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06-18-2018, 09:19 AM
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#1
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Rivet Master
2014 30' FB FC Bunk
Hoover
, Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,530
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New Driveway - Good News Bad News
Ok, I Know I am flooding you all with new posts....but....got me a few pending issues now.
I feel like at the "ripe old age" of 35 now, I just keep having adult learning experiences...stuff that as it happens, and does not happen to the expectations I would have, I learn of all the ways I could have avoided this or that but was uncritical......sadly, my brand spanking new driveway is the newest example:
Ill likely do a walkthrough video and post it on here later, but in a nutshell for now...I had a driveway installed, concrete poured...the person that did the work, know my airstream, I stated what I wanted, he looked everything over, quoted a price I was happy with...and he said it was totally doable...yay I think.
Well...I was on no timeline, but it worked out that while I was away all last week, he could pour the job...I had some concerns about this...stated clearly to him that above all else, I was concerned about the grade, because as it is me pulling over the grass, bottoming out was close, but I didn't bottom out...so any added grade in the process would risk bottoming out...he acknowledged and carried out....well....I get home...start my approach, DW watching...first attempt straight on, and that low point below the bumper was gonna hit before the tires even got into the city water gutter....the street level is flat, there is a bit of elevation on the left side of this drive...sloping from left to right...the right side does not risk hitting, that left looking at it is where contact would be.
So, I came at it using a more like 70 degree angle to get the trailer on the low side, and the tires started up on the higher side...this allowed me to get in after 3 more attempts with LESS than an inch to spare...
the intent of the driveway was to make my life easier.
I have not paid the guy yet worth pointing out...just got off the phone with him...I told him that as it is its not workable...before my situation was "kinda annoying" at times, but totally workable...I wanted to work toward a driveway situation that I could take the kids out on my own over time...and my wife wanted to get to pulling the trailer more herself (whole other thread).
Well, the man that did the work was pretty resistant...he went on and on how he brought his own personal "34 foot 5th wheel" to check the grade"....I reminded him that my trailer sits a good deal lower than his, so while that was appreciated, it clearly was insufficient.
This is the "adulting" part of this, that I feel I "failed"....I should have KNOWN that this would happen...I should have asked a million questions...and said "hey, what exactly have you done to prepare to avoid this..."
I did at least clearly state my deep concerns about this very thing given my knowledge of the situation, I have that all in writing as a matter of fact (texts with screen shots)...he is gonna have to rip up some concrete and fix now....he seems ready to get into that discussion now after some initial deep resistance....
I have not breached the discussion of how this will go as far as payment...I talked to a buddy who works in concrete and gave me the reference, and he agreed (confidentially) that he messed up....that he would have only done the job in stages requiring we double check the work with the trailer as you progress..given the nature of the thing.
Predictably, he did start going on about how good a deal I got...which I reminded him that at this point the driveway is more of a hazard than a help, so the deal seems less value at this time
He seems like he will help fix this...I just don't know how the issue of cost is gonna play out...I think logically its on him...I suppose I have an advantage being I have not paid him, and I think what he will be fixing is his mistake, and not mine as he was not without all the parameters and conditions to do this job.
I suppose if I have to pay 300-500 more to fix this, I would not quibble, but im not sure what being a reasonable and experienced adult at this point would do....
That's where you fine people enter...I need advice...
__________________
“The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them...We are not figuratively, but literally stardust.”
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06-18-2018, 09:51 AM
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#2
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Lost in America
2015 27' FB International
2006 25' Safari FB SE
2004 19' International CCD
Santa Fe
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,151
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How about a dexter axle lift kit and he pays half or all?
__________________
This is the strangest life I've ever known - J. Morrison
2015 Airstream International Serenity 27FB
2017 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Duramax Diesel
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06-18-2018, 10:13 AM
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#3
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PharmGeek
. . .
. . . I need advice . . .
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Well . . . in the spirit of your tone [hopefully ]. . . fewer words would have probably covered what seems like at least 2 problems for discussion . . . IMO.
