Repairing double pane window solar film

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

Probably doesn't mean anything, but...

That expensive replacement window that Airstream sells fits several year models from the early '70's. Seems to me that the design was a single pane window mounted in a full frame that has to be bucked in.

Jim

Wing and wrap windows are installed with Olympic rivets and vulkem sealer. It's done everyday by dealers.

If done correctly, you will not ever have a problem with it, unless of course you break the glass.

Andy

[Aerowood]

I have shot in all the other windows I've removed with MS20470A5 solid shank rivets using Proseal 1440-B1/2 and have had zero problems. I absolutely hate blind type rivets and will only use them as a last resort. I've just seen to many failures of them in my career.

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by Aerowood

I am what some people call thrifty or as ZEP says a "scrounger" and I just can't bring myself to pull the trigger on a new 450.00 dollar wing window when I need so much other "stuff" all ready. As far as shooting it back in with "buck" or solid shank (as known in my industry), that's the easy part.

I agree! I'm too cheap to spend that kind of money as well when there are sound, less expensive options. WHat I meant by my last post was that there must be parts from those years that are interchangable between models as you and Marshall are suggesting in posts 38 & 39.

Jim

[Zeppelinium]

The second double pane window is apart! Yay! Elapsed time from start to moderately clean glass is two hours. Timeline so far is:

15 minutes to get the frame off
45 minutes to get the glass apart
40 minutes to get most (not all) of the butyl off the inner glass (gag, MEK brain damage...)
20 minutes to get the film and adhesive off the outer glass

Tools are as shown--mallet, wood block, scraper, 1/8" drill, many thin wood wedges, MEK, paper towls, scratchy sponge (the non-scratch kind), and scrap chisel.

Recipe:

1. Drill out rivets that hold the fame together
2. Cut the black gasket at the frame joint (you might want to remove it completely prior to separating the frame--it will make removal much easier.) If you don't cut it you won't be able to figure out why the frame won't come apart!
3. Use the wood block and mallet to tap the frame off the glass. The two pieces can only move in the left and right direction until the square steel rod is out of the frame channel on top and bottom.
4. Peel off the gasket
5. Peel off the silver tape or cut it all the way around between the two panes. This stuff is like silver duct tape and it adheres to the glass like crazy.
6. Start gently tapping the wedges between the glass. I started at a corner and went along the long edge. I think the glass is flexible enough to bend 1/8" at a time, but I tried to keep it nearer 1/16". In some places the butyl comes right off one pane or the other for 4-6" at a time, but in other places it took a wedge every 2". For this window, the corners were very tough to get apart.
7. Work your way around the whole circumference. I used a heat gun in a couple of places--not sure how much it contributed to success but I'm glad I did it.
8. You may have to remove some lengths of butyl before you can actually separate the glass. The durn stuff is so sticky that even though you can see that the butyl has let go of one side or the other, just a slight touch and you've got several lbs of adhesion. I used a wedge to pry out a small length, then pulled on it and got quite a bit more to follow.
9. Scrape as much butyl off the inner pane as possible. This pane is a pain to clean. MEK will disolve the butyl if the remainder thin. Lacquer thinner works to some extent, also. Acetone does nothing.
10. Use the scraper to attach the film on the outer window. The butyl is onl top of the film, so a good hard scrape will remove the butyl with the film. What's left is the film adhesive, which is water-soluble, Use your non-scratchy scratchy sponge to get it off.

Youcan tell this is an "after" photo with the butyl mostly removed.



One comment about the "you can't take it apart because you'll introduce humid air..." remark. Probably true, but a few drops of condensation can't look as bad as these windows do now. Plus, the absolute level of water in the air when it's cold is low. You can fix this problem by throwing a few beads of desicant between the panes (that's what those little gold beads are that you can see in the production windows) as you are closing it up or, if you have access, you can blow some dry nitrogen between them as you're closing. In any event, we are going to find out how bad that problem is pretty soon (one hopes).

Still waiting on the new butyl to arrive,
Zep

[Zeppelinium]

Woohoo, got the samples today. The butyl is interesting--I looked to see the rubber shim rod in the cross section of the butyl, but couldn't. However, you can feel it--the color match is so perfect that if the glass is clamped together so tightly that the butyl is squeezed away from the rod, you'd still not notice it through the glass.

