Getting ready for the freeze-Winterize

[GettinAway]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Did you include every low-point drain, and the water heater drain, in your routine, and do it all twice? [See Post #472]

Yes, this takes a while, but no more than an hour if you are focused on the task IMO.

Peter

B].

If you were asking me, the answer is yes. Twice each. Three times on the low point drains that come out beneath the fresh water tank. Just twice on the ones beneath the kitchen sink. The only place I could hear the gurgle was when I was blowing out the outside shower.
I know it’s a belt and suspenders thing, but I just don’t want to worry about it. I’ve never “not” used the antifreeze. Was going to try it this one time since we are heading to Florida in Feb.
Thx

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

One useful starting point (for any of these processes):

Empty out the fresh water tank at your last campsite. Dump the black and gray tanks (and then close those valves). Open up everything else and let it all drain. All the low points and all the faucets. Leave it in this state and drive home. All the shake rattle and roll on the trip will do a pretty good job getting *most* of the water out.
. . .

Originally Posted by CruizinDux

. . .
A!so i like U-B's advice on opening the lps and taking a drive. Also helps to open the faucets and the remove the HWH drain plug then too.
. . .

Good tips above, including uncle bob's about needing a certain level of CFM, to get the job done.

Originally Posted by GettinAway

If you were asking me, the answer is yes. Twice each. Three times on the low point drains that come out beneath the fresh water tank. Just twice on the ones beneath the kitchen sink. The only place I could hear the gurgle was when I was blowing out the outside shower.
I know it’s a belt and suspenders thing, but I just don’t want to worry about it. I’ve never “not” used the antifreeze. Was going to try it this one time since we are heading to Florida in Feb.
Thx

Thanks for the reply. I suspect that gurgling remains due to inadequate CFM air flow from smaller compressors. Any water in low points running to the outdoor shower should flow out, if the hot and cold lines are each blasted with 40 PSI air and good CFM. It helps to remove the shower spray head, and drape that flex supply line down so gravity can help IMO.

My old portable [but heavy] 120-volt compressor is aging, and I plan to upgrade the new Viair 450 12-volt unit with a small portable storage tank and regulator [for the CFM], and the necessary fittings to winterize with the Viair only. BTW this 450 unit is a work of art, with great fittings, hoses and carry bag. CFM low, but duty cycle is 100%. Ah, the joys of a good tool!

Cheers,

Peter

PS -- Viair 450: https://www.google.com/search?q=Viai...com&gws_rd=ssl

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by CruizinDux

I suspected my bw cv was acting up...maybe the spring had failed. I was having trouble pushing air thru it. Key noise, some gurgling which is not normal. Seemed to be working fine on the start of a long trip,but had a quick and unplanned otr winteriztion. The next morning was fine so, whew!!!. Nrxt stop at CW, bought a small AF hand pump & some AF, with a hose to connect to the male BW fitting. The weather warmed so put it all away. Two rinses later, the floods began. Never got a chance to use the hand pump/w/ AF.

So to answer your question...swap it for brass!!! my install is on the 29 footers thread...but i have finished the cabinet access cut with a vent screen to help with warm air curculation vrom a portable heater. Lots of plumbing in this area on a 20.


Or buy a small camco? hand pump with AF. For use sith BW/cv only.

To touch on U-Bobs comments. Normally I use a Rigid dual tank compressor, but on numerous occasions when it was acting up, have opted for an old Craftsman 11vac inflator. works fine, Just takes a little longer.

However i used to travel with an aged coleman 12vdc and have successfully used used it otr on about 4 occasions. I now travel with the 110vac inflator. I just think the 110vac works a bit better, and we rarely boondock so have 110vac available.

Also FWIW, our 20 is much less complicated than the longer units. I take my time, work f to b, b to f, up/down....repeat again.. have a beer, repeat as required ( the winterization) until quiet.

A!so i like U-B's advice on opening the lps and taking a drive. Also helps to open the faucets and the remove the HWH drain plug then too.

