Unable to Winterize this year; advice for the thaw!

[Toronto_Guy]

Originally Posted by wasagachris

I think you`ll see this one for sale in the spring as is. Can`t be botherd to do anything about it and waits until 5 days b4 xmas to ask. I offerd to help and I`m only 2 hrs away. Couln`t even be bothered to say no thanks. Not really an streamer IMO.
Its a shame nice new unit getting ruined. If it was mine I`d be freaking out trying anything to save it. Go figure.

I had no idea what you were talking about when I read your post. Then I checked my junk mail folder, and saw your message there. So, I wasn't ignoring you. Perhaps you could have followed up with a PM before you went about trashing me on the forum.

Now that I've read the message, I'm disappointed that you weren't a bit more honest in your post. Your offer to "help" was an offer to solicit business for you and your brother in law's RV service company. I have no issue with someone making money off me if it is required to fix the problem, but your post made it out like I was ignoring the well intentioned help of a good Samaritan or something.

Perhaps you do great work for a reasonable price. I make no issue with that. But given the tone of your post, I will just stick with my dealership should it come to that. They are also a two hour drive away, and they are always polite and friendly with me.

The replies I received were overwhelmingly positive and helpful. I tend to ignore negative posts, but I take exception when someone makes comments like that about me unjustly.

[Toronto_Guy]

Originally Posted by Garfield

I'm afraid to say that if the HWH was full and the water is frozen, for sure the tank is a goner due to the large volume. (Been there, done that). As for the rest of the plumbing system, it's probably hit and miss due to the low volume of water and plastic tubing. You might get lucky, or not. You could try thawing the trailer out, as suggested but I expect it's too late. My trailer is frozen solid down the road in London.

The water heater is my main concern actually. The plumbing system should have a pretty low volume of water in it, but I just can't remember if I emptied the water heater or not. I know that sounds silly, be we had to pack up and come home a night early from our last camping trip of the season. and it was a bit hectic. I did some winterizing stuff as I unloaded the AS at the storage lot, but my plan was to come back later in the week to blow out the lines and finish everything off.

Some family issues came up so I couldn't... and well, you know the rest.

Do you take yours to the AS dealership there to get it winterized? I've considered doing that, but we'd lose our spot at the local storage lot, or have to pay just to reserve it all winter.

[Toronto_Guy]

Originally Posted by CanoeStream

Toronto Guy, how many weeks has it been in this frozen state?

I'd estimate a little over a month...... it hasn't thawed since the first freeze. The week between Christmas and New Year is the first chance I'll have to go to it and fix it.

I'm really jealous of you folks who can park your AS's right on your property. ;-) And even more jealous of you folks that live in climates where it never freezes. LOL

[wasagachris]

Originally Posted by Toronto_Guy

I had no idea what you were talking about when I read your post. Then I checked my junk mail folder, and saw your message there. So, I wasn't ignoring you. Perhaps you could have followed up with a PM before you went about trashing me on the forum.
I don't know how much clearer I could have posted. I asked for the trailer location so I could find someone as close as possible to help and find some way to have it towed in for you as you said you hade no way to tow it yourself.I know you read the post minutes after I made it and was waiting for a response from you none came so I would call that ignoring me. As far as trashing you I merely stated the facts you waited 10 weeks after using the trailer and then posted for assisstance 5 days before Xmas and never answered an offer.

Now that I've read the message, I'm disappointed that you weren't a bit more honest in your post. Your offer to "help" was an offer to solicit business for you and your brother in law's RV service company. I have no issue with someone making money off me if it is required to fix the problem, but your post made it out like I was ignoring the well intentioned help of a good Samaritan or something.
I don't have a brother in law with a RV service company. I did work in the trade here in Ontario for several years and would have been able to convince someone I know to take in your unit at the last minute and thaw it out, winterize it and do ant repairs if neccessary. They would have done me a personal favour and may not have accepted the job otherwise considering the date and it's proximity to the holidays. If I could not have found someone else I knew to tow it for you I would have towed it myself at no charge.

Perhaps you do great work for a reasonable price. I make no issue with that. But given the tone of your post, I will just stick with my dealership should it come to that. They are also a two hour drive away, and they are always polite and friendly with me.
I operate a campground and not a service centre. I often do small or emergency repairs for my campers at no charge. There was no tone in the original post. Yes I was astounded that you waited until it was too late to winterize and when help was offered you ignored it and that was reflected in my second post. Ownership does not make you an airstreamer but comeradeship however does.

