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Old 03-08-2018, 07:15 AM   #81
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Jay and wponder,

This might be the answer to both your questions, or at least a clue.

In my case, I hooked up our lithiumized trailer (Battleborn battery) to our Toyota 4Runner.

-When only hooked up, there was no current flow.
-When I turned the ignition on, I had 7-8 Amps of discharging. That is, the TT power was flowing to the TV battery due to the voltage difference.
-When I started the engine, the alternator kicked in, and I had about 4 Amps of charging, that is, TV power going to the TT, as we all wish.

-At this point, I thought everything was fine, but it wasn't. I had a 30 minute drive home and within a few minutes the alternator output started to decrease. I had a bluetooth connection to the battery monitor so I could see what was happening. Mile after mile, the charging current decreased, until it was back to draining the TT battery again. Only if I revved the motor could I get it close to neutral again.

My conclusion: The alternator is programmed to quickly recharge the TV battery after starting, but then goes into a lower output mode. i.e. At first, the voltage is higher than the lithium voltage but it will decrease until it is lower. Jay, perhaps some alternators are not designed to put out their highest output continuously, and that is why this was mentioned for sailboats. wponder, this means you can't depend on the initial measurement where you witnessed the TT being charged. 15 minutes down the road may be different.

In my case, I disconnected the TV power line at the TT 12v bus bar, and all is well. I'm seriously considering adding the 12v/12v adapter to allow a charging mode from the TV, but I currently have solar, and so far it tops off the batteries while driving just fine.
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:02 PM   #82
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Thanks Larry! I read you post about the 4 Runner. I have a trip coming up and plan on charging the batteries before heading out. I will watch the TV when we head out to make sure the state does not change. I have two Dual HD alternators in a F350. I would be surprised if there is not a diode in line and if it drops enough to trigger the battery to kick on. If it does, I am just going to pull the wire from the TT.
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Old 03-09-2018, 05:25 PM   #83
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Am fairly sure that in my case the alternator's output is a function of the line (battery) voltage and a simple voltage regulator controls the output. So, for as long as the line voltage is relatively low and / or the current draw high, the alternator will want to push out the amps.

Toward the 4Runner's behavior, not knowing the year of the Toyota or how integrated the alternator is with the vehicle computer (PCM, ECM, whatever), it is possible that the computer will follow a logic path independent of line voltage. Then again, even if the computer does control the alternator output, it will not surprise me if it still modulates output based on load. As mentioned, I just do not have any direct knowledge in this area (specifically, what the code controls in a 100% drive-by-wire system). Seems that a smart battery isolator will fix the trailer powering the TV in the 4Runner's case.


Seeing as the lithium battery is best charged by a larger gauge wire as opposed to what TV's come with, I will probably run a secondary set of charge cables in parallel with those to the 7 pin in the TV. On the trailer side, disconnect the 7 pin charge wire from the battery and use the new larger gauge wire. This way, it will allow my TV to charge the trailer, continue to work normally with trailers that use lead acid, and serve as a fail-safe for any other vehicle that needs to tow the trailer with the lithium. Will just need to make sure that by charging the lithium, I do not cook the TV's lead acid battery.
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Old 03-16-2018, 05:00 PM   #84
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Dear SilverHouseDreams,
Your observation of the problem with keeping your Li-ion trailer batteries hooked in parallel with your tow vehicle starter battery is spot on. The Li-ion battery operates on a higher and flatter voltage curve and therefore will continue leak charge into your lead acid starter. That is why a battery isolator is imperative in this situation. The simplest isolator is a switch that is mounted on the positive side between the house battery and the starter battery. The switch is closed only when the ignition is on, so that the alternator charges both the house and starter batteries.

We offer a more sophisticated battery isolator that monitors the alternator voltage and house bank voltage and closes only when the voltage difference is large enough to provide a sufficient charge to the house bank.

At Battle Born Batteries, we have developed a Li-ion Battery Isolation Manager (Li-ion BIM) that takes it a step further (for motorized RV's) and duty-cycles the charging of the house bank in order to protect the alternator from running too hot, since the Li-ion batteries charge so fast. This is only needed for a large house bank (greater than around 400Ah).

thanks

Sean

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverHouseDreams View Post
I haven't looked at the voltage profile for other LiFePO4 packs, but I installed Battle Born batteries in my 22FB. So far it was a fantastic upgrade, but there are some trade offs. I will detail the ones regarding converters separately, this is a warning about leaving your TT (travel trailer) connected to the TV (tow vehicle).