1. A driveway problem -- regardless of causation/blame -- which could be discussed more productively with:
-- photos with the TV and AS shown at the crucial spots
-- photos with some lumber pads under the tires showing a temporary workable solution
[how much does the grade have to come up/down?]
-- what remediation work would fix this, and how much would it cost?
2. Causation/Responsibility/Blame
Without going into detail, you share some of the blame for this with the contractor IMO. Resolution TBD based on the cost of remediation per above.
Regardless of the solution [axle lift or not], it is important IMO to do a careful mock-up and post photos, in order to develop a good plan for a solution. Further discussion without these photos would be unproductive, and probably lead to analysis paralysis.
Good luck,
Peter
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06-18-2018, 10:28 AM
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#4
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Rivet Master
2014 30' FB FC Bunk
Hoover
, Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,530
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I’ll do more photos and video in a bit - you are right.
I’m interested in more detail about my responsibility or blame here.
I have a buddy that works in the same field - he seems to think it’s on him - that in their work if this kinda thing happens they have to eat it.
But I realize some of this is complicated
Here is my text predating starting the job:
Note - I had no rigid tone frame for completion.
__________________
“The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them...We are not figuratively, but literally stardust.”
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06-18-2018, 10:59 AM
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#5
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Thanks. Personally I will wait until you post photos/videos about the extent of the problem.
As you likely appreciate, further "I said . . he said" negotiations between you and the contractor will need a context to resolve whether you had a "contract" in which the design was entirely his responsibility, which in turn depends on how out-of-whack things are as-built. Kind of a circular discussion which will be much more productive once we have the necessary visuals to assess things.
You might also consider sending the visual documentation to the contractor IMO, and to the guy who recommended him.
Peter
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06-18-2018, 11:35 AM
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#6
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Rivet Master
2014 30' FB FC Bunk
Hoover
, Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,530
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I understand the need/desire for photos and objectivity in this matter....ill post more in a bit for you all to see...and Ive already agreed in talking with the contractor that getting together to look it over would be helpful, otherwise...
I think his mistake (and maybe mine? in hindsight bare minimum) was that he used his own personal camper to back it in as he did the job to make sure nothing bottomed out....turns out all campers have different dimensions....one has to wonder if he felt compelled to pull his own camper out to be sure, that it would be a moment of pause....
I have not considered a lift kit...not sure I would want one...does it affect towing...how much clearance would it add? I would need to somehow determine how much clearance I would need to clear this current problem first....not precisely sure how to estimate that, but
__________________
“The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them...We are not figuratively, but literally stardust.”
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06-18-2018, 11:38 AM
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#7
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Rivet Master
2014 30' FB FC Bunk
Hoover
, Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,530
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Photo of the driveway
__________________
“The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them...We are not figuratively, but literally stardust.”
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06-18-2018, 12:12 PM
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#8
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Rivet Master
2007 22' International CCD
Corona
, California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,180
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The little dip by the curb is an unavoidable issue. It's there for street drainage.
Three possible approaches:
1) Make some sturdy ramps to bridge that gap temporarily when you back the trailer in. Use 2 x 8 material maybe 6 feet long with tapered ends and another piece for extra support in the dip.
2) Release your WD bars while the AS is in the street. That will drop the trailer front a bit, and give you more rear clearance...maybe enough to avoid dragging. Not a brag, but one of the reasons I'm going to powered WD jacks on my ProPride setup controllable from the TV cab is to try to deal with similar issues on MY new driveway--that the AS will drag on just like yours....and for the same reason--the drainage by the curb... ON mine, once I get the rear end started up the drive, I have to immediately re-tension to avoid dragging the FRONT end hitch parts on the curb...
