Shore Power GFCI Tripping

[Adventure.AS]

I would recommend anyone concerned about RV electrical safety purchase the book "No-Shock-Zone" by J. Michael Sokol. Chapters 8 & 9 of the 2nd edition deals with GFCI issues. It is a handy book to keep in your AS library.

[gklott]

Originally Posted by KelloggKid

This thread got me to realizing that I have never plugged my trailer into a GFCI outlet. I have a 30A outlet at home that is non-GFCI. Guess I'd best check and see if my Flying Cloud is doing the same thing. And no this is not normal and don't let anyone tell you it is.

At our home parking location, we changed our 30A and 50A RV supply circuits to Eaton CHFGFT130 and CH250GFCS Ground Fault circuit breakers. Lowes, HomeDepot, and most electrical supply locations carry these.

Highly recommend that all AS owners use GFCI on all circuits supplying shore power to their trailer.

NFPA 70 working group has proposals to modify NEC article 551.71 requiring RV parks to provide GFCI breakers for all receptacles at the RV site pedestal. NEC 551.71(f) requires GFCI on 120V outlets at the site. Hopefully we will see this change implemented within the next edition.

The No~Shock~Zone: Part X — GFCI Testing Understanding and Preventing RV Electrical Damage does a good job explaining the situation. As the article describes, "What bothers many campers and home owners about GFCI breakers is that they’ll occasionally trip for no apparent reason. ... Let’s not call this nuisance tripping, but rather life-saving tripping."

73/gus

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by gklott

...
Highly recommend that all AS owners use GFCI on all circuits supplying shore power to their trailer. ...

Another reason a portable EMS like those from Progressive Industries or from "Surge Guard" will protect you and your trailer. They will sense a ground fault, over/under voltage and many other unsafe conditions from park power pedestals and stop power going to your rig and give you a description of the problem.

[hendy]

My experience:


Some outlets are much more sensitive to a ground fault than others. Sometimes it's a real wiring fault, and that can't be ignored.



However, I've found some overly-sensitive outlets. Changed them with new outlets, not cheap, and all was good, and I'm still alive.

[pdavitt]

One thing is for sure, using GFCI protected shore power will test how well your RV is wired. GFCI's measure the amperage differential between the AC Hot and Neutral wires, it should be zero. The threshold for tripping the GFCI is 5 mili-amps, that's .005 amps.

Normally it's an indication of a floating neutral caused by mis-wiring or a short somewhere.

In any event, for your safety, it needs to get fixed.

Pat

[Al and Missy]

Originally Posted by gklott

...

If your trailer trips a shore power GFCI breaker, this means > 5mA current is flowing on the "green" grounded conductor. All current should only be flowing on the "black" hot conductor and the "white" neutral (grounded) conductor. Nowhere in your trailer should the white and green be connected.

...

73/gus

It is my understanding that a GFCI trips when it detects a difference in current between the black and white wires greater than 5 mA, not current flowing on the green. The assumption is that if the current in the black and white wires is not the same, current is flowing somewhere else, like from the frame of a tool through the user's body to the ground. There is no safety issue with current on the green wire, only an imbalance between black and white.

It is true that white and green should not be connected in the trailer, thus the fault mentioned by others in the inverter. NEC requires that white and green be bonded only at the main distribution panel, i.e. in the house. This creates problems for some surge protectors when running from a generator. White and green have to be bonded at the generator to satisfy the surge suppressor.



Al

[pdavitt]

Originally Posted by Al and Missy

It is true that white and green should not be connected in the trailer, thus the fault mentioned by others in the inverter. NEC requires that white and green be bonded only at the main distribution panel, i.e. in the house. This creates problems for some surge protectors when running from a generator. White and green have to be bonded at the generator to satisfy the surge suppressor.Al

Al,
That is generally true unless you are installing a Pass-Through Inverter/Charger or a Pass-Through Inverter. In that case when you disconnect from shore/generator power the Inverter/Charger will automatically close a Neutral/Ground bond relay. When shore/generator power is returned, the Inverter/Charger will open the Neutral/Ground bond relay. This is true for most inverter/chargers designed for RV use.

Pat

[Mach5]

Originally Posted by SuperJoe

My appointment with my “local” dealer (45 mins away) is next Thursday, so we’ll see how that goes.

SuperJoe, any update from your service call regarding your trailer tripping the shore power GFCI? My 2019 25FB FC is doing the same and I am hesitant to take it to Fairfield for exploratory surgery unless I can steer the service techs in the right direction to fix.

Thanks in advance, Dave

[SuperJoe]

Originally Posted by Mach5

SuperJoe, any update from your service call regarding your trailer tripping the shore power GFCI? My 2019 25FB FC is doing the same and I am hesitant to take it to Fairfield for exploratory surgery unless I can steer the service techs in the right direction to fix.

Thanks in advance, Dave

Dave,

I finally spoke with a tech from Bay Area Airstream in Fairfield yesterday (yes, it took them a week to get it "into the shop").

At first the tech didn't seem to understand what my complaint was. After explaining it to him, he gave me what seemed to be a canned answer of basically "that's normal".

