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Old 02-11-2016, 07:24 AM   #15
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My Skydeck is almost as bad off as your Cutter and I too am not livid, more excited for the project (or is that breathing all the mold?)

I am happy that I am not the only one going thru this and I will NEVER do as complete a repair as you are doing. I will probably create an RV similar to how it came from the factory: "It works now, just don't let it get wet"

I was lamenting to my mechanic that there is an almost identical Skydeck for sale that had been garage kept for only $15K more than I paid. He reminded me that the construction was the same for both so at least I know where my problems are. That one (which has finally sold apparently) they will take out into the weather expecting no problems and then the damage begins. I can seal mine up and repair the mold and I am done and aware of the issue. And I have $15K saved.

-Randy
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Old 02-11-2016, 07:41 AM   #16
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Periodic maintenance at least once a year on all rv products is absolutely a necessity. Poor construction can be rectified by maintenance in most cases which would include modifications if possible. I twenty years at least one if the previous owners should have noticed the problem while doing yearly inspections. Too bad you are suffering for their negligence, I hope you get it fixed and are able to enjoy.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:27 PM   #17
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update - moving along

Hi all,
The work is slowly progressing, though thereís been interruptions. Like the recent snow in the northeast. See the size of the snow shovel below. Took me six hours to clear out the driveway.


Then it took me time a few days later as I couldnít get myself away from these ice crystals on the top of my car.



But then Airstream interrupted as I uncovered this. They cut through two-thirds (maybe three fourths?) of a main support in order to push a wire through, crippling its strength. This support, by the way, is right next to the passenger seat.


They did this in order to get this plastic pipe through. But thereís several easy solutions:
1) Get a smaller pipe!
2) Find some other way to protect the wire.
3) Put the receptacle on the other side of the support so you donít need a hole!



I also decided that the window frame needed more support than merely foam, as Airstream designed it. In the below picture, you can see where I attached 2x2ís (theyíre actually planed to 1.5Ē x 1.5Ē) to the edge of the fiberglass. The wood is completely encapsulated in epoxy. Then I got to wondering why Airstream couldnít have merely lifted that horizontal aluminum frame thatís only a couple of inches below a little higher? With only compressible foam to support the window, any movement in the wall is going to cause leaks. The wood now makes this very solid.


This is the bottom edge along the floor. I epoxied this 2x2 to the aluminum frame below and to the fiberglass wall. Of course it makes the bottom of the fiberglass wall far more solid, but I really put it in in order to have a solid backing to attach the final, interior wall.


In goes the foam. I used that standard pink foam from Home Depot. In order to get the foam to the proper thickness, I attached 1/8Ē plywood to the back side. I used Gliddenís Gripper paint primerówhich has turned out to be an excellent adhesive for foam, and also the least expensive. (You can see a great video on YouTube by a woman who did comparisons amongst many glues, many of them made for foam and much more expensive. Gripper was easily in first place.) I also covered the plywood with the primer to waterproof it.

I decided to attach the foam to the fiberglass by using nothing more than standard construction adhesive. It seemed better than a solid glue because with this adhesive I could use up and down, single lines of adhesive (I hope thatís clear. Sorry, I didnít take a picture). That will allow for a slight airspace between the lines of adhesive giving a path for water. Meaning, if water ever gets into the wall again, it will run down straight to the bottom of the wall and exit though small holes I am leaving at the bottom.

Some of the foam below is white. Itís supposed to be pink. Thatís because some of it got inadvertently painted by Ö


Ö my 80 year-old mother. She was painting something else for me, but got paint happy and painted everything. She canít get enough of this type of work.


When cutting the foam, I purposefully left a half-inch gap around all the edge so that I could fill them with spray-foam and get a really tight fit.


The almost completed wall is below. Between the two windows is a primed piece of Masonite (some people just call it hardboard). It seems a lot more solid and stable than thin plywood. Itís supposed to be 1/8Ē (thatís what the luan was), but Iím putting in 3/16Ē. I wonít know if itís ok until I put in the windows. If itís wrong, itís all got to be cut again. But I think it will be fine.


Below shows how well the spray foam sealed everything. The white foam on the left is still the original foam; there was no rot under it, so I left it. The narrow strip of pink is just a filler. Itís just how it worked out since the pink foam isnít that wide. Anyway, this has made for a really tight-fitting, sealed wall and Iím pretty pleased with it.


One more thing: After cutting off the excess foam, I uncovered a few pockets of uncured foam, and overnight, a couple of these obscene-looking things popped out:


While the masoniteís being painted in the basement (way too cold to paint in the RV), I started the floor under the driver. Just as I expected, the insulation is very sad here. I pulled out the foam next to the wall; youíre looking at steel. Under the driverís feet thereís some kind of rubber glued over the foam. Iím not touching that.