The replies I received were overwhelmingly positive and helpful. I tend to ignore negative posts, but I take exception when someone makes comments like that about me unjustly.

I don't think my original post was negative at all. I offered to help and never asked for compensation of any sort. Honestly you have severely neglected the trailer and I said that I wouldn't be surprised to see it for sale as is (unrepaired). It is blatently obvious that you don't really care about your unit or you wouldn't have waited so long to do something about the problem. Ignore me if you like,take the trailer where you want,do what you want. I really don't care what you do. I offered assisstance and did not solicit business as you infer. You know where you can put your trailer.
I do go out of my way to help anyone here who has a problem. I either offer written suggestions in post or forward service manuals I have directly to them. I also have helped others in selecting a unit for them. All of this I do for no fees or compensation.
Good luck to you Sir with your quest to have the unit repaired.

[Toronto_Guy]

Originally Posted by wasagachris

I don't think my original post was negative at all. I offered to help and never asked for compensation of any sort. Honestly you have severely neglected the trailer and I said that I wouldn't be surprised to see it for sale as is (unrepaired). It is blatently obvious that you don't really care about your unit or you wouldn't have waited so long to do something about the problem. Ignore me if you like,take the trailer where you want,do what you want. I really don't care what you do. I offered assisstance and did not solicit business as you infer. You know where you can put your trailer.
I do go out of my way to help anyone here who has a problem. I either offer written suggestions in post or forward service manuals I have directly to them. I also have helped others in selecting a unit for them. All of this I do for no fees or compensation.
Good luck to you Sir with your quest to have the unit repaired.

In the spirit of the season, and also in the spirit that fewer things in life are a bigger waste of time than arguing on the internet, I'll extend an olive branch here. ;-)

From your perspective it seems that you went out of your way to offer help and I simply ignored your request.

My perspective was a bit different. As I said, I never received your initial e-mail. It was in my junk mail folder. So I read your post where you said that I wasn't a streamer and that my trailer would be up for sale soon (and sorry, to me that comes across as a negatively toned post), and I had no clue where you were coming from. That's when I checked my junk mail folder and found your letter.

To me it read like a business solicitation. Let me be clear, I don't even have an issue someone in the business offering me their services after reading my post.

I got my hackles up because it seemed to me that you were posting negative things about me in this forum (which can have an impact as other people may read that and be less likely to offer me their opinions) simply because you thought that I had ignored your business solicitation.

As for where I can put my trailer... let's just say that if I thought that it might help thaw it, I might give it a go!

What you call "severe neglect" I call putting family priorities first. It's simply not my style to elaborate on that sort of thing on a public forum. I'm not looking for sympathy... I simply mentioned it as the reason that I didn't get around to winterizing on time. I may be relatively new to AS ownership, but I know enough to winterize.

I waited until a few days before Christmas to post partly because I was working 16 days in a row, and partly because the unit was frozen already. I figured that the damage is done already (at least until the next thaw and refreeze).

I'm not panicked about the state of my AS because it won't do any good. I also didn't panic when my AS was damaged in a windstorm and cost $25K to fix (thank god for insurance).

I posted when I did because I was a point where I had the time to deal with the issue finally. I did some research on my own, had a few ideas as to a game plan. My post on here was just looking for advice or ideas that I hadn't considered. This forum has helped me out of a few occasions. Just as I have learned from other people's mistakes on here, maybe someone else can learn from mine (as I intend to follow through and post the resolution of this misadventure).

My post count is low because I'm at the stage of ownership where I have many more questions that I have answers to give others. LOL I try to be a good citizen on here. I do my own searches before I post questions that have already been answered, and I make sure that I'm a contributing member.

[masseyfarm]

We only want to hear the solution to the trailer problem!!!!!!

On-line disagreements are a loose-loose situation.

We all know *&^% happens.

Merry Xmas

Dave

[Shacksman]

Originally Posted by Toronto_Guy

In the spirit of the season, and also in the spirit that fewer things in life are a bigger waste of time than arguing on the internet, I'll extend an olive branch here. ;-)

From your perspective it seems that you went out of your way to offer help and I simply ignored your request.

My perspective was a bit different. As I said, I never received your initial e-mail. It was in my junk mail folder. So I read your post where you said that I wasn't a streamer and that my trailer would be up for sale soon (and sorry, to me that comes across as a negatively toned post), and I had no clue where you were coming from. That's when I checked my junk mail folder and found your letter.