The 3/16" is the right stuff. I put a couple of small lengths between the panes, slipped about 5" of gasket around the edge, and pushed the frame on. It seems like a firm fit. It will be much tougher with gasket all the way around, but I'm thinking soapy water will help slip the frame on. The only small issue I noted is that the U gasket is a little bit deeper than the frame, so the triangular edge of the gasket didn't uniformly snug itself up to the edge of the frame. This may be a slight cosmetic issue, but I don't think this is a real problem. Here's a snap of the eagerly awaited test--the white paper is waxed paper that I put on both sides of the butyl so I wouldn't have yet another struggle to get the panes apart. You can see the black edge of the gasket up next to the frame.



It's going to be a week or two before I do a real window--gotta clean the glass, which is the major task of this whole project [I'm beginning to believe], decide on solar film, and get some other projects out of the way.

I also did some checking on solar film today. One place in town wanted $200 to do five panes using something they call "house film," which is a UV and IR reflector. It turns out tha most of the window tint they put on these days is for low riders and limos--the darker the better. So I'm thinking it would be good to pay attention and get the house stuff, not the limo stuff.

The first open question is, should it be silvered/mirrored or just plain film? Would you have to keep your Airstream specially polished if you had mirrored windows? The second question is, is this a DIY task or not? Once the panes are assembled in the frame, there's no going back to fix a problem. On the other hand, the "lifetime" warranty on the film isn't going to do you any good when the vendor sees that it's now inside Ft Knox.

Zep

[Lumatic]

Zep, et al,
MEK= methyl ethyl ketone? Is this available in hardware store?
Any sources for the silver film?
Where can you get nitrogen? Aerosol?

By the way,
I spoke to a window shop and they told me I will not be able to get a complete seal and there will always be some condensation problem. I plan to wait for a real low humidity day, which in NM should not be too long, to put it back together. I love doing what the "experts", like mothership tell me can't be done. The window pro guys I talked to use argon instead of nitrogen.

[Zeppelinium]

Yep on the MEK and you can get it at any hardware store.

I suggested nitrogen because it's sorta a standard industrial gas--Argon is for the E-window pros. I'm not going to do anything like that, just wait for a low humidity day.

the solar films are available at most auto windshield tinting shops. I bet you can buy a roll if it in Albuquerque. You probably want the adhesive kind--more permanent than the water-film type. They both go on with water.

Zep

[Aerowood]

Would it make any difference if you only put the film on the exposed surface of the inside glass, so if you don't like it it can be removed without disasembly of the entire window?

[Zeppelinium]

Originally Posted by Aerowood

... put the film on the exposed surface of the inside glass, ...

I don't know. I've thought about that solution, but my concern is how the reflection of radiation from that surface back into the cavity would affect total window thermal performance. I don't know how these films work. My exerienc from 25 years ago is that glass with solar film on the inside (typical car installation) gets hot. So, is the film really reflecting the radiation or is it merely acting as a shade (trapping the energy and heating the glass)?

If it's a shade, I'd prefer the outer window to be hot and the inner one less so. If the film is a good reflector, then it probably doesn't matter.

This film was popularized due to hot summer cars in the SW. I'd sure like to see data on whether the interior of a sitting car was cooler with the film. That would confirm that it's reflective. If the sitting car is the same temp, but the moving car is cooler, then the film must really be a shading device, since that would heat the window but the moving air past a moving vehicle would more easily remove that heat. I think I'll look for some data...

Decision, decisions...

Zep

[Lumatic]

The film I mentioned in a above reply Solar Film is meant to be applied to the inside of the window without disassembly

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by Aerowood

Would it make any difference if you only put the film on the exposed surface of the inside glass, so if you don't like it it can be removed without disasembly of the entire window?

The stuff I was looking at made for home installation is applied in this manner--on the exposed inside surface of the glass inside the home. All of our windows in our home are double pane. So does that mean that we can assume it's safe to apply it in the Airstream this way? Hummmm.....

Jim

[Lumatic]

There are films commonly available that can be applied to the glass on the inside window surface without disassembling the window. See my post dated 11/14 above

[Jim in Pima]

I just did all 3 vista views on my 1975, lucky I had the plexiglass inner window, I used long nose pliers to grip the inner retainer, it snapped right out. The big effort was getting the plastic coating off the glass, ended up I used a razor scraper and goof off. Finally used 1/4 inch weather stripping foam from Wal-Mart for a gasket, don't see why it wll not work, sure went back together nice and tight. Now I got two large windows with bubbles all over.

[Jim in Pima]

Home Depot has the sun blocking films at a decent price, did all my house and used the leftovers to do another camper, works wonderfull in AZ sun