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Old 06-20-2017, 07:19 PM   #21
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We bought our 2017 FC last Aug and hit the road. We've been camping at parks with full hook-ups so no boondocking for us. In Feb, we drove the Baja penensula and did some camping on the beach w/o hook-ups. Guess what? On the first morning of not being hooked up, our voltage was down to 10.7. These Interstate batteries, with May 2017 date stamps, were fired.

We were hooked up to 30 amp power the whole time except for the drive time. The factory controller killed them but we wouldn't have known it had we not done some beach camping. Oh and by the way, Airstream paid for a new pair of batteries and I paid for my new intelligent controller.
Perfect example of what I was trying to describe in my post.

Regarding the 2018 having a multistage 'converter' that's mentioned on the website (first of all, it's not the converter that needs to be multi-stage, it's the charger, but that's just an uninformed copywriter using the wrong word) I'll be curious to see what they start using. On their website, Parallax has always referred to their 8300 series as "Multi-Stage", and we see how that turned out. They are not true multi-stage. Randy has explained that several times in these forums.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:46 PM   #22
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I've always heard that what is hard on the batteries is when you stay plugged into the electrical utility and have no 12 volt appliances operating. In that case 100% of the converter output is being used to charge the batteries, and with the single stage chargers being dumb, you can boil away the battery liquid over time. I did that one summer when my Classic spent a lot of time at home in the drive.

If you are out camping though, you probably are using the fridge on electric and of course you have the various interior or exterior lights. If the furnace is used then you have load there due to the occasional use of the furnace motor. All provide a 12 volt load on the converter which lessens the available power available for charging the battery.

Now I'm not sure if that previous info is one of those myths, but I just avoid keeping the trailer plugged into electric, when we are not in a camping mode. When camping with the refrigerator in use I really don't believe you will boil away the battery(ies). I do check mine annually when I pull them to winterize and usually have minimal water if any to add. The other key to preserving the battery life is during winter I pull the batteries from the trailer and keep them on trickle charge in my garage.

If you boil them or let them run down, at best you may get only 1 or 2 years of use. I'm on my 4th pair since I bought my trailer in the fall of 2003. I don't boondock so pretty much the only use of the batteries is when I hitch or unhitch, or maintaining the electronics of the refrigerator running on propane, when we are on the road. I always consider the main purpose of my batteries being in good condition is to apply emergency braking if the break away pin is activated.

Jack

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Old 06-21-2017, 09:38 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by jcanavera View Post
I've always heard that what is hard on the batteries is when you stay plugged into the electrical utility and have no 12 volt appliances operating. In that case 100% of the converter output is being used to charge the batteries, and with the single stage chargers being dumb, you can boil away the battery liquid over time. I did that one summer when my Classic spent a lot of time at home in the drive.

........

Jack
Hi

Let's slow down here a bit. The charger side of the converter puts out a specific voltage. It does not *force* current into the batteries. If the charger is running at 13 V and the batteries are at 13V, zero current goes into the batteries. If the batteries want to be at 12.8V and the converter is at 13V, current will flow into the batteries.

What voltage the batteries "want" to be at depends on their state of charge, their temperature, and their health. Any charger that tries to deal with a battery that also is supplying a load can get a bit confused. Yes, there are very fancy chargers that completely isolate the load and the battery. You can't afford them ...They are way beyond what we call "4 stage" units.

Just in case you run out to grab just any charger that says "4 stage": There are some on the market that will run your battery up to 18V. No that is not a typo. It's not a guess. It's a measured value with a calibrated volt meter. Trust me, you do *not* want 18V on the power bus in your AS. I'd go into the details of the charger, but it's nothing you would rationally pick for a trailer anyway.

Bob
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Old 06-21-2017, 06:25 PM   #24
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I have never understood the economy of replacing the charger when batteries are designed to be consumable and are quite cheap. When I do the math, to replace the charger the payback is a decade or more...by which point I'll have upgrade to a self-flying trailer.
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Old 06-21-2017, 07:23 PM   #25
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I have never understood the economy of replacing the charger when batteries are designed to be consumable and are quite cheap.
I learned I had dead batteries on day 2 of a 3 night stay. If you're willing to deliver these consumables on an as-needed basis, then I agree, don't worry about your controller.

