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12-06-2007, 07:37 PM
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#61
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Rivet Master
1973 23' Safari
1977 23' Safari
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Palmer Lake
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
Excella CM[/B]]If you want to make a noble effort you can use Argon-so called because when you look for it a few weeks later it are gone.
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I must diverge here and hijack my own thread to put out a WARNING about this member, Excella CM, whose mission it is to drive me nuts. Just last week he refused an offer for a spare vacuum tank with the thought that he didn't need another tank full of vacuum...the mind quivers at the thought.
Let's see if he can do something with the concept of letting the cold in.
Zep
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12-06-2007, 08:53 PM
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#62
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Site Team
2002 25' Safari
Dewey
, Arizona
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,606
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Zep,
Are you planning on putting any silica gel between the windows to grab any moisture that might be left in?
__________________
Richard
Wally Byam Airstream Club 7513
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12-06-2007, 10:27 PM
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#63
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Rivet Master
1973 23' Safari
1977 23' Safari
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Palmer Lake
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azflycaster
Zep,
Are you planning on putting any silica gel between the windows to grab any moisture that might be left in?
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I thought about it, but never got to the planning stage. Now that I'm held up for a few days, maybe. Is that stuff readily available? Where?
When you look at the old windows, it looks like Airstream only put in about 5 BB's worth. I don't mind a few yellow BB's in the bottom of the window. You don't notice them until you start thinking about fixing them.
Zep
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12-06-2007, 10:45 PM
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#64
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Site Team
2002 25' Safari
Dewey
, Arizona
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,606
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You can get it at hobby stores. Jan uses it to dry flowers. You put a few roses in a shoe box and fill it with the stuff. Throw it in the microwave for a few minutes and you have dried roses.
Some of the pellets are indicators also, they will change color as the level of moisture increases.
__________________
Richard
Wally Byam Airstream Club 7513
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12-09-2007, 01:17 PM
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#65
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Rivet Master
1973 23' Safari
1977 23' Safari
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Palmer Lake
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,092
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Putting it back together
Back on the track after another middle of the night epiphany. You don't need the film to go to the edge of the glass. If there's enough exposed glass, the butyl will stick to the glass and not pull up the film. So, the next part of the process has gone like this:
1. Use a razor blade to cut a 1/4" gap around the edge of the glass. As it turns out, the film is moderately stuck two days later, but comes up without tearing.
2. lay the butyl around the edge of the outside pane, which is larger. You could lay the butyl with the paper side up, but beware that you can't turn the corner of the glass with the paper on the butyl--it's pretty tough and won't bend adequately. I laid it by taking the paper off, then taking pieces of the paper and reapplying it as shown here:
3. The gap between the inner and outer pane is significant with these two panes.
4. I closed the gap with clamps with rubber protection on their feet. You can also see the beginning of taping the edge with aluminum tape. I taped the straight sections separately from the curved corners. It turns out, I believe, that this tape is required to hold the panes together (remember the gap) once the clamps are removed. I don't know yet if that works--clamps are still on. (One note: the edges came together very linearly, except one small 3" section near a corner--there was an additional gap of about 1/8", almost like there was a wave in the edge. I used an additional clamp with light pressure and to my surprise it close right up. I don't know if there was a slight thickness in the butyl or what, but it worked out.)
5. You can see here how far back the film has been trimmed from the edge. One discovery is that the butyl grabs the glass much stronger than it did the film, so it was suddenly very manageable (once touching the glass it didn't come off easily).
6. Managing the gasket is not easy. I used some strips of maple to hold it along the long edge and the clamp bars to loosely organize it along the short edge. I don't have a clue how to manage the bulge as it turns the corner. I'm hoping that as the frame snugs up, it will automatically pull this in.
7. Here's the frame just barely on. It seems to fit snugly. Now to the point of this whole post--does anyone have an idea of a lubricant for sliding the frame onto the gasket, other than soapy water?
devoting my winter to the windows...
Zep
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12-09-2007, 03:19 PM
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#66
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Rivet Master
1971 21' Globetrotter
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Arvada
, Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,527
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Vasoline?
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12-09-2007, 04:03 PM
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#67
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Rivet Master
1973 23' Safari
1977 23' Safari
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Palmer Lake
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,092
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Success!
I was thinking of petroleum jelly, but I don't know the long term potential deteriorization effects on the vinyl. I also thought of using TSP, since it's really slippery, but it has a corrosive effect on aluminum. I finally decided on Murphy's Oil Soap and water, about 10:1.
