First Leak

[KJRitchie]

While in North Rim Campground a couple of weeks ago it rained most of one day. I noticed a small run of water on the rear window screen behind the dinette of my 25fb. It ran down to where the curbside inside latch was located. I placed a towel there to prevent water from soaking into the mouse fur. I have a rear awning on that window and it was deployed.

During a break in the rain I wiped down the exterior above and below the awning. The leak stopped.

Funny thing it started to rain again and I didn't see the leak reappear.

When I got home I washed the AS and applied a lot of water on the rear window, awning rolled up. No leak showing. Maybe it only leaks when the awning is deployed.

Do you think one of the awning attachments is casing the leak? There was no water in the lower window channel just a drip from the upper window channel running down the window screen. I checked under the dinette seats and all was dry.

Any suggestions what to check?

Kelvin

[AWCHIEF]

Could be when deployed the awning bracket is pulling away from the side and making an access point for water.

[dkottum]

Get out your Moisture Detection Meter and probe through the vinyl into the plywood subfloor below that area, to see what you have there. If it's a significant leak that's where it will end up, the worst possible place.

Can be coming from any of multiple openings in the shell above the window, and if conditions are right it can be condensation inside the trailer or between the bulkhead (you were a Sailor).

[KJRitchie]

I have the trailer at home getting ready to go out for the weekend and it rained heavily last night. As precaution I placed a towel on the window by the latch and this morning it was slightly damp.

Looking from the latch straight up is the curbside clearance light above. Since the leak is flowing directly on the screen which is where the window is attached to the inner shell I'm suspecting the clearance light but also a curved panel is riveted adjacent. The top window caulking seems OK. I will inspect it better this weekend. I hope I find something there.

I may get some Captain Tolley's Cure and apply to those rivets and then reseal the clearance lights. The caulking looks good around the window. I suppose once I remove the clearance light casing if that is the leak point I should be able to detect moisture there. Is there insulation in that area. I would imagine it is wet.

So far no evidence of moisture under the dinette using my Sonin.

Kelvin

[dkottum]

Another stronger possibility is the awning support arm bracket mounting screws and rivets, seal around them and the pop rivet center holes.

[perryg114]

Check the floor as well. Water hides there.

Perry

[dznf0g]

That one, IMO and actual experience, is actually pretty easy. Whenever water is running down the screen, the leak is NOT the window nor it's frame. In order for water to get to the screen it has to run down the INSIDE skin as it overlaps the window frame. (in this case, wick to the inside of the window frame, through the insulation, as there is no inner skin) So the leak is higher than the window frame. Since you were stationary at the time look directly above and in line with the water drip line down the screen. I would start with the awning rail...look directly above the water line on the screen for gaps. Then look up at any other rivet(s) and/or marker lights directly above the water line on the screen. Since there are no ribs above the window, the water will pretty much follow gravity to the screen, even if some is wicked by the insulation up there.

I would check the joint of the clam shell to the white part of the roof, but in my experience, those leaks run to the sides, down to the floor where the clamshell meets the straight side.

This all assumes that you were level in both directions and stationary.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by dkottum

Another stronger possibility is the awning support arm bracket mounting screws and rivets, seal around them and the pop rivet center holes.

This wouldn't show up as water running down the screen, IMO. Wet floor, yes.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

I have the trailer at home getting ready to go out for the weekend and it rained heavily last night. As precaution I placed a towel on the window by the latch and this morning it was slightly damp.

Looking from the latch straight up is the curbside clearance light above. Since the leak is flowing directly on the screen which is where the window is attached to the inner shell I'm suspecting the clearance light but also a curved panel is riveted adjacent. The top window caulking seems OK. I will inspect it better this weekend. I hope I find something there.

I may get some Captain Tolley's Cure and apply to those rivets and then reseal the clearance lights. The caulking looks good around the window. I suppose once I remove the clearance light casing if that is the leak point I should be able to detect moisture there. Is there insulation in that area. I would imagine it is wet.



So far no evidence of moisture under the dinette using my Sonin.

Kelvin

I think you're on the right track. Yes there is insulation there but no inner skin, depending upon model. It dries pretty readily as it is open to the back of cabinetry and their associated openings. I forget which model you have and can't see while on replying screen. May edit.....

I think your setup is just like mine in the rear.

[dznf0g]

Kelvin, do you have a rear queen with overhead lockers and wardrobes? I went out and studied mine for awhile and want to add. Both of my leaks down the screens were side windows, so a bit different, as there is inner skin there. I believe there is a bit (couple inches) of inner skin above the top of the rear window, as that is where the locker lower rear edge is affixed to the wall. It is unlikely, but possible that if you had a leak in both the awning rail AND the top of the window frame, it could result in a drip down the screen.