B

ps, with my senior mind a check list to check off helps and i always start with the pump and then blow the water back to the fw tank. I use a hose with a 1/2 make thread to accomplish that. Hard to get doen to the pump house level.

pss, i have added a diverter valve at the pump but it's got to be a short wnterization lead time or exrteme weather before that is my path.

I purchased this pump from CAMCO, I haven’t read the directions for use, is there a reason that it should only be used for the BW/cv only ( black water/control valve ) doesn’t it only push pink stuff and not back toward CAMCO pump. I was thinking to use it also on city water inlet to introduce pink stuff. One problem I am contemplating is if there is a leaky one way in the system pink stuff could be sent into fresh water tank, I don’t want that either. I am interested in others thoughts. Thanks

Quote;
Or buy a small camco? hand pump with AF. For use sith BW/cv only.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

If one is out shopping for a compressor to blow the lines in an RV, they tend to come in two important flavors. One is an oilless compressor and the other has oil. That does not mean that a "with oil" compressor sprays oil all over the place, only that there is some present in the mechanism. Oil is not a good thing to blow into your water lines ... it tastes bad

In addition there are shop tools that require oil be added to the air to keep them happy. Many of us oil the air at the compressor when using those kind of tools. That puts oil in the air lines. If you do this, it's best to keep those air lines separate from the "no oil" air lines.

RV water lines are not the only thing that get bothered by oil in the air. You generally don't want oil getting into the paint you are spraying. Because it's a common issue, you can get filters that go on the output of "oil" compressors. How well they work for this or that application is a bit dependent on how good they are.

If you have a great big giant tank compressor taking up a corner in the garage, when was the last time you blew out the tank? Hmmm..... I usually can't remember either. If so, it's a good idea to hit the dump valve on the tank and flush out whatever is sitting in the bottom of the tank before blowing out the RV. Rusty water from the bottom of the tank also tastes a bit bad. Indeed the same rusty water is a problem for air tools and spray paint so it's a good habit to get into.

Bob

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

If one is out shopping for a compressor to blow the lines in an RV, they tend to come in two important flavors. One is an oilless compressor and the other has oil. That does not mean that a "with oil" compressor sprays oil all over the place, only that there is some present in the mechanism. Oil is not a good thing to blow into your water lines ... it tastes bad

In addition there are shop tools that require oil be added to the air to keep them happy. Many of us oil the air at the compressor when using those kind of tools. That puts oil in the air lines. If you do this, it's best to keep those air lines separate from the "no oil" air lines.

RV water lines are not the only thing that get bothered by oil in the air. You generally don't want oil getting into the paint you are spraying. Because it's a common issue, you can get filters that go on the output of "oil" compressors. How well they work for this or that application is a bit dependent on how good they are.

If you have a great big giant tank compressor taking up a corner in the garage, when was the last time you blew out the tank? Hmmm..... I usually can't remember either. If so, it's a good idea to hit the dump valve on the tank and flush out whatever is sitting in the bottom of the tank before blowing out the RV. Rusty water from the bottom of the tank also tastes a bit bad. Indeed the same rusty water is a problem for air tools and spray paint so it's a good habit to get into.

Bob

Bob that is so correct! That’s one of the finer points, that’s the reason I chose this model, no oil, it’s not the most powerful but does the job stats are in the photo

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet

Bob that is so correct! That’s one of the finer points, that’s the reason I chose this model, no oil, it’s not the most powerful but does the job stats are in the photo

Attachment 354816

I would recommend also using the Viair Winterization kit. It will control the pressure going the Airstream plumbing and has the fittings you need.

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by Adventure.AS

I would recommend also using the Viair Winterization kit. It will control the pressure going the Airstream plumbing and has the fittings you need.



Attachment 354818

Yes, I put my own kit together from Lowe’s, Walmart and campers Barn, was much less expensive. I know doesn’t make sense the Viair wasn’t cheap

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The plumbing in your typical trailer should be fine at 60PSI. Set your compressor regulator there and that will take care of any potential issues. Indeed it *probably* is good to quite a bit more. Since CFM (not pressure) is the thing you are after, no need to push it.

Bob

[GettinAway]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Good tips above, including uncle bob's about needing a certain level of CFM, to get the job done.



