Replacing Parallax converter with Xantrex Inverter/Charger

[worksology]

Starting from the factory-installed electrical system (2007 27' International), I'm planning a series of upgrades (new batteries, solar, genset, etc), but the first project is to replace the Parallax 7355 converter with an inverter/charger (I/C), likely one from Xantrex.

My goal is to have ALL the 110V outlets fed by this new inverter. The A/C circuit, however, I'd like to leave on shore-power only. If I understand it correctly, this should be pretty simple by just installing a new breaker box BEFORE the I/C -- one 30A circuit to feed the A/C and another to feed the I/C. Then the IC's 12V output will go to the existing 12V fuse panel, and the 110V output will feed the existing 110V breaker box. Bada bing?

So:

1) Where's a good place to install this new breaker box? Could I do it on the floor BEHIND where the converter is now? It will be largely inaccessible is the only problem.

2) It looks to me like a lot of the I/C units are BIGGER than the converter, and may be difficult/impossible to install in the same spot. Where would be a better place? Or should I look into redoing the whole Power Center for a more custom fit?

3) Is there any reason to install any other components, or replace anything else in the current system? 12V fuse board? 110V breakers? Everything looks & works good as is.

Okay, so which I/C?

I've got my eyes on a Xantrex, since they seem well-reviewed and their prices are competitive. I will be powering an iMac computer, LG LED TV, AppleTV, variety of computer components, recharging phones/iPods, and _possibly_ printing from time-to-time. I don't EXPECT to exceed 1000W of continuous power use, but I wouldn't mind some cushion, either. I've only been looking at pure sine wave units, since MOST of these devices may have negative effects on MSW power.

As far as Xantrex is concerned, that leaves me with two options:

1) Prosine 2.0
2) Freedom SW 2000

I'm not really sure what's so functionally different about these two. The first is a good 3" shorter than the second, so I'd think it might actually fit in the space below the Power Center.

Sorry I'm so verbose. Any thoughts?

[2airishuman]

it appears some of the terminology is mangled...

or at least confusing.

the p'lax is a charger/converter and can be swapped for another brand/model.

xan'rx used to have a compatible product line but NO LONGER does...

they do still offer inverters.

a current reasonable charger/converter brand is progressive dynamics, they make the intellichrger line.

just to muddy the water more...

IF solar is anticipated, a solar (dc2dc) charger/converter will also be needed.

now what's the question?



cheers
2air'

[rp709]

What I did was install a switching relay from WFO available from Best Converter. This way, all the outlets can be powered by an inverter and when shore power is plugged in it switches to that. You need a BIG inverter to power everything, which will drain your batteries in a hurry. I just used the circuit containing the TV so I could power that and a couple of other outlets that are on the circuit.

[2airishuman]

oh yeah inverters...

having ALL of the 115v outlets connected is a nice idea, but why?

one could quicky and unintentionally drain the batteries.

so having just a few connected means THINKING b4hand, not a bad thing.

inverters aren't 100% efficient and CONSUME juice, unless turned OFF.

so don't upsize too much beyond need.

have u calculated HOW QUICKLY 1000 watts will deplete 2 grp 27 batteries?

are u planning to have 4 or mor batteries?

lastly most new campers grossly over estimate how much livin will be...

OFF the grid.

IF much time is actually spent boondocking...

WATER is the primary limitation, especially with children in the equation.

cheers
2air'

[DaveFL]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

have u calculated HOW QUICKLY 1000 watts will deplete 2 grp 27 batteries?

IF much time is actually spent boondocking...

WATER is the primary limitation, especially with children in the equation.

cheers
2air'

Your 1000 watts is at 120v while the battery is 12v so you have to have 10000 watts at 12v plus conversion loss.

With extra water supply you need more waste tankage as more places don't want black or even grey water on the ground.

I used heart 2500 watt on the boat, but it was just for microwave, tv but more importantly it had the ability to be a 100 amp 12v charger that could run of the generator a/c.

[worksology]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

it appears some of the terminology is mangled...or at least confusing.

I'm sorry, where ya not keeping up?

I think it's pretty simple: I want to replace our OEM converter/charger with an inverter/charger. The latter will do 3-stage charging better than the converter's simple 1-stage charging, and will provide the ABILITY to run 110V devices from the batteries WHEN needed.

Sure, a full 1000W load will drain our current batteries in no time flat, but I'm not suggesting we'll use such a load for extended periods, nor on a single pair of Group 27s. (Project Upgrade Battery Bank is status: Future).

Having ALL the outlets wired & ready for inverted power avoids thinking ahead, yes, but it also avoids keeping track of which outlets are powered whichaway, and I like both sides of that equation. The complexity associated with making bad decisions ahead of time (choosing which circuits to power and then CHANGING my mind) outweighs the complexity of simple power management when boondocking. (I'll UNPLUG devices if I need a firm reminder). Moreover, I just don't see a reason not to. YMMV.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

now what's the question?