3) Seriously consider raising the AS about three inches at the axles with a lift kit. It will NOT change the handling, but will give you more clearance over driveways, gas stations, rough roads, and other places. This may require minimal hitch rigging changes to get the AS level once again... It is something high on my AS improvement list as well. I have a nice "beauty mark" wrinkle in the rear curbside corner that came from HARD dragging the rear skid on that side over a driveway once..(sigh)
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
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06-18-2018, 12:12 PM
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#9
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4 Rivet Member
2017 26' Flying Cloud
Huntsville
, Alabama
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 288
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I'm not expert or even close. But from what I can see in the pics, with that grade it's hard to imagine anything would work short of extending your driveway into the street. But I do hope you come to some resolution.
__________________
2017 Airstream 26U Twin
2017 F250 Platinum
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06-18-2018, 12:24 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
2014 30' FB FC Bunk
Hoover
, Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,530
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hmmmmmmmm.....in my fatigue and haste....I have not tried that obvious solution...although I am not sure it will make a difference...
I have a propride and didn't have the bars loose......Just called sean and left a VM for input, but Im gonna get home tonight and fiddle and see if it changes clearance...
Keep in mind, the clearance issue for backing in even remotely at a straight shot is as I recall maybe 1-1.5 feet before a tire gets to the rain gutter.
Ive never considered a lift kit...
Keep in mind too, that all the talk about temp fixes seems interesting, but I can effectively back it in at this point, albeit quite tenuously so that "works"...but my hope/desire of doing the driveway was to make me going in and out solo easier...now its like threading a needle.
I suppose some kind of lumber contraption would bridge the gap....I started feverishly looking around for lumber last night (none around) and went with the like hard angle approach instead wich just made the cut.
__________________
“The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them...We are not figuratively, but literally stardust.”
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06-18-2018, 12:28 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
2007 22' International CCD
Corona
, California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,180
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Understand. I get grumped at twice if I drag the Airstream on our driveway--once for scuffing the Airstream, and the other for gouging the shiny new driveway...I understand the pain...
Let us know what you come up with. And do get some rest--its hard to think properly with a fuzzy, sleep-deprived brain...
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
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06-18-2018, 01:17 PM
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#12
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmkrum
. . .
1) Make some sturdy ramps to bridge that gap temporarily when you back the trailer in. Use 2 x 8 material maybe 6 feet long with tapered ends and another piece for extra support in the dip.
. . .
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This should work for a test fit mock up IMO. I think I would start with longer planks, and a bit wider to give you some wiggle room. Maybe 2 2x10 10' long, with plenty of cut-offs to use as supports every 1/4 of the length. If you have any red bricks around, they would also work as supports.
If you can find any construction cedar 2x material [vs. CCA etc. pressure-treated lumber], you can use all the scraps as kindling for campsite fires, or in your Bonfire stove!
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06-18-2018, 01:39 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PharmGeek
. . .
.....in my fatigue and haste....
. . .
. . . feverishly looking around for lumber last night
. . .
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. . . echoing rmkrum about rest . . . no point in hurting yourself . . . or causing any damage.
Haste makes waste.
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06-18-2018, 02:11 PM
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#14
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Rivet Master
2014 30' FB FC Bunk
Hoover
, Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,530
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Well no harm done and I was extremely slow in approach
Thankfully by a miracle there is a needle to be threaded here - if the fates had it any different - my trailer would be sitting in the culdesac right now and I’d be going to HD to buy 2x10’s.
I just vacillated about this upgrade for years now - pull the trigger - and find it only made my situation more tenuous.
Gonna get home today and scratch my head and such and think about it...it’ll work itself out - I think the contractor will work with me to correct the issue.
He was concerned about creating an erosion issue on the left side cutting in further but that I think would be a more manageable issue vs this.
__________________
“The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them...We are not figuratively, but literally stardust.”
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06-18-2018, 02:37 PM
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#15
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Rivet Master
2012 27' Flying Cloud
W
, New England
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PharmGeek
I’ll do more photos and video in a bit - you are right.
I’m interested in more detail about my responsibility or blame here.
I have a buddy that works in the same field - he seems to think it’s on him - that in their work if this kinda thing happens they have to eat it.
But I realize some of this is complicated
Here is my text predating starting the job:
Note - I had no rigid tone frame for completion.