I then told him that I don't think that should be normal, and that I spoke with an AS rep who said it is not normal, especially if all the breakers inside the trailer were in the open/off position. The AS rep is the one who convinced me to take it in and have it look at for a possible ground fault inside the trailer.

The tech ended the call and said he'd call me back, which he did about 45 minutes later. He told me he tested everything with the trailer plugged into a normal 110v outlet, and all was fine (he said he used my 120v cord and dogbone adapter that I had in the trailer). I had to remind him that the problem only exists when plugging into a 110v gfci outlet.

He didn't seem to think they had any 110v gfci outlets there, but I suggested he find one so they can verify it's doing what I say it's doing (they have to have one somewhere in that huge building).

I was getting a strong feeling that he was somewhat annoyed that I was pushing the issue. I didn't much care about how he felt, and once again told him an AS rep told me it wasn't normal, and that they need to further investigate the issue. He ended the conversation again saying he'd have to do some more investigating and call me back. It was pushing 4:00 pm by now so I never heard back yesterday.

I think you should definitely call them and let them know you are having the same exact problem as I am, and that I have my trailer with them right now. They can't ignore both of us.

There can only be two solutions here:

1. It truly is "normal", and I guess we cannot plug into 110v gfci outlets to keep our batteries topped off.
2. It's not "normal", and AS has a serious electrical manufacturing or design problem on their hands that they need to resolve ASAP.

I'll let you know more when I here it, which should hopefully be this week.

Joe

[Mach5]

Originally Posted by SuperJoe

I think you should definitely call them and let them know you are having the same exact problem as I am, and that I have my trailer with them right now. They can't ignore both of us.

Joe, thanks for the update, and sorry you are getting the run around.

Unfortunately, I have not had much luck with the Fairfield dealership, and have found that they have no problem ignoring potential customers, both in the showroom and the service department. It finally got to the point that I decided I would rather spend my hard earned mountain of cash in Los Banos, where I felt better treated. But that is a topic for another thread...

I have a suspicion our problems have something to do with the WFCO converter/inverter/transfer switch, either from improper wiring or equipment operating outside of specifications. But that is just a hunch on my part (and not meant for anyone else to take as gospel).

Whatever the problem may turn out to be, it needs to be fixed soon, because it will not be long before all parks will be compelled by their insurance providers to install GFCI's on shore power outlets.

I will keep researching and testing, and will report back if I find anything.

Best of luck, Dave

[rmkrum]

Weird. Because I often run my 2007 Airstream with the original converter on a 110volt GFCI outlet for months with no issues. Something is ‘not right’.

[AirstreamInc]

Originally Posted by Mach5

SuperJoe, any update from your service call regarding your trailer tripping the shore power GFCI? My 2019 25FB FC is doing the same and I am hesitant to take it to Fairfield for exploratory surgery unless I can steer the service techs in the right direction to fix.

Thanks in advance, Dave

Hi Mach5,*

Please send us a direct message with your contact information and the last 6 digits of your VIN so we can share it with our Customer Service and Technical Support team. We look forward to helping you get this resolved.

You can also reach Airstream Customer Service and Technical Support at*customer_support@airstream.com*

Thank you.*

[bickp]

Hi Guys: Somewhere in this long string, I added that I am having the same issue with my 2019 FC 30' Twin.

I just sent a note to AS Customer Support so that they know of another instance.

This was just one of several items discovered during the maiden voyage. I have received a call back saying the unit is ready to pick up. I will call to make sure that they have tested using their GFCI outlet. The good news for me is that their GFCI tripped when I dropped the unit for service. They were using their HD extension cord with my Sureguard Surge Protector and got the same result that I did.

They did say that AS suggested swapping out the converter. But I think this was related to another issue about trouble keeping the batteries charged.

I'll keep you posted if the converter change made a difference with this GFCI problem.

Since this post started it was suggested we read the book RV Electrical Safety by Sokol because there are two chapters on this issue. I have done so and agree that the issue needs to be diagnosed and fixed with a clear explanation of what caused the trips.

Bick

[SuperJoe]

Originally Posted by AirstreamInc

Hi Mach5,*

Please send us a direct message with your contact information and the last 6 digits of your VIN so we can share it with our Customer Service and Technical Support team. We look forward to helping you get this resolved.

You can also reach Airstream Customer Service and Technical Support at*customer_support@airstream.com*

Thank you.*

Since I've not heard from my service dealer since last Friday, I've sent Airstream Customer Service an email with my last six VIN and contact info so they can include my trailer in sharing with their Customer Service and Technical Support team. Apparently I cannot private message them yet because I'm a new user (no big deal).

[SuperJoe]

Originally Posted by bickp

Hi Guys: Somewhere in this long string, I added that I am having the same issue with my 2019 FC 30' Twin.

I just sent a note to AS Customer Support so that they know of another instance.

This was just one of several items discovered during the maiden voyage. I have received a call back saying the unit is ready to pick up. I will call to make sure that they have tested using their GFCI outlet. The good news for me is that their GFCI tripped when I dropped the unit for service. They were using their HD extension cord with my Sureguard Surge Protector and got the same result that I did.