Below you can see huge gaps between the foam and the steel framing. No consideration to actually doing the job rightójust in getting the job done. With this much air space, the insulation is doing very little. I will be cutting all this existing foam to a half inch all around as I did the wall and filling with spray foam.


One more thing. Three indispensable tools, all by Dremel: The center saw was used to cut the wall covering in strips to pull it off. It saved lots of time. Itís a really easy saw to handle. And the saw on the right has a thousand uses. The two biggest time savers were in, sort of, peeling the wood from the fiberglass siding where it wasnít fully rotten, and it works really well for cutting foam.


Thanks for reading. And thanks for everyoneís comments. I know I donít answer them directly, but I love reading them.

One more thing: when I first started this thread, I had no intention of continuing to update it. Donít know how that happened.

And I find myself starting to put time into this project as I finally feel like Iím making headway.

David
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Old 02-16-2016, 08:05 AM   #18
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Thanks for the great pics and keeping us updated, especially love the obscene things popping out

-Randy
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Old 03-13-2016, 04:13 PM   #19
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Yet another update

Hi all,

Time to update.

Below is the rusted steel under the driverís seat all cleaned up and painted.


The white foam needed to be weighted down or the spray foam would make if float up.


The inner wall is finally in. I used simple, exterior paint on this. I like the simplicity of it. The seams will be capped with molding. Also, the new subfloor. This wood, even with all the holes for the seat and the seat belts, was actually easy to measure and cut since the frame is perfectly squareónot like a house.



I paid seven US dollars each for the suction cups below. They allowed me to set the window back in place from the inside by myself with very little effort.


In goes the upper cabinet.


This is above the driverís seat. Airstream had put in no insulation at all here. I started with spray foam, but itís so big it seemed ridiculous. So I finished with fiberglass. And while I was putting it in Ö


Ö I found this. I guess Airstream couldnít find any real insulation, so they stuffed the ceiling full of leftover carpeting.


Below is what I spoke about in an earlier post. Anyone who knows anything about RVs knows that this bulging is a sure sign of delamination.

I didnít know this at the time. The dealer knew this. Again, they waited for someone ignorant like me to take this RV off their hands.
By the way, that peeling dark red stripe: I found that that pulled off easily. So now, instead of that mess, it is an all gray stripe.


I talked about this before too. This is the outside cap over the driverís seat between the cab and the side of the RV where the most water was coming in on the driverís side. You can see how weeny the caulk is and how it isnít completely sealed.


This is how I redid it. Lotís on the RV itself, lots on the underside of the cap. So we end up with caulk oozing out everywhere after it is screwed on. Itís not going to leak. Take note Airstream: itís not that hard.



Before I showed the driverís side windowóhow little sealant there was. This is now the passenger side. Again, practically nothing.


And here it is higher up. The yellow arrow is pointing to the caulk that was put on from the outside. The red arrow points to where the main sealant should beóbut isnít. Thatís a full, two feet that completely bare.

To quote from Airstreamís email to me: ďWhile we pride ourselves in making a superior product, we can only guarantee the initial quality of the motorhome against factory defects.Ē

Is this the superior product that Airstream is talking about? And isnít this a factory defect?

The email said it is up to the owner to reseal the ďseams, windows, and roof components.Ē

To reseal this window (or, I should say ďsealĒ, not ďresealĒ, since it was never done at the factory), requires that the window be removed. And in order to remove the window, the dashboard must be removed. So this is yearly maintenance I supposeóremoving the dashboard.


When I put the windows back in and sealed them, I used butyl tape. I didnít think a single strip was enough, so I slit the tape down the middle and put in an additional 50%. And so after tightening down the frame, the butyl oozed out as in the picture below. I am certain that window is not going to leak. Just a few dollars more and very little additional time BY THE MANUFACTURER could have saved this motorhome (yes, owner maintenance is still certainly necessary).


Just a shot of the new window framing as I also did on the driverís side.


This is inexcusable. This is a bolt that holds the seat belt to the floor. Yes, itís supposed to be straight like the others were.


Hereís the hole. I mean holes. The bolt went through the bottom left hole instead of going through the top right holeówhich is the correct hole. Why there are two holes I, of course, donít know. What I do know is that when I took out the bolt, there was no nut on the other end. I guess being at that angle made it too hard, so they just left it offóof a seatbelt. Also notice, again, the great insulation jobóďworkmanshipĒ.


All cleaned up and painted.


The picture below is the floor in the living room after I removed the insulation. Itís a lot of rotten wood and rusted steel. In the red square below (itís hard to make out), youíre looking at the top of the propane tank. Yes, the floor rusted clear through. Now I have another big job.

The sheet metal here is really weak. I made that hole with my bare hands. I think the only way to fix this is to screw some kind of small angle iron along the bottom edge all the way around to support whatever I decide to use to replace this mess.