Attachment 314412
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Well - bummer all the way around. I'm not a lawyer so take with a grain of salt. Your pic of your exchange shows you raised your concern about bottoming out, his reply was about the weather (ignoring your concern) and you gave him the thumb's up. I don't know how that would play in a courtroom if it came to that, but hard to say there was a meeting of the minds there....
You got some great advice here about how to adjust with the current situation without any changes to the driveway (ramps, lift kit, etc.). Perhaps a simple solution would be to decide on your approach and ask him to split that cost with you in the form of a discount off what you owe for the job?
Good luck!!
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06-18-2018, 02:47 PM
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#16
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Rivet Master
2011 22' Sport
Portland
, Oregon
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 657
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I also don't see how it could have been done much differently, the "top" of your driveway is a fixed elevation above the street and strongly anchored at that height by your house and garage (I assume). There aren't too many option of gaining a fixed elevation within a fixed distance, so I am not sure what a contractor could have done differently at all...unless they made the driveway not have a fixed slope, but a concave curvature. But that is pretty difficult to achieve, especially with tight tolerances that would be present here.
OT, I am somewhat surprised your are parking on the driveway a week after it was poured...around my area the norm is 2-weeks or more of cure time before driving on them.
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06-18-2018, 03:11 PM
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#17
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Not sure from which direction you backed the AS up the drive, but in your bottom picture in Post #7, it looks to these eyes that the slopes are more favorable for backing in from the right side of the picture IMO.
<--- Airstream here backing to left and up the drive, thus able to swing the rear over the lawn.
The lower right corner of the photo above looks like the end of the cul-de-sac, which appears relatively flatter, and closer to the angle of the right edge of your drive where it meets the street.
Maybe not but FWIW -- good luck!
Peter
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06-18-2018, 03:28 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
2014 30' FB FC Bunk
Hoover
, Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,530
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Couple points of clarification....I asked the contractor if it is ok to drive over the new driveway..he said 2 days...keep in mind though that the area it is parked on itself is 5 years old concrete.
Next point I'd make...when I discuss what I wanted...if the answer is "well, I can try but you may bottom out"...then I just pass.
I of course had concerns about the grade issue.....obviously in hindsight...assuming this cannot be fixed (I think it can, or hope)...these concerns are obvious...implicit..."hi, I would like a driveway for the sole purpose of backing this particular trailer right here to go up there"...."ok, I can do that"....
What that should generally mean in "common sense terms" without any qualification, is "yes, ill pour this driveway, youll be able to back that trailer there in a straight manner"...
logically to me, it seemed possible being that before hand I didn't bottom out...now I do....so I think the path is there to grad it to desired outcome..
Either way, I never got any indication from the gentleman that there was any real possibility that the outcome would be bottoming out...I asked the specific question, he only encouraged me...
I think in talking to him he will help me out...im not horribly concerned about the cost issue per se...mainly I want the end result to work do some desirable outcome...why else spend said thousands of dollars when it is not strictly necessary
keep in mind too, that once you reach the gutter, the grade at the top of the hill is a non issue....this is all pretty close I think...just close but no cigar.
__________________
“The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them...We are not figuratively, but literally stardust.”
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06-18-2018, 03:31 PM
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#19
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Rivet Master
2014 30' FB FC Bunk
Hoover
, Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,530
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I tried backing indeed hugging the hedge row as close as possible...still the low part on the right bumper was gonna hit....
I tried 3 different straight approaches...dead center...as far to the right in that more flat zone, and one with a slight angle but still centered...all a no go...
__________________
“The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them...We are not figuratively, but literally stardust.”
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06-18-2018, 03:50 PM
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#20
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Reads a lot
2017 30' Classic
Titusville
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,209
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Just a word of caution...and I am not an attorney but not paying the guy (even it is a bad result, or different from your expectations) could result in him placing a lien on your house. The concrete was poured. There are no cracks and to the average person out there it would appear that you have a nice new driveway. I do hope you will be able to fix the issues and a mutually agreed upon price.
__________________
Lauri
She Believed She Could so She Did.
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