They did say that AS suggested swapping out the converter. But I think this was related to another issue about trouble keeping the batteries charged.

I'll keep you posted if the converter change made a difference with this GFCI problem.

Since this post started it was suggested we read the book RV Electrical Safety by Sokol because there are two chapters on this issue. I have done so and agree that the issue needs to be diagnosed and fixed with a clear explanation of what caused the trips.

Bick

Bick,

Glad to hear you've got it resolved, and that you've notified Airstream of the issue as well. I've emailed them too about the issue. Haven't heard anything yet from the dealer since I talked to them last Friday.

It sure is beginning to sound like Airstream has a recurring issue with 2019 Flying Clouds. I'm not saying it's an epidemic , but things sure point in the converter direction, especially since Dave (Mach5) is having the same exact problem on his 2019 Flying Cloud.

Lets hope Airstream resolves the issue quickly so that other units coming off the production line don't experience the problem.

[T2Airstream]

Joe,

I am an retired electrical engineer and would suggest since the issue occurs even when the circuit breakers are off, that the issue isn't with the battery charger as it's input is disconnected from the power source. THe issue is somewhere between the power feed in to the trailer and the breaker box. My first place to look would be to verify that the manufacture has not connected to neutral lead of the power line input to the trailers ground. Secondly I would then check to make certain that the manufacture has wired the shore line power correctly, in other words that the L1 (power line hot side) and Neutral leads aren't reversed. The simplest way to do this is to purchase a simple receptacle test plug (estimated less than $20 from Home Depot) and plug it into one of your 120 VAC receptacles inside your trailer, and then plug the trailer into shore power. This simple, inexpensive device has LEDs that will identify wiring issue.

I would also suggest googling up "how GFIC receptacles work" to capture first hand knowledge of GFICs.

As far as the batteries not being charged properly, this task belongs to the battery charger exclusively and sounds like a second issue.

Stay after the AirStream Rep and keep guiding the service technician's learning curve. He will thank you for the lesson he will learn and you will be able to have many worry free days enjoying the AirStream. Good luck and safe camping.

[T2Airstream]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcqzsMzM8y8

This is an excellent video on how GFCIs operate.

[ITSNO60]

Reverse polarity alone will not cause a GFCI to trip.

[SuperJoe]

Greetings all,

I've just gotten off the phone with my dealer. After looking into the issue further this week, they did confirm that I'm not crazy, and the trailer is (was) tripping 110v 15 amp GFCI outlets, which it is no longer doing. HURRAY.

The service rep couldn't go into more details just yet because he didn't have them, except to say that they found multiple wiring issues inside the trailer, noting one was in the refrigerator area. Sounds like something was going to ground that shouldn't have been.

They expect to have a more detailed list of what they fixed by tomorrow, so I'll post again with specifics when I have them.

I should note that an Airstream rep that I've been corresponding with via email acknowledged that there is some sort of problem (i.e it shouldn't do that), and that since they perform something called a HYPOT test at the factory on every new unit, wiring was the least likely culprit. Hmm. If wiring is indeed the culprit and not the converter, inverter, or something else, then I think Airstream lost something in their QC on my unit.

I expected better from Airstream, but as my brother always says "You pays your money you takes your chances". Hey, at least it will be fixed.

Stay Tuned,

Joe

[SuperJoe]

Hello All,

Well, I picked up the trailer today. While I had initial reservations about the dealers service department, I would say so far I'm pleased with them. It seemed to take them a while (1 week after they got it into their shop area - two weeks total), but the trailer is up and running with the problem resolved. Kudos to the dealer for bird dogging the issue and getting things fixed.

In a nut shell, several wiring connections on the trailer were, to put it politely, messed up. When I asked where the problem was electrically, the service tech replied "Everywhere". Not good. They found loose wiring connection and grounding problems at the inverter and water heater area.

In the inverter area they found a strain relief on ROMEX that was too tight and pinching the line, and loose WAGO connections (whatever that is). The inverter 12 volt terminal connections were also loose. They basically tightened everything up at the inverter.

Their main concern was the water heater because circuit 5 for the water heater was showing faults. The water heater had wires that were touching heater frame, which I assume was causing at least most of the ground faults.

In addition the trailer GFCI circuit breaker now works correctly (I had forgotten to mention that initially to everyone - the test button would not reset with the original problem).

The fixed/tightened/secured all the wiring problems, and the problem went away. No more trips on 15 amp 110 volt GFCI outlets. I made sure I verified this before I left, as well as testing it at my house when I got it home. The problems has been resolved.

My advice is for those of you experiencing the same symptoms to not ignore them as they are definately not normal. I'm still a little upset that a brand new trailer had so many wiring issues straight from the factory. The trailer hasn't even had the opportunity yet for a break in run. The good news is the dealer said they communicate everything to Airstream so they can see what the issues were (probably have to for warranty work). I've done the same with an Airstream rep I've been corresponding with.

I think this could have all been avoided if Airstream had better quality control. I hope my trailer is not some kind of new "normal" in the QC area. I suppose I shouldn't be too upset because they took care of me, but for the price of these trailers I expected better.

Stay safe out there.