Adding antifreeze to plumbing

[Dan and Liz]

Oops - and unscrew and mop out water from water pump filter sump.

[Menno]

Originally Posted by pcskier

This anti-freeze/no antifreeze debate is as personal as tires, hitches, and tow vehicles. Here's my two cents:

1. Putting antifreeze in the FW tank and pulling it though the system will make it a massive project to try flushing the tank in the spring. Take the time to install a $20 winterizing kit in front of the water pump so you can leave the tank out of the equation. https://www.amazon.com/Camco-Permane...interizing+kit. Be warned...the valve on the winterizing kit IS directional...make sure you install in the right direction or you'll be confounded as to why you can't seem to draw antifreeze out of the jug. And, there also is NO reason to put antifreeze in the water heater once it's been drained. If a few oz are left in the bottom, it won't hurt anything. Just drain it and then bypass it before using compressed air and/or anti-freeze.

2. I stopped using anti-freeze in the lines. It took forever to get the odor flushed out and used so much water. And even then, when it seemed they were clear of odor, on my first trip, when it got warm out, the water smelled like antifreeze again, especially hot shower water that was heated in the water heater. (I didn't use AF in the water heater...just the hot water traveling to the fixtures picked up odor).

3. I switched to just compressed air. I use one of those 6 gallon pancake compressors with a quick connect fitting attached to the city water inlet. Not the schrader type that is a pain to have to have someone stand there holding the chuck on the fitting. This one allows you to connect and walk away and do your thing.https://express.google.com/u/0/produ...hoCSuUQAvD_BwE Recommend getting one, they are under $200 and handy to have around. The small tire inflators can get the system up to pressure, but the volume is so small, it takes much to long to do this well over and over again. You want a compressor with a few gallons of volume. The key is that they provide CONTINUOUS pressure to push water out. Small tire inflators will pressurize the pipes, but as soon as you open a fixture, the pressure drops immediately after expelling SOME water. You want CONTINUOUS and SUSTAINED pressure for 20 seconds or so, to expel the water without the pressure dropping to zero in literally 3 seconds. This requires compressor with a tank. I suspect people that have had problems with winterizing with just air, might have been using a Viair or something similar that does not have any capacity...just a piston pumping out air and slowly pressurizing the plumbing lines. Not enough.

Fire up the compressor (45 psi setting) and go around all the fixtures and low point drains, one by one, until no water, or even 'mist', comes out. Allow time whenever the compressor kicks back on for things to pressurize back up again. I will take up to an hour to do this, going through the circuit many times.

4. Don't forget outside shower. Flush the toilet lever as well...someone commented yesterday that without antifreeze, their toilet valve froze every year. I can only assume that they did not flush the toilet several times to clear the valve.

5. Blowing out with compressed air will NOT clear the pump. Once the lines are all cleared, two things still need to be done:
--Remove pressure, then disconnect the line from the pressure side/outlet of the pump. There will still be water in there that was pushed up against the pump in that little leg of pipe while you were blowing out everything else. After removal, apply pressure. This will clear that short section of pipe.

--Disconnect the suction side line at the pump, that comes from the fresh water tank. Turn on the pump for 10 or 20 seconds. The pump will eject any water that is sitting in it. While doing this I'll put my finger over the outlet of the pump for a couple seconds so pressure builds in it, then remove it and let the built up pressure release.

6. Don't forget to put your compressed air fitting on the black tank flush and hit that with compressed air for a few seconds. This will clear the anti-siphon valve, and the sprayer in the black tank.

7. With pressure still applied, go around all the fixtures and low points AGAIN and open them all. Then do it ... again.

8. Hit the traps with a couple cups of antifreeze. Though what I actually do is just unscrew the sink traps, there are only two in most of our trailers, empty them, and reinstall. Easy peasy and gives me an opportunity to clean them out as well. I do put a few cups down the shower drain since I can't access that one to manually drain it.

I have had nothing freeze and it gets to minus teens (F) around these parts.

The best part of this--after winterizing, I put everything back in service mode (undo the water heater bypass since it's no empty, reinstall all lines to pump)...and in the spring, fill up fresh tank, fill water heater via city connection, and hit the road without flushing and flushing and flushing the system to get the antifreeze out.