This work goes really slowly. There are so many details to constantly deal with. For as much time as I have already put into this thing, I could have been well on my way to having built myself a new one, a better one than this.

OK, so Iíve been kind of holding on with this mess so far. But now itís getting to be a little too much and Iím near ready to take this thing to the junk yard. Itís really discouraging.




David -- still working
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Old 03-13-2016, 10:53 PM   #20
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Your doing a great job!

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

Windows, doors, floors and walls look awesome! Just keep focusing on one little thing at a time. Just think you'll have the best motor home on the road with no issues. Now that rocks! I really like how your tackling the project- outside of the box, but inside. 😁😀
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Old 03-14-2016, 07:03 AM   #21
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Wow, you need to be commended for your hard work.
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Old 03-14-2016, 10:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daa1111 View Post
This is the outside cap over the driver’s seat between the cab and the side of the RV where the most water was coming in on the driver’s side. You can see how weeny the caulk is and how it isn’t completely sealed.


This is how I redid it. Lot’s on the RV itself, lots on the underside of the cap. So we end up with caulk oozing out everywhere after it is screwed on. It’s not going to leak. Take note Airstream: it’s not that hard.
Very impressive, I fear I am going to be following you. The ceiling leaks have trashed at least one section of luan and both the drive and passenger sides of the cab have gotten water in the same area as you. The luan is separating from the fiberglass just outside the cup holders on the two walls. The fridge vents are also letting the fiberglass delaminate. I am thinking of doing one of those resin repairs where you mix and inject and compress until the resin drys. This will encapsulate the affected wood so no rot should propagate to other areas.

Once It's back to flat I will do the caulk loading of the cap over the seam between front and side pieces. I drilled out the rivets on the piece on my RV and covered it with duct tape. I was thinking I should keep up the original attachments and learn to rivet. Not familiar with even how to judge if you can re-rivet the areas removed. I have seen pop rivet guns at the big box stores. Why did you choose to screw the sides back on instead?

-Randy
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Old 03-15-2016, 12:53 PM   #23
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1965 30' Sovereign
1969 23' Safari
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Again, WOW. Thanks for the inspiration. I'm glad you keep posting. Very interesting the way you've tackled this project.
It puts the repairs I am doing on my 1965 Airstream trailer in perspective. I'm so glad I have an aluminum body and "only" a rotten floor, failed appliances, bad plumbing, questionable electrical and sagged out axles.
I hope others who are considering purchasing a motorhome or trailer of this type of construction will see your posts before buying. You are probably saving someone from great hardship and potential health and safety issues.
I guess they all need work. At least you'll know this unit inside and out when your done. Literally!
We feel your pain and applaud your accomplishments.
Thank you for posting!
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:16 AM   #24
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Hi Randy,

You have rivets holding this piece of molding? Mine was screwed on. Do you know if the rivets were original by Airstream, or did someone else possibly do it? Because checking the caulk under this critical piece seems to me to be part of periodic maintenance and so probably shouldn't be riveted. It should be easily removable by stainless screws.

Anyway, you have nothing to gain by using rivets. And in my opinion, they're more leak prone than screws. If they ever loosen up, you can't just tighten them; you have to replace them. And after replacing them once or twice, the holes will become larger and larger, and so you may have to drill new holes and patch the old ones. Or use larger rivets. Also, a normal pop-rivet, which is what you're talking about, has a hole right down the center which then needs to be caulked from the outside. Not the best way to go--in my opinion.

Rivets are for something that normally isn't meant to be taken apart.

About injecting epoxy: unfortunately, my RV was way beyond that kind of a fix. The wood was completely saturated and falling apart in my fingers, even on the inside. But as fate would have it, the inside issues were behind interior furniture that I couldn't see until I moved it (and after I bought the RV). And when I unfastened the outside fiberglass skin, large pieces of rotten wood just fell out. Even some of the Styrofoam fell apart in my fingers. I was just thankful to see aluminum framing instead of wood.

Strange thing about the website you have a link to is that they don't talk about surfaces being wet or how dry they need to be (at least I couldn't find it). Most epoxies won't stick to wet surfaces, but there are some epoxies that will, though they're pretty expensive. I can't tell if theirs will. You can find this kind of epoxy at marine suppliers for boats. I hope I'm not telling you anything you already know, but you just need to make sure you get an epoxy that is thin enough to go through the injection tubing. Epoxy won't hurt styrofoam, but most thinners/solvents will eat right through it. I'm thinking that denatured alchohol is safe on styrofoam, but I'm not sure about that. (I use alchohol as a thinner. So much safer and more pleasant to work with than most solvents.)

Anyway, I think that kind of fix is excellent and the right way to go for simple delamination. I wish I could have done it that way.