BTW, the smart controller is cheaper than a pair of batteries, if you are handy enough to swap it yourself.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:25 AM   #26
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Hi

The delta between a "dumb charger" and a "super smart charger" is roughly 20% more battery charge. If your batteries hold up for 2 to 3 days with a dumb charger they will hold up for 2.4 to 3.6 days with a smart charger. The smart charger will do nothing to "fix" a battery that has been damaged by being repeatedly run flat.

The same basic math applies to battery life. If you get 4 years on a dumb charger, you may get 5 or 6 on a smart charger. Yes, there is a payback there.

Could you design a system that completely disconnects everything down at 50% discharge to protect the batteries? Sure you could. It is not a feature that comes with any of the chargers I have seen. Given the love of direct connect propane monitors, I doubt you will see such a setup on a factory system.

Bob
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Old 06-22-2017, 01:04 PM   #27
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I have never understood the economy of replacing the charger when batteries are designed to be consumable and are quite cheap. When I do the math, to replace the charger the payback is a decade or more...by which point I'll have upgrade to a self-flying trailer.
A PD4655 for a 30 amp trailer is $200. I know people who have to replace their batteries every two years or even less (they stay plugged in a LOT and are slowly coming around). Not sure how the payback is calculated at 10 years.

Meanwhile, in the previous post to this one, Uncle Bob made another observation that is correct...an upgraded charger will charge the batteries as much as 20% more. This is due to the 14.4 volt bulk charge mode. The OEM charger does not get up that high. 20% is a lot of battery power when you consider they can only be drawn down to 50% (for wet cell batts).

Again, for folks who are plugged in 100% of the time in RV Parks...yes there is little point in changing the charger, especially if they keep their batteries on "store" most of the time. Even if they don't, and the batteries are damaged, often it won't matter, power to the trailer will be fine via shore power. But one night boon docking when they won't hold a charge will be when the damage is recognized.

Meanwhile, here is more anecdotal evidence posted just today. See post #4.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f542...ml#post1966662
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Old 06-22-2017, 04:58 PM   #28
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Hi

If your batteries hold up for 2 to 3 days with a dumb charger they will hold up for 2.4 to 3.6 days with a smart charger. The smart charger will do nothing to "fix" a battery that has been damaged by being repeatedly run flat.
Agreed. But the point of my post was that the dumb controller killed my batteries and I didn't know it. We'd been on 30 amp power for six months. Then we did some boondocking and, uh oh, the batteries were dead on morning two. We managed to get through it with our generator but I was not a happy camper.

After researching it, I found out this issue is commonly known. I complained to Airstream and the CS rep said that the OEM controller wasn't the issue but he'd gladly refund my cost of a new pair of batteries.

My advice to anyone who plans to camp without 30 amp power is to upgrade your controller.
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Old 06-23-2017, 07:32 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by dasams View Post
Agreed. But the point of my post was that the dumb controller killed my batteries and I didn't know it. We'd been on 30 amp power for six months. Then we did some boondocking and, uh oh, the batteries were dead on morning two. We managed to get through it with our generator but I was not a happy camper.

After researching it, I found out this issue is commonly known. I complained to Airstream and the CS rep said that the OEM controller wasn't the issue but he'd gladly refund my cost of a new pair of batteries.

My advice to anyone who plans to camp without 30 amp power is to upgrade your controller.
Hi

Like a lot of "commonly known" things, the idea that the charger kills batteries is *not* the whole story. Indeed the charger was involved (it was present at the crime scene). In pretty much all cases, it's not what really killed the batteries. It's just a very easy target. The point is that changing the charger without doing other things will not prevent the issue in the future.

Bob
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:23 AM   #30
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In every Airstream I've owned (six now) I left the original charger/converter in until they failed. Yes, I fried a battery or two or ..... more. But it was not because of the charger. It was because I failed to put water into the battery when it was needed. The converter/chargers did exactly what they are designed to do. The first four trailers still had the original charger/converter when I sold them. In the two trailers I have now, both chargers failed to work properly when they were ~15 to 18 years old, so they were replaced.

Power Max Boondocker 55 amp purchased from Best Converter is what I used in both trailers. With the original converters I would have to add water every month or two (or should have) With the new converter once or twice per year.