Anytime there is a voltage differential between batteries, energy is going to flow from the higher energy (voltage) battery to the lower energy battery. In this case the resting voltage of a 100% charged Battle Born LiFePO4 pack can be as high as 14.4V, over some time it will rest down to 13.6-14V or so (based on observations thus far). 100% charge on your TV lead acid battery is likely 12.7V, and we know from the many discussions here that holding a lead acid battery at high voltage "cooks it". By leaving the TT connected to the TV you are essentially presenting your TV battery with s sustained voltage of up to 14V, while also bleeding capacity out of your TT and largely wasting it as heat.

What alerted me to this is that I would see a 1-2amp steady draw on my house batteries after the TV was connected and the ignition was off. It actually took me a few minutes to decode what was going on, but disconnecting the 7-pin umbilical and the draw stopped immediately. Connect the 7-pin and the draw returned. YMMV may vary, but to protect the lead acid battery in the TV and to maintain SOC on your TT battery you may not want to leave them connected when not actively towing. Eventually my LiFePO4 batteries would have dropped to the same resting voltage as the TV battery, however that is actually a pretty low SOC (state of charge) and not desirable by any means.

As more TT start to use these lithium packs we will all learn more of the nuances of mixing them with our TVs and other devices that are intended for lead acid (e.g. converters). In the ideal world we would have a voltage differential monitor/relay that would manage the connected state of the charge circuit from the 7-pin, it would disconnect it whenever the TT voltage is higher than that of the TV. I am guessing such relays are in common use in RVs to manage state of charging the house batteries, while also isolating the starter batteries and perhaps something could be adapted.

As with all things, YMMV, however I want everyone to go into this eyes open and not be caught by surprise when their boon docking is cut short by unexpected low SOC.
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:25 PM   #85
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i just bought the bullet and purchased a Battle Born 100Ah 12V LiFePO4 battery for my as 22FB

the hard part was the $250+ shipping to canada. why ; its a dangerous good.

now i have to find two good solar panels to get ready for the spring when the AS comes out of winter storage

this is what im looking at now for solar to match up with the new li-ion



http://www.solartrader.ca/heliene_16..._1337prod.html
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:38 PM   #86
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I’m going to verify that my TV shuts off the charge line when ignition is off. If not, a nice ignition operated relay WILL get added to prevent accidentally killing the TV battery overnight. I’m not likely to remember to pull the 7-way before bedtime...
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Old 03-17-2018, 09:46 AM   #87
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An isolation switch is not enough

Reminder: an ignition operated switch or relay may not be sufficient to prevent the TT lithium battery from discharging into the TV battery.

In my case, the alternator voltage was high enough for the first 15 minutes after starting to keep both batteries charged, but then went to a lower level and the BB battery was discharging into the TV even when driving.
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:24 PM   #88
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Battle Born vs Dragon Wave- are they the same OEM

i ordered the 100 Ah BB10012 for battle born
https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop...cycle-battery/


when i got the receipt, it was from Dragon fly
they have a similar battery just a different colour, 100AH Df10012
http://dragonflyenergy.com/batteries/


are they the same firm.
there is no mention on either site about the other name
they are both at the same address
4814 longley LN, reno NV, 89502

what gives
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:26 PM   #89
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Dragonfly

Is the parent company, I believe. I have 3 of them and might even add a fourth.

-Adam
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Old 03-17-2018, 04:06 PM   #90
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Looks like Battle Born Battery is owned by Dragonfly Energy. Same battery different color.

https://trademarks.justia.com/owners...-corp-3316502/
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Old 03-17-2018, 04:07 PM   #91
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We rewired both trailers so that there is no charge coming into the trailer battery from the tow vehicle to protect the dissimilar storage voltage batteries in the truck from the lithium battery in the trailer.

Of course the power for the electric brakes comes from the tow vehicle. We do have the breakaway switch wired to the lithium battery with a diode.
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Old 03-18-2018, 08:05 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battlebornli View Post
Dear SilverHouseDreams,

Your observation of the problem with keeping your Li-ion trailer batteries hooked in parallel with your tow vehicle starter battery is spot on. The Li-ion battery operates on a higher and flatter voltage curve and therefore will continue leak charge into your lead acid starter. That is why a battery isolator is imperative in this situation. The simplest isolator is a switch that is mounted on the positive side between the house battery and the starter battery. The switch is closed only when the ignition is on, so that the alternator charges both the house and starter batteries.



We offer a more sophisticated battery isolator that monitors the alternator voltage and house bank voltage and closes only when the voltage difference is large enough to provide a sufficient charge to the house bank.



At Battle Born Batteries, we have developed a Li-ion Battery Isolation Manager (Li-ion BIM) that takes it a step further (for motorized RV's) and duty-cycles the charging of the house bank in order to protect the alternator from running too hot, since the Li-ion batteries charge so fast. This is only needed for a large house bank (greater than around 400Ah).



thanks



Sean


It’s great to see Battle Born rep on site and answering this question, as many potential owners have been asking this question throughout the forums.