Thanks for the reply. I suspect that gurgling remains due to inadequate CFM air flow from smaller compressors. Any water in low points running to the outdoor shower should flow out, if the hot and cold lines are each blasted with 40 PSI air and good CFM. It helps to remove the shower spray head, and drape that flex supply line down so gravity can help IMO.

My old portable [but heavy] 120-volt compressor is aging, and I plan to upgrade the new Viair 450 12-volt unit with a small portable storage tank and regulator [for the CFM], and the necessary fittings to winterize with the Viair only. BTW this 450 unit is a work of art, with great fittings, hoses and carry bag. CFM low, but duty cycle is 100%. Ah, the joys of a good tool!

Cheers,

Peter

PS -- Viair 450: https://www.google.com/search?q=Viai...com&gws_rd=ssl

My compressor has a pressure tank. I set it at 40 lbs. I’m not sure what the CFM air flow is, but coming from the tank, I would think it would be adequate. I imagine the lines are clear. Guess I’ll find out because we will see temps in the 20s before I can get back to the trailer.

[OTRA15]

Thanks . . . sounds like you are in the clear.

Peter

[Gene]

I always blow out the system with 60 psi. That is pretty standard city water pressure so the system should handle that with no problem. There will always be moisture in the system no matter how long you blow it out unless you blow it so long the friction dries it out. A little bit of moisture won't hurt anything unless it slowly becomes drops which become a little pool which become a thimbleful and freeze in a low spot. It is hard to make sure how much moisture is in the lines without threading a camera through there and antifreeze is cheaper than a camera. You may have a low spot you never find (until it freezes and bursts). Pex pipes are forgiving, but not invincible.

To me it is just not worth it to not use antifreeze. Perhaps if I lived somewhere where freezing is rare and temps never go below 25˚, I would rely on air pressure alone. If records were set and temp got a low lower, you can run the furnace for a night or two. Antifreeze is cheap. If your trailer doesn't have a kit to attach to the water pump to suck the antifreeze through the pump and not the tank, they are fairly cheap and amortized over several years, really cheap. Good insurance.

I learned from experience the first year to make sure I had antifreeze go through the toilet valve (hard to fix requiring removal of toilet) and the kitchen sprayer. The hose for the sprayer definitely has a low point and the hose can be hard to remove. The outdoor shower also is easy to forget and removing the shower heads will protect them—the (plastic ones crack very easily). Remove the shower heads too and put them and the shower heads in a warm place for the winter. You could run antifreeze through them, but save some and take them out.

Although there are ways to completely empty the hot water heater, it is made to have some water in the bottom and that is not a problem as long as you rinse it out every couple of years. I always take out the drain valve and run water through the heater, but you can run a lot more through it to clean out the bottom. Eventually the stuff in the bottom gets unfriendly, but you shouldn't be drinking from the hot waster faucets.

The three tanks can have a little water in them because that doesn't hurt anything (only if enough water is in a restricted space and freezes to push against the walls of pipes or tanks or whatever, will it break something). Water expands 11% when it freezes, so theoretically the tanks could be almost full, but the residue in the black tank will be interesting in a frozen block of ice and how long would it take for all that ice to melt? You can put stuff in the tanks to keep the valves lubricated but if you do, make sure it is food safe if you use it in the fresh water tank.

After a few times winterizing it gets pretty easy. The first few times can make you a little nuts while you figure it out. On our Airstream there were three drain valves inconveniently located behind and between the tires (I think that was the same on most or all trailers for years and may still be). I replaced the fresh water tank valve with a hose bib, so it was a lot easier to use. The two cheapo plastic valves for the hot and cold lines were a real problem to get to and to turn. Opening and closing valves got old fast as I kept wondering why they made it so hard. Only if they located them in the middle would it be worse.

Although winterizing has the excitement of the fear you may do it wrong, summerizing takes far more time—filling, chlorinating, flushing, filling, repeat, repeat and repeat. Emptying the fresh water tank takes forever with the small outlet (other trailers have a large knife valve in the bottom of the fresh water tank and empty in a few minutes).