My Safari is plugged in when at home 24/7, year round (we're on the road 30+ days during warm season). My Excella is not plugged in while in storage through the summer, but is plugged in 24/7, Nov through March except when we are on the road.
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:19 PM   #31
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Like a lot of "commonly known" things, the idea that the charger kills batteries is *not* the whole story. Indeed the charger was involved (it was present at the crime scene). In pretty much all cases, it's not what really killed the batteries. It's just a very easy target. The point is that changing the charger without doing other things will not prevent the issue in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
In every Airstream I've owned (six now) I left the original charger/converter in until they failed. Yes, I fried a battery or two or ..... more. But it was not because of the charger. It was because I failed to put water into the battery when it was needed. The converter/chargers did exactly what they are designed to do.
Both posts are good and thanks for the replies. In my case, I bought a 2017 FC in Aug 2016 that had batteries dated May 2016. We were full timing and stay at full hook-ups with 30 amps every time. In Feb 2017, we went to Baja and camped on the beach. Our first boondock. On the first morning on the beach, our batteries were at 10ish volts. They were toast.

I think that the controller shooting 13.7 volts into them killed them but am open other possibilities. Anyone?
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:31 PM   #32
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Both posts are good and thanks for the replies. In my case, I bought a 2017 FC in Aug 2016 that had batteries dated May 2016. We were full timing and stay at full hook-ups with 30 amps every time. In Feb 2017, we went to Baja and camped on the beach. Our first boondock. On the first morning on the beach, our batteries were at 10ish volts. They were toast.

I think that the controller shooting 13.7 volts into them killed them but am open other possibilities. Anyone?
Could have been as simple as a manufacturing defect on your batteries. After all, they were replaced under warranty, yes?

Stuff happens. The plural of "anecdote" isn't "research"

Hang in there!
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Old 06-24-2017, 07:26 AM   #33
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Hi

Unless the charger boiled them dry, the charger didn't kill the batteries. A non-temperature compensated (no temperature probe) charger is only making a guess at what voltage to put on the batteries. If the batteries are at 130F out in the sun, that guess is way to high (like by > 0.6V). If the batteries are at 32F, that guess is way to low (like by > 0.8V). That's all with the best charger you can get anywhere. It would be shooting 13.4V into the batteries under all conditions.

Unless you regularly test the batteries, there is no way to know when they get to a given state of "dead". Very few of us run a discharge test once a week or even once a year. Given the way some dealers operate, I would not rule out nearly dead batteries on a brand new trailer ....

Bob
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Old 06-24-2017, 07:45 AM   #34
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Bob is probably right about the dealer. We have seen many reports of nearly dead batteries when delivered to the customer, after sitting on the dealer lot. It has been said many times that with no solar charging, just the always-energized propane detector will deplete the batteries. Sure the dealer charges it up before showing it or delivering it, but just one dead battery event will significantly reduce the battery capacity. More than one, even more so.
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Old 06-25-2017, 06:59 AM   #35
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The "good news" when the dealer kills the batteries - you have a 100% legit warranty claim. Getting a brand new set of batteries "for free" (yes you do have a hassle factor) adds another year to whatever their life may be. Consider that the same dealer that killed the battery is the one who just told you everything he knows about how to use it ... hmmm .....

======

We use lead acid batteries every day in cars and trucks. They pretty much never die in under 4 years in the snow states and live a lot longer in sunshine land. We draw the conclusion that they are reliable and nothing to worry about. If we store a car or truck for six months, we expect the battery to be down a bit.

Why such a massive pain with RV batteries? In a car or truck, you rarely use more than 10 or 20% of the capacity of the battery. It is immediately charged back up. Compared to any of the chargers we talk about, an automotive or truck charge system is brutal. The best you can say for it is that it *does* get the job done quickly.

If you happen to put a .... errr .... GPS in your truck that ... ummm.... does not shut off, welcome to low battery in your truck. I have empirical data on this Change the use profile (add a GPS) and reliable becomes unreliable. Same charger, same battery, plus stupid mistake = problems.

Bob
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:15 AM   #36
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I just press the STORE button on the battery disconnect when I'm not at my trailer. Call me silly.
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Old 06-26-2017, 05:31 AM   #37
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I just press the STORE button on the battery disconnect when I'm not at my trailer. Call me silly.
Hi

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the factory could make up it's mind on what the store switch does or does not do ....That way I wouldn't have to go off and look up a bunch of stuff to see what mine does compared to yours....

=====

I came across an interesting number digging into another issue. You really can't find anything with more endorsements among the "battery nerds" than a T-105 golf cart battery. Of all the outfits that make them, Trojan is the one most people point to. These fine people seem to believe that a self discharge in the 5% to 15% per month is "normal":

http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/dat...ata_Sheets.pdf

It's at the bottom of the first page. If you believe their max number and want to stay above 50%, anything over 3 months in storage could be an issue.

Bob
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