Isolating the TT from TV batteries is a must for lithium, it’s what many of us have been saying. Other lithium manufactures like Victron and installers have been saying this, but several BB owners were claiming it’s not needed on the BB batteries.

This is the proof that IT IS A MUST!
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Old 03-18-2018, 08:15 AM   #93
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100 Amp Schottky Diodes

i have order these 100 Amp Schottky Diodes to help with the one way transfer

they have a low forward drop voltage
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:26 AM   #94
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If your alternator is consistently operating at a sufficiently low voltage that the TT battery bleeds into the TV trailer, we highly recommend our Li-ion BIM. This device completely prevents back bleeding from the house battery, and ensure a closed charging connection only when the charging voltage differential between the alternator and house battery exceeds +0.1V.


Quote:
Originally Posted by larry9000 View Post
Reminder: an ignition operated switch or relay may not be sufficient to prevent the TT lithium battery from discharging into the TV battery.

In my case, the alternator voltage was high enough for the first 15 minutes after starting to keep both batteries charged, but then went to a lower level and the BB battery was discharging into the TV even when driving.
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:31 AM   #95
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Waninae39,
Thanks for the message.

We do make both brands. We market the 2 brands in different applications. Of course the Battle Born brand is very popular in many industries including RV's.

Sean

Quote:
Originally Posted by waninae39 View Post
i ordered the 100 Ah BB10012 for battle born
https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop...cycle-battery/


when i got the receipt, it was from Dragon fly
they have a similar battery just a different colour, 100AH Df10012
http://dragonflyenergy.com/batteries/


are they the same firm.
there is no mention on either site about the other name
they are both at the same address
4814 longley LN, reno NV, 89502

what gives
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:33 AM   #96
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Hank
Please feel free to reach out to us, we are happy to discuss this with you. Give is a call or shoot us an email.

Sean
Quote:
Originally Posted by RankAm View Post
Troutboy, I have purchased two of the Battle Born 100Ah 12V LiFePO4 batteries, and I do want to protect them. I am looking here for the right DC/DC converter. I need one of the "isolated" models, correct? Do I need technical help to decide which converter I need, or is one of the units a clear choice for use between the tow vehicle and my two trailer batteries?

Also, where do you recommend physical installation of the converter?

Thanks.

Hank
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:37 AM   #97
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Troutboy
Thanks for the message, we appreciate your energy on this thread. We do what we can to make sure we help everyone understand the power of LiFePO4.

Sean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troutboy View Post
It’s great to see Battle Born rep on site and answering this question, as many potential owners have been asking this question throughout the forums.

Isolating the TT from TV batteries is a must for lithium, it’s what many of us have been saying. Other lithium manufactures like Victron and installers have been saying this, but several BB owners were claiming it’s not needed on the BB batteries.

This is the proof that IT IS A MUST!
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:20 PM   #98
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i want to use the 100 Amp Schottky Diode

hello @battlebornli

instead of using a DC to DC between AS and the TV
i want to use the 100 Amp Schottky Diode. i bought two for only $8

can you please post a good schematic that shows:
a diode,
the Lion battery and
two charging system ie one with 110V input and another with solar power input

In the late spring, ill take my AS out and them want to install:
the new solar panel
solar controller
the BB Lion battery
and the diode

i'm not sure if i put the diode in the TV or the as trailer

here is one schematic i've seen
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Old 03-20-2018, 09:16 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battlebornli View Post
If your alternator is consistently operating at a sufficiently low voltage that the TT battery bleeds into the TV trailer, we highly recommend our Li-ion BIM. This device completely prevents back bleeding from the house battery, and ensure a closed charging connection only when the charging voltage differential between the alternator and house battery exceeds +0.1V.
If your alternator is consistently operating at a sufficiently low voltage that the TT battery bleeds into the TV trailer, we highly recommend a diode. This device completely prevents back bleeding from the house battery, and ensure a closed charging connection only when the charging voltage differential between the alternator and house battery exceeds +0.3V.

We've built a few of these already, putting the diode into an aluminum box for heat sinking with pig-tail wires for easy hookup. PM me for more info.
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Old 03-20-2018, 09:47 AM   #100
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Where to find the Li-Ion BIM

Quote:
Originally Posted by battlebornli View Post
If your alternator is consistently operating at a sufficiently low voltage that the TT battery bleeds into the TV trailer, we highly recommend our Li-ion BIM. This device completely prevents back bleeding from the house battery, and ensure a closed charging connection only when the charging voltage differential between the alternator and house battery exceeds +0.1V.
I searched and couldn't find the Li-Ion BIM product you referred to. Can you post a link? Thanks!
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