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by Gene

I always blow out the system with 60 psi. That is pretty standard city water pressure so the system should handle that with no problem. There will always be moisture in the system no matter how long you blow it out unless you blow it so long the friction dries it out. A little bit of moisture won't hurt anything unless it slowly becomes drops which become a little pool which become a thimbleful and freeze in a low spot. It is hard to make sure how much moisture is in the lines without threading a camera through there and antifreeze is cheaper than a camera. You may have a low spot you never find (until it freezes and bursts). Pex pipes are forgiving, but not invincible.

To me it is just not worth it to not use antifreeze. Perhaps if I lived somewhere where freezing is rare and temps never go below 25˚, I would rely on air pressure alone. If records were set and temp got a low lower, you can run the furnace for a night or two. Antifreeze is cheap. If your trailer doesn't have a kit to attach to the water pump to suck the antifreeze through the pump and not the tank, they are fairly cheap and amortized over several years, really cheap. Good insurance.

I learned from experience the first year to make sure I had antifreeze go through the toilet valve (hard to fix requiring removal of toilet) and the kitchen sprayer. The hose for the sprayer definitely has a low point and the hose can be hard to remove. The outdoor shower also is easy to forget and removing the shower heads will protect them—the (plastic ones crack very easily). Remove the shower heads too and put them and the shower heads in a warm place for the winter. You could run antifreeze through them, but save some and take them out.

Although there are ways to completely empty the hot water heater, it is made to have some water in the bottom and that is not a problem as long as you rinse it out every couple of years. I always take out the drain valve and run water through the heater, but you can run a lot more through it to clean out the bottom. Eventually the stuff in the bottom gets unfriendly, but you shouldn't be drinking from the hot waster faucets.

The three tanks can have a little water in them because that doesn't hurt anything (only if enough water is in a restricted space and freezes to push against the walls of pipes or tanks or whatever, will it break something). Water expands 11% when it freezes, so theoretically the tanks could be almost full, but the residue in the black tank will be interesting in a frozen block of ice and how long would it take for all that ice to melt? You can put stuff in the tanks to keep the valves lubricated but if you do, make sure it is food safe if you use it in the fresh water tank.

After a few times winterizing it gets pretty easy. The first few times can make you a little nuts while you figure it out. On our Airstream there were three drain valves inconveniently located behind and between the tires (I think that was the same on most or all trailers for years and may still be). I replaced the fresh water tank valve with a hose bib, so it was a lot easier to use. The two cheapo plastic valves for the hot and cold lines were a real problem to get to and to turn. Opening and closing valves got old fast as I kept wondering why they made it so hard. Only if they located them in the middle would it be worse.

Although winterizing has the excitement of the fear you may do it wrong, summerizing takes far more time—filling, chlorinating, flushing, filling, repeat, repeat and repeat. Emptying the fresh water tank takes forever with the small outlet (other trailers have a large knife valve in the bottom of the fresh water tank and empty in a few minutes).

Right on Gene, summarizing in ‘summary’, opening a faucet helps fresh water drain a little quicker. I am sure you know that, hopefully that tip will help others.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet

Right on Gene, summarizing in ‘summary’, opening a faucet helps fresh water drain a little quicker. I am sure you know that, hopefully that tip will help others.

If you are referring to draining the fresh water tank, opening a faucet won't help much, if any, IMO. The pump and check valve are in the way, and would prevent air going "back" into the tank, thereby breaking the vacuum when you open the small drain valve.

For the low point drains, water heater, etc. . . . yes opening all the hot/cold faucets will help speed up the draining process.

Peter

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

If you are referring to draining the fresh water tank, opening a faucet won't help much, if any, IMO. The pump and check valve are in the way, and would prevent air going "back" into the tank, thereby breaking the vacuum when you open the small drain valve.

For the low point drains, water heater, etc. . . . yes opening all the hot/cold faucets will help speed up the draining process.

Peter

Just remove the inlet fitting from the back of the water pump to let more air into the fresh water tank. This needs to be done in any event to winterize the pump and filter.

[OTRA15]

Exactly. I blow by mouth into the freed-up supply line coming from the tank, because in our trailer, there is a low spot in that line, where water gets trapped. I can actually feel the pressure drop, when that trapped water runs back into the tank.