The good news is I have no patience and just went for it. Make sure you relieve the inside of the leading edge of the frame so that sharp edges don't cut the gasket. The frame goes on pretty easy, after all. The problem is, the vinyl gasket doesn't slip inside the frame as neatly as you would think. I had to tap the frame open three times (both sides) to get the gasket to snug itself into the frame. But it's done! There is a small gap in the gasket. I put the joint right at the top center of the window, but I don't think the gasket is essential to the watertightness of the window--the weep channel and holes at the bottom provide that function. But I will put a little Vulkem in the gap.
The bad news is, the final fit is waaaay tight. The frames come together within 1/8", but then even the biggest mallet wouldn't budge them any further. I had to get out the big clamps--I have no idea why the glass didn't just explode. But the window now seems perfectly happy.
Here's an idea of the tint and the reflectivity of the window. It's not this dark visually, I assure you. I'll be curious to see what it's like to look out at night. Maybe I'll do that test from the house....
From the stress I had to put on it to get the frame closed, I would advise against even considering using pop rivets to put it back together.
Richard, I'll get some desicant for the big windows. Thanks for the input.
Zep
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12-10-2007, 05:55 AM
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#68
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Rivet Master
1973 23' Safari
1977 23' Safari
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Palmer Lake
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,092
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Materials
For those of you who are contemplating redoing your windows, I'm confident that we've got the right materials identified. The gasket is easy--100' for $30 plus shipping. A minimum order of the butyl, however, is 20 rolls, or about $230 at wholesale, plus shipping.
If there's sufficient interest, we need to get Vintage Trailer Supply to stock the butyl. He'd probably have to charge $30 a roll (that's 20') to make it worth his while, or we could group together and get a minimum order.
Fortunately, I've got enough butyl to do the Safari and Sovereign, so I'm not so hot to do a minimum order by myself.
Any interest?
Zep
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12-10-2007, 01:37 PM
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#69
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Remember, Safety Third
1973 27' Overlander
Catfish Corners
, Georgia
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeppelinium
.......Any interest?
Zep
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Man, I was hoping when you started this thread that my windows would be like these, but unfortunately, they're not.
Great looking work and a fabulous explanation.
Jim
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12-17-2007, 10:31 AM
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#70
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Rivet Master
1973 23' Safari
1977 23' Safari
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Palmer Lake
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,092
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The good news is that the "process" is repeatable and works for the larger windows. The frames pretty much slip on.
The bad news is (1) I never did achieve control of the dust/crud under the solar film (not terrible, just not perfect--but one out of 4 was bad enough that two days later I ripped the film off and applied new) and (2) getting the gasket to tuck into the frame correctly takes lots of pushing of edges and pushing the frame on and then back a little and then on and back a little so you can get the edge along the short side of the glass to tuck correctly.
Here's how I managed to get the protective clear film off the solar film with just two hands (believe me, there were a couple of attempts without the support that were disasters!):
Once you've peeled the clear film off, spray both sides of the solar film again and then grab the top two "hangar" tapes and move the film to the glass.
The window on the left is actually a single pane in the double pane frame. Remember the broken inner pane from one of the earlier posts?
Zep
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12-17-2007, 10:37 AM
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#71
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Rivet Master
1973 23' Safari
1977 23' Safari
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Palmer Lake
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,092
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Single Pane in double pane frame
In order to salvage the outside pane from my earlier disaster, I decided to use just the single pane with enough butyl to hold the single pane and gasket in the frame, per this drawing (the solar film is not shown, but it's on the inside face of the glass and extends under the butyl):
This turned out to be workable, but not such a good idea. The butyl is not stiff enough to resist the frame pushing it inwards. It took a lot of pounding on it with a wood block to stuff it into the gasket frame. Also, the aluminum tape isn't all that strong. It does provide good protection from the sticky butyl, but slips on the glass and tears if you try to move the butyl too much at one time. I'm not even sure it's stable--hot weather may allow the butyl to creep partially out of the frame. The other bad thing is you are now assembling the unit with the solar film exposed. Easy to ding. And it's under the butyl, so difficult to replace. Looks great, but BAAAAD idea.
The interior edge looks like this:
If I had it to do over, I'd get a gasket that just fits around the edge of the glass, then use a 0.25" foam or rubber rod, pushed down between the glass and inside edge of the frame, to hold the glass in place.
Zep
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12-17-2007, 10:40 AM
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#72
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Site Team
2002 25' Safari
Dewey
, Arizona
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,606
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Zep,
I am going to need 1 roll when I do my vista view later this year. Do you have one you want to sell me?