It is also possible that you would have a water trail down the back of the curved locker wood back, on the backside of the panel. I wouldn't use a moisture probe on that nice wood, but it is very thin and you might be able to feel a damp "stripe" with very dry fingers. Also, if water is on the wood back, it appears to me that you would have some moisture on the thin strip of mouse fur above the window and below the locker. Kinda hard to see up in there with the valence in place.

[dznf0g]

woops, I see in your signature line you have an FB. What is up above your rear window on the inside? Pic?

[dznf0g]

Found an online pic. I think most all I said still holds, except you have no valence as you have drapes in back and a pano. I don't think either affect this particular leak any differently than my setup.

[KJRitchie]

I have over the dinette overhead cabinets with a back liner of some sort. The rear window awning was not deployed last night. I will see if there is any indication of leaking in the cabinet. Hopefully its the awning rail.

Can't go out this weekend. Our reservation at two sites at Mill Creek COE on Table Rock Lake were cancelled. We've had a lot of rain and Table Rock Lake is way up, enough to flood most of the sites and disable most of the upper ground sites due to electrical system damage. I'll have time to check everything out tomorrow, sunny and 92F while the trailer is at home.

Might add another washer to my Equalizer head and recalibrate the fresh water tank.

Kelvin

[dznf0g]

Bummer. I can't fathom a reason that the awning deployed or not would make any difference.

I'm off bright and early Monday (babysitting GCs this weekend) to MI for 5 days of dry camping on the lake shore.

[KJRitchie]

Got home from work had dinner and took the moisture meter to work over the dinette area. Found moisture near were the shell meets the subfloor registered on my Sonin. I can feel the moisture under the street dinnette where the vinyl has peeled back. This is opposite side from the window leak. No moisture registering more than a few inches from the shell boundary so looks like I've caught it early.

I guess the rub rail over the bumper will need to be pulled and resealed.

Do I need to pull the dinette out and pull out the vinyl to get it completely dried? I would really like to treat the subfloor with an epoxy during this process which would mean pulling the vinyl.

I may just find someone to do the twin bed conversion and seal the rear bumper area, treat the floor and lay new vinyl. Get it over and down with. Reseal the windows, awning mounts and all the roof seals.

I've read many threads about rear bumper rub rail leaks in 2000 era Safari and Iinternationals but haven't read of any Classics having this problem but it appears the problem is in all models of this vintage. I've checked the floor before after rains and never found any moisture. Maybe I missed it or maybe its a recent development.

Kelvin

[KJRitchie]

I left a table fan on last night to help the dry out. This morning started to look at the rear window exterior. The top seal looks pretty good. With the awning deployed I observed what seems to be clear tape applied between the awning and window frame. Notice on the 3rd photo it appears water has gotten in between the tape. This is approximately up hill from where the water is trickling down the screen. The last photo shows the curbside corner of the rear window. I would say its due for a reseal.

Kelvin

[KJRitchie]

Next I checked for moisture under the dinette seats and table. I removed the wall/floor trim plate and cut the vinyl back. You can see in the photos the vinyl backing is stained. Luckily the leaking hasn't gone too far and the wood appears solid still. Since the moisture starts under the curb dinette, then under the table and to the street side dinette I'm sure this is due to bumper rub rail leaking.

I've placed a floor fan to blow on the areas. Luckily today is sunny, high 91F I've got the Fantastic Fans blowing with the entrance door open. Will let it dry out then take it back to covered storage.I will refrain from using the trailer when there is rain in the forecast until I can get this repair done. I pulled the phone line jack plate and the insulation is dry.

I'm glad I found this early before any damage occurred but its still disappointing.

Kelvin

[dznf0g]

Kelvin, that tape is there to keep the awning from chafing the skin while rolled up. It should be on all your awning windows. It is completely normal to see water staining at the seam areas where you have them.

I do note some suspicious rivets in the window rail just below your tape. In pic #1, there is the small head rivet that isn't completely bucked. Some of mine were actually overlapped. Captain Tolleys should fix those rivets.

Because of the curve of the rear of the AS and the gap between the awning rail and skin, and you say that's where the drip is, I'd be suspicious of those rivets and, I believe the Right Clearance light is about in line with that area as well.

You sealer does look like it may be time to remove and re-seal, but I wouldn't be in a hurry to remove the clear protective tape, as it is sandwiched between the skin and awning rail..

[dznf0g]

Does your Classic have the fiberglass center bumper? If so, the fiberglass and end caps have about a 3/4" rolled lip that extends up under the rub rail. It is doubtful that your water entry is at the bumper, other than at the joints between the end caps and center section. However, the top of the rub rail is always suspect. But before I jumped in and removed the rub rail ( big job), I would reseal the top of the rub rail and just work some parbond up under the rail at the bumper joints.

[dznf0g]

I think is is entirely possible that your floor water is all coming from "up north".