This works for me.

Thanks for this detail. Just bought the 6 gallon air compressor, so I will have a good continuous air flow as described (making sure not exceeding 45 psi). Given that I live in a colder area, I still want to also flush system with antifreeze, but bypassing the alde water heater. Has anybody got a good description of the valve settings, to do this? Or is it simply to turn everyone the other way, pump the antifreeze through lines, and turn them back?

[Menno]

Hi, thanks for this description. Do you bypass the water heater prior to pushing air through system, or can one push air through the water heater as well, without any harm?

[pcskier]

Originally Posted by Menno

Hi, thanks for this description. Do you bypass the water heater prior to pushing air through system, or can one push air through the water heater as well, without any harm?

No problem to push air through water heater as well, but I would:

1. Drain hot water heater first. (Yellow flip valve in the nest of valves in front of Alde boiler).

2. After draining water heater, close yellow valve, and drain/blow out rest of lines at fixtures and low points, one at a time. Do a couple of cycles.

3. Return to water heater tank, and open and close yellow valve several times, allowing it to pressurize and blow out a few times.

4. When it appears hot water tank is definitely empty, make sure drain valve is closed and go around to all the other fixtures and low points, several more times. When compressor kicks on to rebuild pressure in the compressor tank (this will happen often), wait until it shuts off before continuing to open fixtures and low points.

Continue on to all the other fixtures and low points...and go through the cycle several times. (this is why it's so handy to have a proper compressor fitting at the city water inlet. The schrader kind with the tire-fill chuck on the end of the hose make it take too long to constantly go back outside to pressurize the system a zillion times)

As for bypassing the heater if you wish, after it's drained...it'll either be a combination of the valves in front of the boiler, or on the side of the boiler (hard to see...not sure how the Classic 33 lays out) there is a bypass valve you would close. If you can't find it, just blow everything out as described. By the way, usually a couple of the valves by the Alde boiler are low points...you can see them coming out under the trailer, to confirm. Check your manual to confirm, but the best way to double-check...is to look under your trailer, and wherever you see a plastic tube sticking out...there is likely a low point valve inside the trailer above that location. You may have one or two low point valves located underneath as well, under/near the fresh water tank enclosure. And on the classic, I believe there is one in the compartment where your fill/dump valves are located. Just be very sure to find all the low points and blow them out as well.

The best tip I'd give is that this is like when backing up, the rule is get out and look...again and again. In this case, it's pressurize and blow out fixtures and low points...again and again. Can't do it "too many" times. Once your confident no water, or even 'mist' comes out when you first open a fixture...you are finally done.

[Menno]

Thanks for reply. I have 3 plastic pipes sticking out underneath alde waterheater. Two red , one white. One of the reds is definitely connected to yellow valve. So this will drain tank, I assume. Not sure on the other pipes, but guess I can find the valves connected to those and open these as well. My main problem is to find out which valve bypasses the water heater so I can avoid having antifreeze go through the heater.

[Menno]

Can anybody tell me which of these valves bypass the water heater for winterization. Hope pictures downloaded.

[pcskier]

Originally Posted by Menno

Can anybody tell me which of these valves bypass the water heater for winterization. Hope pictures downloaded.

I believe the bypass valve is further back on the left side...not shown in your picture.

The yellow is your water heater drain. The red on the right is a low point. Should be one more low point around there somewhere that is a white pipe.

[pcskier]

Originally Posted by pcskier

I believe the bypass valve is further back on the left side...not shown in your picture.

The yellow is your water heater drain. The red on the right is a low point. Should be one more low point around there somewhere that is a white pipe.

Here is a diagram showing the bypass valve locations and settings. Like I said before there is one hidden on the left further back (valve 1 in the diagram.) Once you've blown all the water out of your system and satisfied that the HW tank is empty, position the valves as directed and then you can draw antifreeze through your water pump without having any of it enter your hot water tank.

In the spring, go ahead and flush system well before turning these valves back to service mode. Then flush some more, including the 'hot' side of a fixture, to draw water through the valves that were closed and make sure everything is flushed well.



See your manual, page 8-14.

