tiger foam insulation

[urbanfood]

i was looking at the 200K airstream posted on another thread and saw "tiger foam insulation". never heard of it before but i was curious so i googled it and here is the link;

Tiger Foam | Spray Foam Insulation Kits

it looks interesting. anyone use it before?

[vinstream]

I have used IT! WARNING>>>>WARNING>>>> DO NOT USE FAST RISE!!!! IT WILL BEND ALUMINUM AND POP RIVITS FASTER THAN YOU CAN Say OH-S&^T....

The SLOW RISE works great for many areas of the trailer but not all.

Vin...

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by vinstream

I have used IT! WARNING>>>>WARNING>>>> DO NOT USE FAST RISE!!!! IT WILL BEND ALUMINUM AND POP RIVITS FASTER THAN YOU CAN Say OH-S&^T....

The SLOW RISE works great for many areas of the trailer but not all.

Vin...

Hi vinstream;
As usual, some may not believe us. In the past I did a post in reference to spray or pour foams. Being involved over the years in boat building I have seen pour foam distort 1/4" thick fiberglass structural shell of the boat. Pour foam cannot be used in enclosed spaces in a fragile shell.
As the foam reacts with catalyst it generates lot of heat. Aluminum has a high expansion rate when heated. When a aluminum sheet is riveted onto the frame form, the only way it can expand is to bulge out. This happens because the heavier frame will absorb the heat at much slower rate, being further away from the heat source. This creates expansion rate discrepancies. Not only the heat created by the reaction with catalyst, but the pressures developed by the expanding foam will bulge out the aluminum skin. Once the foam sets up into a rigid state it will not allow the aluminum skin to return to the original shape as it cools down.

I have reinforced the tub in my Argosy by building a 3 millimeter plywood enclosure, which would precisely fill the area which normally would be hollow once the tub was installed. With the tub out of the trailer, up side down and top open I had to pour six individual layers of urethane foam in order to minimize heat distortion to the plastic tub.

Spray foam in a very slow drying rate could be used on a non enclosed surface. In a quick drying rate the heat will still deform the skin, and once is set up it will lock in that distortion. Unless you can find a cold set foam, there are cheaper and easier ways to insulate your trailer.
Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[thecatsandi]

Originally Posted by boatdoc

Spray foam in a very slow drying rate could be used on a non enclosed surface. In a quick drying rate the heat will still deform the skin, and once is set up it will lock in that distortion. Unless you can find a cold set foam, there are cheaper and easier ways to insulate your trailer.
Thanks, "Boatdoc"

What about rigid foam?

[purman]

I am replacing parts of my floor in my '68 it has a spray on foam under the floor.. not sure if that is original or not... I will put some pics up later in my thread, when i tear a little more floor out

After lunch sometime you can see them here..http://www.airforums.com/forums/f44/...dor-44644.html

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by purman

I am replacing parts of my floor in my '68 it has a spray on foam under the floor.. not sure if that is original or not... I will put some pics up later in my thread, when i tear a little more floor out

After lunch sometime you can see them here..http://www.airforums.com/forums/f44/...dor-44644.html

Hi purman; It is OK to spray foam under the floor which is from 5/8 to 3/4" thick. For as long you do not enclose [seal off] the area it will not bubble your floor, even if you did use polyurethane foam.

What must be understood is how the foam set up [drying] occurs. Large enclosed area will pressurize even when you have a relief hole through which you pour the mix through. Catalyst reacts with the base but it needs air to set up. Therefore the extreme perimeters of the pocket will set up [dry up] first, leaving the center still wet because the air access is cut off by setting foam on the outer perimeters. The center still being in liquid form will eventually set up, for as long there is some air to access the mix. No air access, no set up [exception is very small areas]. If you want to dispute this, pour the mixed urethane foam into a pipe and close off the ends. Couple of years later you will still have liquid in the pipe. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by thecatsandi

What about rigid foam?

Hi Michelle; I am not sure what you mean by rigid foam. Are you talking about sheet foam? Please explain and I will reply. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[altamont]

I have also heard that spray foam on walls will disintegrate with movement, turning your insulation into dust. Maybe the new stuff doesn't do that but AS still uses the batts and that has worked for many years. And can be removed/replaced when damage occurs (perish the thought).

[vinstream]

There are three types of spray fomes in the market place today... The eco foam is what we uses at Vinstream... Its so-bean base non toxic and does not uses a "heat" chemical reaction. The statement above the about the foam turning to dust? If parts are moving at this rate the trailer should not be on the road! When used correctly the foam becomes a part of the system... Just like "SIP" panels used in the construction of homes. The combination of the foam and aluminum becomes stronger together the two parts alone! Since we uses an all aluminum chassis system we can and do uses the spray foam in the floor areas. I would not recomend this to be used if you have a wood-sub-floor on steal system! I believe that do to the nature of the old floor system it need to breath! Spray foam should only be used on "NEW" or "Reword" parts... If a part is rusted and you spray foam on to it it will cause further damage. I stress this above all else! If you need to repair...replace... or redo areas you have used spray foam, be prepared to take 10 times longer to fix or work on! There is no good or even poor ways to remove the spray foam! I worked on a new high-end coach that was hit on the side and it took two weeks until we could determin what parts we needed to fix or replace because you can not see what was damaged.... Vin

[thecatsandi]

Originally Posted by boatdoc

Hi Michelle; I am not sure what you mean by rigid foam. Are you talking about sheet foam? Please explain and I will reply. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

yes rigid sheet foam.