Probably most of the work will be in figuring out a way to press the fiberglass flat against the RV while the epoxy cures. And probably no need to buy expensive clamps that that website sells. Just wood and wedges would work. I wish you luck with it.

David
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:49 AM   #25
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Thanks for the input. I see your point on screws. And I have no expertise on replacing rivets.

The rivets are original, the whole vehicle is riveted on the outside. The caps that cover the seams both between the front and side, and the back and side panels are then double-sided sticky taped and riveted before the full body paint. Then the outside is silicone caulked. It may be that they thought there was only the caulking needing maintenance everything else would hold. But all 4 caps in the 4 corners of my RV are missing rivets. My SkyDeck furniture is also missing rivets to the patio surround, even the awning rail that the surround is supported by is missing rivets at the front.

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That is likely where all the leaking started. The rail got caught by a tree or just blew around in the airstream (pun intended). The leaks got the wood inside wet which swelled and popped the rivets lower down and more leaks. Fun! Can't wait until summer to fix the holes after the wood drys. In the mean time I have taped much of it off to prevent more leaks.

Looking at the early photos of my driving the RV from rainy Missouri to sunny California it looks like the swollen wood on the driver's seat area was not leaking yet. Something happened here and it's only been raining since maybe December.

-Randy
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Old 03-16-2016, 10:28 PM   #26
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Very impressive

I commend you on your effort and workmanship.
You have inspired those who can, to do.
Great Job.
Jim
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Old 03-18-2016, 04:59 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daa1111 View Post
Hi all,

Time to update.

Below is what I spoke about in an earlier post. Anyone who knows anything about RVs knows that this bulging is a sure sign of delamination.

I didnít know this at the time. The dealer knew this. Again, they waited for someone ignorant like me to take this RV off their hands.
By the way, that peeling dark red stripe: I found that that pulled off easily. So now, instead of that mess, it is an all gray stripe.


David -- still working
It's amazing what we miss when we go to purchase a vehicle costing thousands of dollars; but when your in the moment and there is so much to take in, especially with RV's and first time buyers, its best to take someone with no skin in the deal to have an objective view. I missed my whole sub floor debacle.

Oh well

With your next RV purchase you will be a pro and be able to detect anything.

Cheers
Tony
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Old 03-26-2016, 08:10 AM   #28
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Another quick update

Hi all,

Short update:

See the picture. Nothing to salvage here. But easy access to the propane tank on the right and transmission on the left. Luckily, the actual framing is in good condition. Just surface rust.

The way this is built from bottom to top is:
1) Very thin sheet metal that had been pushed into a slot that is part of the underside of the steel framingóessentially sealing it tight.
2) Wood (luan) on top of the sheet metal. I have no idea why this is here.
3) The steel framing along with foam insulation.
4) OSB subfloor.
Iím sure Airstream thought they were building some kind of floor structure here. But what they really built was a water tank with a wood lining.

When water gets into the floor (and it WILL get in), it canít drain out. And so itís absorbed into the wood right next to the sheet metal, constantly keeping the metal wet. Now we have a guaranteed, easy recipe for rot and rust.

Simple, simple solution (for original construction): keep the sheet metal. Absolutely get rid of the wood. Drill several small holes in the sheet metal to allow for water drainage. Place a thin and light (aluminum or plastic or whatever) grating over the sheet metal so that if (when) water gets in, it doesnít get trapped between the foam and the sheet metal and can easily drain out of the holes we drilled. Then add foam and the subfloor. Problem solved. Simple. Cheap. Effective. It could have saved this floor.

The propane tank will be pulled out, cleaned up and painted. It looks pretty ugly at the moment, but again, itís mostly surface rust. Not a big job.




This is the sheet metal below the floor as I get closer to the kitchen. Iím so happy about this! I didnít want to see rust and rot go under the kitchen cabinets. Now, I donít have to remove them.


Two sections cleaned up. Notice the bolt being pointed to. This is structural, holding the floor to the chassis.



In the yellow circle, the wood floor was between the bolt head and the steel frame. In the red circle, you guessed it: luan. Rotting luan. Again, this is all structural. Not much I can do with the luan, but I did put in a new bolt flat against the frame so that at least the wood of the subfloor is no longer a factor.



If you look again two pictures up, you can see that these are really big spaces between the frames. The center opening above the transmission is something like 26Ēx36Ē. It might have been ok when the RV was new and everything was laminated together, but now that itís all fallen apart, it needs more support.

So I bolted in these pieces Ö



Ö to support this wood. This is pressure treated. It cuts the size of the hole in half.



The small hoist I used to lift out the propane tank.



Propane tank de-rusted and rustoleumed. It still needs another coat.



As for fixing the floor, Iím probably going to be using sheet metal and bending the edges to create a pan, then screw this to the framing. Thatís probably the best thing to do.

David
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