__________________
Richard
Wally Byam Airstream Club 7513
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12-17-2007, 10:45 AM
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#73
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Rivet Master
1973 23' Safari
1977 23' Safari
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Palmer Lake
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,092
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Richard,
You've got the older design, right? The one where the inner pane is held in with a clip ring?
The 3/16" rolls are 20'. The 1/8" rolls are 25'. I think for a vista view you'll need about 80"-90". Also, what is the thickness of the old putty in your model of the vista view?
Zep
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12-17-2007, 10:56 AM
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#74
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Rivet Master
1973 23' Safari
1977 23' Safari
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Palmer Lake
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,092
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12-17-2007, 11:16 AM
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#75
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Site Team
2002 25' Safari
Dewey
, Arizona
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,606
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My inner glass is plexi and is held in place with the snap ring type molding. I have no idea about thinkness untill I pull one out. I quess when is comes to Airstreams, we can assume nothing.
__________________
Richard
Wally Byam Airstream Club 7513
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12-29-2007, 06:07 PM
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#76
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Rivet Master
1971 25' Tradewind
1993 34' Excella
Currently Looking...
Estancia
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,742
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I did some more work cleaning the schmutz off the window panes. Goo gone works purdy good as Zep said. Even though I got 90% of the crud off the glass I could not get it completely clear at the edges and now am wondering if there was some kind of chemical reaction between the deteriorating butyl and the glass which has etched the glass. I'll live with the glass the way it is if I have to, but before I put Humpty back together again (hopefully forever or at least till I'm dead and rotten) is there anything anybody else suggests?
__________________
Sail on silver girl. Sail on by. Your time has come to shine.
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01-09-2008, 12:19 AM
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#77
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Rivet Master
1971 25' Tradewind
1993 34' Excella
Currently Looking...
Estancia
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,742
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update: wing windows
I put my wing window together again with Zep's butyl and sealed with aluminum tape. As cold air holds less humidity than warm put together on a cold dry day. I considered using some dessicant inside to absorb moisture but it looked like dissicant has a shelf life of only a year or so. The original U gasket was somewhat stiff and I gave up on it in short order. I put a good bead of Parbond inside the channel and screwed the frame back together. I should have put more Parbond in, so I had to get more in. I thinned some Parbond down with Tuolene a bit and used a veterinary syringe without a needle to squeeze more in the gaps. I used some table knives between the glass and the frame to maintain a gap between glass and frame which would have been taken care of by the gasket until the Parbond sets. I suppose I also could also have used Vulkem.
Incidentally I was previously told the "marriage bars" which cover the joint between the wing windows and front window were no longer available. Inland RV was able to sell me a couple.
__________________
Sail on silver girl. Sail on by. Your time has come to shine.
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01-11-2008, 05:15 PM
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#78
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Rivet Master
1973 23' Safari
1977 23' Safari
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Palmer Lake
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,092
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Good cleaning news
The window up in post #71 was badly stained. Lots of little pale irregular spots from 1/16" to 1/4". I tried everything to get them off. I finally decided they were tree sap stains that had percolated into the glass surface--no solvent or razor blade had any effect.
I ordered a glass polishing kit from Eastwood Co, about a pint of Rhodite and a thick felt polishing disk for use in a hand drill--$45-ish with shipping. This polish is described as useful in removing small scratches, scatches so small you can't feel them with your fingernail. I think you can get the Rhodite separately, as well as a more aggressive polish for deeper scratches.
Incredible! Stains disappeared almost instantly. As soon as I realized how effective it was, I tried using a little of the Rhodite on a damp Kleenex. It took a few seconds and a little bit of work, but the stains can be removed that way, too.
Highly recommend. I did try my luck at a few small scratches--one of three was gone in about 2 minutes, the other two were greatly diminished.
Zep
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01-11-2008, 08:50 PM
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#79
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Rivet Master
1971 25' Tradewind
1993 34' Excella
Currently Looking...
Estancia
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,742
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RE: Those pesky stains on the glass.
I chickened out with the Eastwood Glass Polishing Kit, tempered glass being so funky. I put some clear nail polish over the stain and they pretty much dissapeared. I expect the nail polish will eventually peel but for now it worked.
__________________
Sail on silver girl. Sail on by. Your time has come to shine.
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02-16-2008, 10:17 AM
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#80
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2 Rivet Member
1976 31' Sovereign
Anytown USA
, The open road.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 52
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Well, I think I will try one at a time. And have a spare handy when I do...lol. Thanks for all the links!
__________________
Genuis has limitations, stupidity has none.
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