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by thecatsandi

yes rigid sheet foam.

Hi Michelle;
Rigid board/sheet foam may have considerable insulating R value, but it is depended on it's thickness and installation process. With this said, one may or may not benefit much depending where and how it is used. On the negative side inability of the rigid foam to withstand friction, twisting and vibration is undesirable. It works best with air gaps on both sides and a minimal temperature conductive transition area through metal, such as aluminum ribs. Aluminum or steel rib will transfer the temperature to which it is exposed to. Therefore minimizing the transient areas will make the foam more efficient. The bigger problem presents itself when attaching the foam sheet at the edges to the frame which has to support the foam board. If the section is relatively free of vibrations, the installation can be made successful when using flexible types of adhesives. Using the sheet foam in the walls of a Airstream can present more problems than it is worth, therefore I would not recommend doing it. Level of fragmentation would be high from vibration and produced dust can create a very hazardous environment inside your AS. While we cannot visually see the vibrations and flexing in the shell, it does occur. Other forms of insulating can be equally effective, much simpler to install when considering
obstructions such as wires or pipes inside the walls.

I am unable to comment on the TIGER FOAM which Vinstream mentioned because I am not familiar with it at all.

I have insulated my Argosy with Prodex. Under the floor I have 1" foam strips which provide dead air space and to which Prodex is attached to.
In a large areas extra strips were added to prevent sagging of Prodex.
All edges were attached and sealed solidly with 3M 5200 adhesive. This created 1" high dead air space between the Prodex and Aluminum clad plywood floor. The outer skin, on the inside of the trailer shell have 1/2" strips glued on with 3M 5200. Center supporting strips were glued in all large rib section to provide a uniform dead air space across each section.
After attaching Prodex to the foam strips the edges of Prodex were glued to the sides of the ribs and trimmed 1/8" above the rib height. The installed inner skins compressed the 1/8" excess easily and created a second dead air space on the inside of the trailer. In the direct sun and 95 degree heat I can only run my 15000 BTU Carrier AC at low and minimum setting and my wife still complains about freezing. This is exactly why I have chosen a product which is easy to work with, it is relatively cheap and it is very effective when dead air space is provided on both sides.

I am not sure if any condensation at all occurs within the dead air space under the floor, but my concerns are very negligible knowing that I have a aluminum clad plywood on the floor which is sealed on all edges anyway with Aluminum C and H trim and 3M 5200. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[Brett - TTT]

We have had two trailers in for segment replacement in which someone had installed spray foam for insulation during a restoration. In both cases the foam was very well bonded to the interior and exterior skins. In order to replace the damaged segments we had to disolve the foam using nasty chemicals. In one case the insurance company totaled the trailer rather than paying the cost to remove the foam. We also noted that there was heavy filiform corrosion on the backside of the aluminum in the places where water could accumulate.

We insulate with Polyisocyanurate foam panels to achieve about R-12 in our projects.

Brett Hall
Timeless Travel Trailers

Timeless Travel Trailers

[Aerowood]

Thanks Brett. I was going to ask you about how you insulated but forgot when I was at your place with the DENCO unit. Do you put in an airspace between the outside skin and the poly.

Kip

[Brett - TTT]

We use an aluminum faced Polyiso foam with a high glass fiber and a high carbon black content.

The aluminum face allows us to set it directly to the aluminum skins without worrying about any corrosion issues. It also allows us to tape all of the foam to foam and foam to aluminum joints with aluminum joint tape to form a vapor barrier throughout the trailer in order to keep the water away from the outer skin.

The glass fibers make it easier to work and stronger.

The carbon black decreases the flammablity of the foam. Allowing you more time to get out in the event of a fire.

Polyisocyanurate, while sounding terrible, is a very green product in its manufacture and its use. It does not use CFCs for blowing agents. It does not out-gas nasties into your confined cabin environment under normal conditions nor under superheated conditions such as a fire.

The downside to insulating with this product is that it is time consuming. It takes 3 to 4 times as long to install as fiberglass batts.

[kidjedi]

Originally Posted by Brett - TTT

We use an aluminum faced Polyiso foam with a high glass fiber and a high carbon black content.

Any idea where a regular person might obtain PIC panels? I am having an incredibly hard time sourcing the material, especially in a small enough quantity for just my 25' airstream.