Well, it certainly wasn't "I'm stupid. Do I need an inverter?" or "What unrelated things will be necessary when/if I add solar?"

How about: Anyone have thoughts on those Xantrex I/Cs? They're spec'd almost exactly the same, cost roughly the same, but the Freedom is MUCH bigger.

Are there better I/C options? I don't suspect I'll ever need 2000W, even if our battery bank allowed it, so I think these two Xantrex units might be over-spec'd, but I'm having a hard time finding more reasonable alternatives.

Does my wiring plan sound right? Add a new breaker panel which becomes the "main panel", with 2 circuits: A/C & Inverter, and then use the current "main panel" as the inverter-distribution panel. Any ideas on where to install these two new items? Does anyone happen to know the available clearance once the Parallax converter is removed?

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by DaveFL

...With extra water supply you need more waste tankage...

agreed, which is why the reference is just "water" and meant to encompass.

Originally Posted by worksology

...How about: Anyone have thoughts on those Xantrex I/Cs?...?

yeah, i vote for option #3...

the RVseriesGS...

after all it's got RV in da'name.
________

have you posted or read on the rvnet forum or escapee-z forums?

lots more folk on both/either site with experience making tweaks like this

and with many more techsperts posting details.

almost anything is possible and been disclosed on those 2 sites.

keep at it!

cheers
2air'

[mello mike]

Hi Josh,
I did this upgrade to my '72 Sovereign last March. I replaced my old converter/charger with a Xantrex Freedom 10 (1000W) Inverter/Charger. All of my 120v inlets are wired to my inverter and it works terrific. This install should involve the installation of another fuse box. My inverter input is wired to the old fuse panel (along with the A/C), while the new fuse box houses my 120v inlets. I have two Size 27 batteries and they are more than sufficient to run my electronics (satellite receiver, DVD player, and LCD TV). We don't have a microwave in our Sovereign so we don't need to worry about socking it to the batteries.

I bought my Xantrex Freedom 10 for about $400 bucks and it has a built in relay to switch over to shore power when it senses this input. A fine unit and very easy to install.

My Blog has more details and pics of the installation.

[worksology]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

i vote for option #3... the RVseriesGS...

I do like that one a lot, actually. It's got some great features. But its modified-sine-wave output is why I've dismissed it completely. If I was on-board with MSW, I'd have a LOT more options to peruse, but I've kinda limited my focus to true sine wave because of the nature of the devices I'll be using. I'm quite open to being convinced otherwise.

[worksology]

Originally Posted by mello mike

I did this upgrade to my '72 Sovereign last March. I replaced my old converter/charger with a Xantrex Freedom 10 (1000W) Inverter/Charger.

I've seen your posts and they've been very helpful. I'm sure I'll be reading them again & again once I get ready to do the work. Thanks for the update, glad it's working so well for you.

Have you had any issues with the modified-sine wave output? Any distortion on the TV?

[mello mike]

Originally Posted by worksology

Have you had any issues with the modified-sine wave output? Any distortion on the TV?

Nope, none whatsoever.

[2airishuman]

clearly, pure sine wave is more desirable.

but this gets back to what, when and how used.

with big loads my genset is ON and is very very clean (the eu/inverter series from hon')

everything i might plug INTO an outlet has it's own brick for conversion/cleaning juice...

that includes the tv/puters and so on.

nothing used takes OVER ~150 watts so using small 'device specific' inverters has worked without issues, or gadget failure.

this involves a decision branch (bigger central inverter vs 2-3 small ones) much like 6v vs 12v or gas vs diesel or meat vs veggies...

my approach was "try it" using the lower cost/less UProoting approach first then switch to plan B when needed.

so far plan b is still not needed OR cost effective.
________

but u are planning to use a higher draw AC only computer and that means bigger inverter/more cells and so on...

(the new imacz have no external brick, but still convert to dc voltage i think)

or as my cab driver/spiritual leader/podiatrist sez...

"everyone travels a different path to the same place"

cheers
2air'

[ck21084]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

clearly, pure sine wave is more desirable.

but this gets back to what, when and how used.

with big loads my genset is ON and is very very clean (the eu/inverter series from hon')

everything i might plug INTO an outlet has it's own brick for conversion/cleaning juice...

that includes the tv/puters and so on.

nothing used takes OVER ~150 watts so using small 'device specific' inverters has worked without issues, or gadget failure.

this involves a decision branch (bigger central inverter vs 2-3 small ones) much like 6v vs 12v or gas vs diesel or meat vs veggies...

my approach was "try it" using the lower cost/less UProoting approach first then switch to plan B when needed.

so far plan b is still not needed OR cost effective.
________

but u are planning to use a higher draw AC only computer and that means bigger inverter/more cells and so on...

(the new imacz have no external brick, but still convert to dc voltage i think)

or as my cab driver/spiritual leader/podiatrist sez...