Peter

PS -- Post #472 here:

[click on orange arrow in quote to go directly there]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

. . .
The pump, pump filter and supply line from the tank, have to be done also, including freeing up the supply line end at the pump, and blowing by mouth back into the line until you feel no resistance to your breath.
. . .

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

If you are referring to draining the fresh water tank, opening a faucet won't help much, if any, IMO. The pump and check valve are in the way, and would prevent air going "back" into the tank, thereby breaking the vacuum when you open the small drain valve.

For the low point drains, water heater, etc. . . . yes opening all the hot/cold faucets will help speed up the draining process.

Peter

Here’s a photo, if the valve is opened the water will drain and further turning on the pump the water will drain faster, so I think that opening up a plumbing fixture has an affect on the volume of water flowing out. Am I looking at this wrong?

[Gene]

I think Peter is right when he says opening faucets does not help drain the fresh water tank, but I drain the hot and cold water pipes at the same time, so it works as well as it can. I remember on our Airstream it took hours and maybe another hour or two to sanitize the water system because all the drains were too small and drained very, very slowly. I can sanitize in half the time now.

Assuming that the drains haven't changed since my 2008 model, it seems Airstream cannot learn how to improve things even though Wally made that the company motto. I sanitize the system twice a year since leaving water in the hot summer in dark spaces (pipes and tanks) is a recipe for disease or just ugly, nasty water. It is a relief not spending half a day at it.

Keeping the air flow up with a small "pancake" compressor is not easy because there is only small reserve. But I got rid of my large compressor years ago because it was too hard (i.e., heavy) to keep moving around when I used it to run power tools. I do one faucet or drain at a time so there is enough air at that point. Usually I run out of air after a few facets or drains. Then I wait. I go around the faucets and drain several times because droplets and vapor don't all come out, but will gather together (water loves itself and somewhat like mercury clumps together fairly quickly and that's how to eventually get a cup in trap or a low hanging pipe). A faucet and it supply line may seem empty, but ten minutes later you get a lot more out. Keep at it until you just get damp air.

The water heater is an interesting challenge. I now have a dual fuel, 10 gal. heater with a sacrificial anode. Having hot water without worrying about turning on the propane heater is one less thing to think about. Fuel is free. Ten gallons is 67% more than we had before and we never run out. The anode is also the drain plug and can be difficult to re-install because of the weight of the anode makes it hard to hold straight to the threads, but it just takes some time to learn how to maneuver it (putting it in with a socket and extender helps sometimes because it holds the bolt more securely than fingers can). The anode is really cheap and has only lasted a couple of years, but replacements are around $10. If you remove the plug/anode when the system is pressurized, wear rain gear because when it gets loose, you will get a shower. How would I know that? I do it very other time I sanitize or winterize—since I am always wearing torn old work clothes, I guess it helps clean them up. Fortunately it is not hot. Do I have a memory problem? Half of the time, yes, half, no, but my pants are pretty clean despite the holes.

All that has been written about this over the years on this thread is probably more than anyone needs to know and I am sure that when this thread started, I and others posted much the same things. I know people don't read the whole thread or do PhD level research, so it is ok to post it again. I looked at the numbers and see Peter posts four times more often than I do and has passed me—get a hobby Peter! There's a world outside of the Forum. Mental health intervention over....

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet

Here’s a photo, if the valve is opened the water will drain and further turning on the pump the water will drain faster, so I think that opening up a plumbing fixture has an affect on the volume of water flowing out. Am I looking at this wrong?
Attachment 354913

owners manual reference for draining the fresh water tank, other models may be different.

[OTRA15]

[earlier draft post deleted. Gotta go out. Will review later]


Peter

[Silvr_Bullet]

(null)
The fresh water tank is to the left in the photo. The bottom bellow my red arrow is where two lines are seen with black sealant, one comes from the fresh water tank the other is from the water system piping, both drain water below the trailer. If you open fixtures in the trailer without turning on the pump water will drain out faster because by opening faucets more air will create faster draining.