[Airhead59]

2005 Safari 25. Here's my procedure, works great for me:

- Isolate HW heater, drain, flush and drain
- Empty freshwater tank (using plastic drain petcock between passenger side wheels) and run faucet until pump is until sucking mostly air. Turn off pump.
- Drain h & c plumbing at brass petcocks between passenger side wheels. Close all petcocks.
- Remove filter on pump inlet and replace with nipple and clear hose. Run hose into gal jug of water system antifreeze.
- Turn on pump
- Open each faucet (h & c) one at a time; lav, shower, BA sink, kitchen sink and sprayer, until deep pink discharge. Monitor antifreeze level in gal jug. This will also replace water in traps w/antifreeze.
- Open h & c plumbing drain brass petcocks until deep pink discharge. Shut off pump.
- Replace filter and suction line on pump inlet
- Empty grey & blackwater tanks as usual, but flush blackwater tank with garden hose on dump station hydrant running into lav
- Add 1/4 cup of vegetable oil to lav bowl to maintain seal.

Did this last year w/o incident. Albuquerque temps dip into the teens in winter and I'm parked in the shade. I am able to do all my plumbing with one gal of antifreeze. In the spring, I fill the FW tank, run a gallon or two through each h & c fixture, reset HW bypass, sanitize the system with bleach, rinse, and off I go.

[Milo1952]

Thank you all for your suggestions and advice. Last year I simply blew out my lines and everything was fine.
This year I decided to do what many of you do and took the precaution of adding antifreeze as well.Don't want to damage the water pump.
It is cheap compared to re-plumbing the trailer after it freezes.
Did not add it to the hot water tank as I believe that is overkill.
The little bit of H2O remaining in the tank has plenty of room to expand without damaging anything.
Likewise no pink stuff in any of the water tanks. Have never seen that mentioned anywhere before.
Thanks again
Harry

[guskmg]

Here are some tips not mentioned. After you blow the system and open and close each valve leave all valves open and let air flow through for a while. This will dry the lingering water droplets. Then, leave the valves open, this will eliminate any valves from freezing. Be sure and prop open the toilet valve. Sure you can close off everything for spring, but if something is going to freeze it will be the valves not the PEX. In an emergency, such as heat failure when it is freezing, open all the drains and valves and let the temperature drop. Again don't forget prop open the toilet valve. Most likely if you are fast enough in doing the above nothing will freeze because any water left behind will have a place to expand. Last winter, I blew the water system, but did not pump the water out of the pump. I later, had a heater failure, but had not disconnected the water pump and pumped it dry. When I opened up the pump fittings residual water had already evaporated. One year when winter camping the temperature dropped real fast and I had to run get more propane when I got back the pump blew a fuse because it was frozen. After heating up the trailer some, I changed the 10 A pump fuse and the pump started right up. On my trailer the pump and plumbing was under the closet floor a real PITA to get to, so I put in a 10" hole and a marine deck plate. Now, it's a snap for getting to the water system for winterizing. Air is far the safest and convenient method.
guskmg

[kpm]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

In the beginning I made the mistake of putting the pink stuff in the crapper over the Winter...two Seasons and it leaked like the White House.👎😂
Propylene glycol or ethanol not good for the seals over time. Same for the black and fresh tanks.

Bob
🇺🇸

This is a good tip. Any special kind of oil? Do you have any problems with the oil getting sticky (polymerization)?

[Too tall]

Originally Posted by B00merang

ok..one more, only because it seems to be the simplest: When I leave my campsites to head home, I open the bottom drain to my water tank...by the time I've bounced home, its empty. So when winterizing I leave the water tank alone, take out the bottom plug of the water heater to drain it, and disconnect the intake hose to the pump and let it suck up 1-2 gall of antifreeze while opening bathroom, kitchen, and shower faucets till they run pink. Reconnect the pump, and you're done.

......and the outside shower.....and use a wee length of garden hose to douse the black tank clean out with AF.

That works for me, knock on wood, twice. - Newbie

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by Rzrbrn

I thought all RV antifreeze is the same stuff. What brand is "Good" RV antifreeze? Walmart, Amazon, Camping World? From Amazon: Camco RV Antifreeze Concentrate - 36 ounces of Concentrate Makes 1 Gallon of Antifreeze, Just Add Fresh Water, or maybe RV and Marine Antifreeze by Chemworld RV?