Toronto Guy, you have a few things mixed up. Wasagachris did not send you that email, I did. I offered you the use of my brother-in laws place to warm up your trailer, only asking that you pay for the gas to heat the place, as he keeps it cold most of the time. If it needed repairs we could have done that at the same time. Please excuse me if that was to forward for you.

[2airishuman]

the op made a mistake, it's not uncommon.

he was then BRAVE enough to post it here and ask advice.

so almost immediately a few insult and otherwise get holy with him and his ownership.

get over it, let it be.

either switch to DEcaf or or consider shirley temple eggnog next time.

he's got an understanding of what needs 2 be done and why.

there is no need for the op to justify, explain or otherwise genu flex.

cheers
2air'

[Dave Park]

The damage is about half done.

When water becomes a solid, it expands, then contracts again as it cools further. As it melts, it expands again, then shrinks as it melts. The difference is that the fittings containing the ice are all colder during the freezing process and warmer during the melting process.

If the pipes are allowed to thaw naturally, the difference in temperature will be very low. However, if the pipes are heated rapidly, the fittings can be a lot warmer (therefore more expanded) and the risk of splits falls off quite dramatically.

The true damage of leaks is the volume of water escaping. In this case, if the water pump is off, the amount of water leaking is limited to what is in the pipes, heater and tank.

If you defrost the tank FIRST and empty it, then it's just the water in the pipes and water heater. If you defrost and empty the water heater next, you should be able to trap/remove most of that water and minimize damage.

Finally, if you can make a vacuum at the water tank and the faucet at the opposite end of the system, you can prevent almost all leaks from dripping water if the system has negative pressure. Once you have vacuumed all the water from the system, you can track down the leaks and repair them. You can do this with copper by vacuum testing each section to find if there IS a leak, and then using normal methods to find out where it is (which may involve a "little" water.

This will certainly minimize the damages of a water leak and keep costs down, for a lot of effort and jerry-rigging.

[Boondocker]

I've frozen my rig up before, and it will happen again. Its just stuff and stuff is for using.

[Toronto_Guy]

Originally Posted by Shacksman

Toronto Guy, you have a few things mixed up. Wasagachris did not send you that email, I did. I offered you the use of my brother-in laws place to warm up your trailer, only asking that you pay for the gas to heat the place, as he keeps it cold most of the time. If it needed repairs we could have done that at the same time. Please excuse me if that was to forward for you.

I'm more confused now than ever, but never mind. LOL I apologize for my part in the silly on-line spat, and to the innocent by-standers who had to read it when they were just hoping to learn a little bit about winterizing.

I'll focus strictly on the AS from now on.

Speaking of which....

The temperatures here are supposed to go above freezing on Thursday and Friday. My plan is to visit the AS Thursday morning before work and get the furnace running, and take the plug out of the water heater.

I have a solar trickle charger on the roof of my AS, so my batteries should be fully charged and able to handle running the furnace all day.

I'll be off work at 10 pm, so I'll swing by the AS after work and hopefully be able to follow some of the great suggestions I got on here.

Hopefully the ten hours of above freezing temperatures and the furnace running all day will be enough to melt the water in my lines so that I can blow them out.

Now, about the water heater. If it's toast, will there be visible damage when I look at it (obvious expansion)? Assuming there's no visible damage, and I can get it to work, any thoughts on the pros and cons of firing it up? I'm just thinking that a solid block of ice like that would take a while to thaw relying only on the outside temperatures and the furnace.

If there's any obvious damage, I'll take and post pics. At the very least other people can learn from them.

[Toronto_Guy]

Originally Posted by Dave Park

The damage is about half done.

When water becomes a solid, it expands, then contracts again as it cools further. As it melts, it expands again, then shrinks as it melts. The difference is that the fittings containing the ice are all colder during the freezing process and warmer during the melting process.

If the pipes are allowed to thaw naturally, the difference in temperature will be very low. However, if the pipes are heated rapidly, the fittings can be a lot warmer (therefore more expanded) and the risk of splits falls off quite dramatically.

The true damage of leaks is the volume of water escaping. In this case, if the water pump is off, the amount of water leaking is limited to what is in the pipes, heater and tank.

If you defrost the tank FIRST and empty it, then it's just the water in the pipes and water heater. If you defrost and empty the water heater next, you should be able to trap/remove most of that water and minimize damage.

