 times I've had to replace the pressure switch on mine, because a tiny drop of water inside freezes and pushes it away from the pump housing, causing the thin plastic around the connection points to crack.

(first time, I didn't know any better; second time, I procrastinated and didn't winterize in time; 3rd time: well, I dis-assembled the trailer for a complete reno, removed all of the plumbing...but left the pump sitting in the trailer over the winter--it cracked again!).

Maybe this particular pump is just a bad design, because I don't see anyone else grumping about it. But anyway, pumping AF through the lines prevents the problem, because you use the pump to do it. Takes less than 10 minutes and 1 1/2 gallons of AF to do it.
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Old 10-27-2016, 10:22 AM   #11
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I agree with what others have said about use of vacuum.

Here in Canada, I generally do both - I use a good sized compressor at home to bow out the lines via an adapter on the fresh water inlet, and then I also disconnect the suction line from the pump and fill the system (except of course the HW tank which I bypass and drain)
with antifreeze.

Probably this is a "Belt and braces" approach and I could get by fine without the antifreeze and just blow the lines, but I have read that it is not impossible that blowing the lines may still leave some residual water within the system that could then accumulate at some point within the system and result in freezing damage - does get pretty cool up here for an extended period!

So this is why I do both air + antifreeze - just gives me more peace of mind dueing the cold winter nights for the price of a gallon and a half of antifreeze and a little more time!

The only time I have ever had a problem was the first winter we owned the trailer - bought used.

The previous owner had tucked the toilet rinse hose well away behind the toilet and I didn't even know it existed. First use of the trailer in the Spring and water all over the floor!

$40 or so for a replacement hose and spray head for the toilet!


There are quite a few little points to remember when winterising. a trailer. When I started doing it I made myself a checklist and found it very helpful.

After a few years the process became second nature, and I stopped using the checklist - but just this year I have decided to resume use of the checklist!

Reason being that I store the trailer about 15 miles from the house and this year (and last) after I had winterised it I was sitting at home suddenly wondering I had had taken care of a particular aspect of the winterisation. It bothered me so much that I had to go back out to the trailer with more antifreeze and one of the trailer batteries to run the pump and verify.

Use of the checklist, properly ticked off each Fall, should avoid that as I lose more brain cells and memory with each passing year!

Brian.
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Old 10-27-2016, 10:36 AM   #12
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Air for me gets nearly (that's NEARLY) all of the water out. Then, I use about 1.5 gals of RV anti freeze pumped through the lines and allowed to flow into the drains. Done.
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Old 10-27-2016, 10:41 AM   #13
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Blow out and pump A/F in, is my methodology. The ONE time I tried only blowing the lines in my old SOB, a single drop remained in the shower valve and freezing weather cracked it.
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:24 AM   #14
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If you don't stop to drink the coffee it takes 15 minutes to do it right.

Your vacuum idea leaves out a few things. The line going to the city connection, the line coming from the pump, the water filter at the kitchen sink, the filter before the pump, and if you have an older trailer with auto fill that copper line to the freshwater tank.

Yes blowing out the lines does not get rid of 100% of the water. It does remove 95+% of the water and moves any remaining water to a point that it will be mixed with the AF when it is pumped in. That small % of water will not cause a problem if your trailer is stored south of the Arctic Circle.
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:32 AM   #15
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I have a new airstream, and live in Seattle, weather not frigid up here, is it necessary to winterize it..??
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baronronski View Post
I have a new airstream, and live in Seattle, weather not frigid up here, is it necessary to winterize it..??
If it never freezes where your AS is parked, then no - you don't need to winterize
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Old 10-27-2016, 12:00 PM   #17
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Is there a reason to blow out the lines with air before filling them with AF? I'm wondering if it isn't just as effective to skip the air blowout step and simply pump AF through the lines, opening up each faucet, toilet, etc. one at a time.

I realize you'd still have to drain the water heater, and perhaps run the AF through each line a bit longer - to overcome dilutional effects from the clear water being displaced. But other than that, wouldn't this method work just as well?
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Old 10-27-2016, 12:00 PM   #18
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The more time spent winterizing the less time spent replacing pipes in the spring.This is one job I do not hurry. I too also use both the blow out and fill up method. I am also glad that the responses so far have been from those of us who understand 30 to 40 below zero temps. As for a schematic of your plumbing, I had a factory installed line on my motorhome which ran from the kitchen sink to under the bed and stopped. (Maybe there was a waterbed option offered in 1982) I found it the year I thought it was going to be OK just to blow out the lines. I blew all the water into that closed off pipe, the ice split that sucker from end to end.
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Old 10-27-2016, 12:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baronronski View Post
I have a new airstream, and live in Seattle, weather not frigid up here, is it necessary to winterize it..??
If you are comfortable it will not go 4 or 5 degrees below freezing for 12 or more hours at a time I would not bother. Freezing is a function of degrees below freezing and time duration below freezing. Keep in mind the latent heat of fusion is 80 times that required to drop a temperature of 1unit 1degree so time is on your side.
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Old 10-27-2016, 12:48 PM   #20
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I have a checklist of what to do, and the order that needs to be done for winterizing our 2014, Flying Cloud 27 ft. Some things may be slightly different on other models, but it can save you money from having someone else do it for you. Contact me if you would like a copy. We have to winterize correctly here in northern Vermont, or I would be in deep trouble.
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