I have been using whatever is on the shelf, which has seemed to work ok, but I would rather not take the chance of pipes freezing just to save a couple of bucks.

I had a half gallon of RV Antifrezze from last winter I put the gallon in my garage freezer overnight it didn’t frezze. Not using it I just wanted to see the effect of unused leftover. As a precaution after draining my hot water tank utilizing gravity about a gallon remains in the tank I then siphon the remaining water using a small clear plastic flexible tubing.

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by Rzrbrn

I thought all RV antifreeze is the same stuff. What brand is "Good" RV antifreeze? Walmart, Amazon, Camping World? From Amazon: Camco RV Antifreeze Concentrate - 36 ounces of Concentrate Makes 1 Gallon of Antifreeze, Just Add Fresh Water, or maybe RV and Marine Antifreeze by Chemworld RV?

I have been using whatever is on the shelf, which has seemed to work ok, but I would rather not take the chance of pipes freezing just to save a couple of bucks.

Don't use RV antifreeze that contains alcohol. Absolute Zero Propylene Glycol RV antifreeze, without ethanol will lubricate valves and seals and protect to a lower temperature, while still being non-toxic.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

First off, it *is* perfectly possible to blow all the water out of the water pump without taking it apart. That's as in completely dry. It's not quick and you do a couple of passes to get it dry. Blowing it out involves air into the fresh water tank and blocking the exhaust port on the fresh water tank (you also have to turn on the pump .... )

Next off, anti-freeze taste / smell tolerance varies a lot between people. We spent pretty much all summer with residual taste / smell in the fresh water system. That was after many days of flushing in the spring and no anti-freeze in the fresh water tank. I can't imagine how many weeks of flushing it would take to get it out of the fresh water tank.

Modern trailers (just when that is ... who knows) have PEX plastic plumbing in them. The pipes, pipe fittings, and pipe connections are all freeze tolerant. I had a house with issues and PEX. After multiple freeze events .... never a problem. It was a PIA not to have water when things were frozen, but no broken pipes. Older trailers have plastic pipe, but metal fittings, so not freeze proof. Even older models have metal pipes so very much not freeze proof.

Metal valves and faucets are vulnerable to freezing. They are just as vulnerable at 28F degrees as at -40 degrees. Once the water freezes, you have a problem. You do not want water left in the shower / kitchen / bath / outside shower faucets or shower heads. How much water is a problem? If it's enough to fill a cross section of the valve, that might be enough to create an issue. If it fills the valve body ... yikes ....

Blowing water out is a function of air volume. That's different than the gallons of tank a compressor has. The unit I used is rated for 2 CFM at 90PSI. It's smaller than some out there, but much bigger than a lot of compact units. On a larger trailer, really getting the lines dry (fully flushing them of water) is not a quick thing, even with a couple of CFM. Figure on this taking a while ....

Bob

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by kpm

This is a good tip. Any special kind of oil? Do you have any problems with the oil getting sticky (polymerization)?

BION...I started out the first Season with what I found in the slide-out pantry...olive oil🤓, spent some time in the purposely built dog house, and bought my own bottle of Crisco, two table spoons every Fall does it.
I'm sure other options will work, dielectric grease, food grade sillycone...wear gloves.
I've also seen the recommendation of wedging the flapper open...stinky.🤢
Bob
🇺🇸

[Tony Lee]

Now I just blow the lines, steady 35psi, keeping one line open while opening all faucets one at a time. Blow the HWT thru the pressure relief valve. LP drains open.

Given that the pressure relief valve is near the top of the tank, how does this method get the HWS tank drained?

[bimpy]

I disconnect the hose from the tank to pump. Then attach a 3 ft length of hose to the pump, put it down in jug of antifreeze. Takes two gallon to get to everything. Also keeps antifreeze out of your fresh water tank

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by Tony Lee

Given that the pressure relief valve is near the top of the tank, how does this method get the HWS tank drained?

Look...😂👍

Bob
🇺🇸