Finally, if you can make a vacuum at the water tank and the faucet at the opposite end of the system, you can prevent almost all leaks from dripping water if the system has negative pressure. Once you have vacuumed all the water from the system, you can track down the leaks and repair them. You can do this with copper by vacuum testing each section to find if there IS a leak, and then using normal methods to find out where it is (which may involve a "little" water.

This will certainly minimize the damages of a water leak and keep costs down, for a lot of effort and jerry-rigging.

Great advice, thanks. The water holding tank is at MOST about 1/8 full. I only left enough in it to be able to flush the toilet a few times on the trip home. I can't remember if I opened the drain on it or not while I was unloading the AS. Worst case scenario, the bulk of the water is in the lines and the water heater.

The pump is switched off, and the battery disconnected.

[2airishuman]

the pipes are pex, but the joints, tees and fitting are not.

most of them are copper and the pex is crimped with metal band fittings.

it's low probablity that ANY of the pex will split,

and ANY consideration of fast vs slow thawing is essentially pointless.

the variables are multiple, leaks at the joints are possible

especially where the pex SCREWS to the fixture leads which are copper.

just open all the fixtures and keep the pump OFF.

thaw rate is gonna be limited by exterior temps and furnace capacity.
____________

if there is any water ABOVE the toilet ball valve and it's frozen, that's a bad sign.

don't try OPERATING any of the valves anyway, till fully thawed, NONE of them.

and don't fire up the water heater.

IF the batteries are at full capacity, turn on the furnace.

find and REMOVED the interior access/cover panel for the water heater.

this is typically a piece of interior facade about 14x16 inches,

and ah, near the water heater.

this will need to come off to inspect anyway,

and removing it will allow a bit more interior warmth to the area.

IF it's only a tiny bit above freezing outside,

consider putting a square of bubble foil insulation

just inside the exterior water heater door, after pulling the plug.

this will help reduce cold air contact in that area,

but if it's really warm (like >45) skip this step.

IF the water heat tank if full and ruptured or bulging there may be signs.

again along with pulling the plug, FLIP the pressure release valve OPEN,

this may not be possible if the tank is full of water and frozen.
__________

it's a crap shoot on how warm to set the furnace,

if it runs more than 15-20 minutes/hour the batteries may not last more than 1 day.

while the solar panel MIGHT be charging them,

keep in mind that cold batteries have LESS capacity, especially flooded wet cells.

good luck and take pics.

cheers
2air'

[masseyfarm]

While on site inspecting the damage, charge the battery off the TV. This will help top off the battery.

[Foiled Again]

Wish I'd taken a picture, but it would be just too cruel.

Last winter a neighbor with a big fiver had to run out of town for a weekend - some work emergency. He didn't check his propane level, his RV froze and the symptom we all saw of water heater damage was the world's biggest Icicle hanging out of the vents and floor surrounding his water heater. I immediately turned off the water supply and notified the campground office. They refilled his propane tanks (billed him later)got a locksmith to open the fiver, inspected for damage, and then set to thaw out his unit for him.

The good news? The water tank was in a compartment that was thoroughly sealed from the interior of his RV. He'd had another one burst and do damage to furniture, carpets, floors etc. This all flooded out of the overflow hose until it froze, then came through the vents.

He lost the water heater - a big 10 gallon one and the pump and some pipes, but at least it didn't get furniture carpets, curtains, mattresses, clothing, etc.

When in doubt BLOW IT OUT!

[Toronto_Guy]

We had a nice three day thaw here. On the day before the thaw, I visited my AS and did a visual inspection for damage. As nearly everyone (including myself) predicted, the water heater was toast. Sorry for the horrible iPhone pic, but lighting was an issue.

I inspected all of the visible plumbing that I could see, and saw no obvious signs of damage. I opened the drain on my water heater before I left for the day.

On the last day of the thaw, the forecast called for warm temperatures during the day, and a flash freeze in the afternoon. I went to my AS before work, blew out the lines and put anit-freeze in the drains. I saw no evidence of water leaks anywhere. With a bit of luck, the damage may be restricted to the water heater.

My wife and I had been wanting to install a tankless heater at some point anyway. I guess we will just be doing it a bit sooner than we planned.

[masseyfarm]

Sounds not to bad at this point. The test will be when you put water pressure on in the spring.
Dave