"everyone travels a different path to the same place"

cheers
2air'

I know this is an old thread but I thought it might be helpful to some. Wouldn't a capacitor help clean this AC power up? This could be a cheap solution if the modified sine wave causes issues for some?

[Zigidachs]

Just found this post. The stock inverter in the AS is the Parallax 7400 but is not a pure sine wave unit. I just spoke with a rep from the company and he didn't even know if the unit was a MSW!!??? Apparently it is a only 2 stage converter.

Lifeline stated that the Parallax is "ok" with their AGM batteries, but the PD ( Progressive Dynamics) units "would be better".

In our fifth wheel we had a Prosine 2.0--great unit but we also had a lot of battery power. Didn't need that much. Like most, we overestimated our use.

Another option is the Magnum Energy product line---PSW, 1000W, and a FOUR stage converter, which is best for AGM batteries.

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by Zigidachs

Just found this post. The stock inverter in the AS is the Parallax 7400 but is not a pure sine wave unit. I just spoke with a rep from the company and he didn't even know if the unit was a MSW!!??? Apparently it is a only 2 stage converter.

Lifeline stated that the Parallax is "ok" with their AGM batteries, but the PD ( Progressive Dynamics) units "would be better".

In our fifth wheel we had a Prosine 2.0--great unit but we also had a lot of battery power. Didn't need that much. Like most, we overestimated our use.


Another option is the Magnum Energy product line---PSW, 1000W, and a FOUR stage converter, which is best for AGM batteries.

Zigi,

There is a little terminology problem here. An inverter converts DC to AC. The AC should be a close to a pure sine wave as feasible to work with all AC equipment.

The parallax 7400 series are converters which convert 120 volt AC to 12
volt DC. Therefor the term "pure sine wave" does not apply to them.

What is MSW? All can find is "Masters of Social Work" or "Municipal Solid Waste"

Are you looking for a converter to replace the 7400?

Ken

[newroswell]

MSW = Modified Sine Wave, AKA, the Stair Step Wave.

[Zigidachs]

Sorry, I misspoke. I know that the converter charges the batteries, and the inverter emits AC from a DC source. The PSW -pure sine wave inverters provide the cleanest signal. The MSW -modified sine wave --seem to do well also, but not as clean as the PSW.

The Parallax converter is only a two stage unit whereas the Magnum is a 4 stage converter, best for AGM batteries. ( also recommended by a rep from Lifeline)

I would like to install AGM batteries and insure they are properly charged- ie the research. I cannot seem to find info on the inverter technology for the stock inverter in the AS--which we ordered.

I thought that the Parallax had some inverter capabilities but I assume that I am incorrect on that point. Where is the inverter in the AS, what are its characteristics or specs?
Thanks for any and all help.
ZIGI

[2airishuman]

hi zigi...

getting antsy about delivery?

a/s has used a variety of inverters in the last 10 years.

both msw and psw have been used at 500 to 2000 watts.

many are 'trace' branded units as i recall,

but email to tech/customer support should confirm what is installed now

as part of the UPgrade package.

while the p'lax is crude, the 74xx series did fine with agms in my unit,

till it failed at ~4 years 2ndary to a week of low voltage shore power, which cooked it.

the agms are 6 years old now and still juicing as new, no issues even with the crude charger.


cheers
2air'

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by Zigidachs

Sorry, I misspoke. I know that the converter charges the batteries, and the inverter emits AC from a DC source. The PSW -pure sine wave inverters provide the cleanest signal. The MSW -modified sine wave --seem to do well also, but not as clean as the PSW.

The Parallax converter is only a two stage unit whereas the Magnum is a 4 stage converter, best for AGM batteries. ( also recommended by a rep from Lifeline)

I would like to install AGM batteries and insure they are properly charged- ie the research. I cannot seem to find info on the inverter technology for the stock inverter in the AS--which we ordered.

I thought that the Parallax had some inverter capabilities but I assume that I am incorrect on that point. Where is the inverter in the AS, what are its characteristics or specs?
Thanks for any and all help.
ZIGI

The Inverter in my 2010 Classic is a World Friendship Co. WF-600T Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter. It is located just about dead center under the Sofa.

A copy of the manual is below.

The one I got has an 115VAC cord attached to it. It was not plugged into anything. I plugged it into the same 115 wall socket that the converter is plugged into. With it plugged in, the inverter output will be from the 115V trailer wiring when ever you are plugged in to shore power. This means that you do not have to turn the inverter on to get power to the dedicated inverter wall sockets.

As far as the converter is concerned, I replaced my Parallax 7455 with a Iota DLS-55 with the IQ-4 smart charger attachment. I did this to extend the Battery life with smarter charging characteristics.

My trailer came with AGMs because I ordered the factory solar package.

Hope this helps,

Ken

[Zigidachs]

Antsy? Yes!

I'm trying to perform better this time after the somewhat negative experience with the fiver. Thanks to all for your information. Without question, this site rocks! Intelligence and expertise reign!