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Old 12-13-2017, 03:29 PM   #29
PKI
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Originally Posted by tvoneicken View Post
-- snip -- 13.2v is too little and will lead to sulfation.

This is a link that showes the Charge Wizard technology boosts voltage up every 21 hours to prevent that sulfation stuff. Is that not a successful approach? Pat

https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/po...#charge-wizard
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:45 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by PKI View Post
This is a link that showes the Charge Wizard technology boosts voltage up every 21 hours to prevent that sulfation stuff. Is that not a successful approach? Pat

https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/po...#charge-wizard
Hi

Boosting the voltage above 14V (at 70F) is what actually boils batteries. The less often you do it the better. In a constant charge setting, there is no reason to do it once a day.

Bob
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Old 12-14-2017, 10:42 AM   #31
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Probably OK if you check electrolyte level often, and keep it up to level. The anti-sulphation cycles are usually so short in duration that not much boiling will occur.
Russ
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:28 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvoneicken View Post
Looking at the PD charging profile I'm not liking what I see. The bulk phase seems to be a constant voltage of 14.4 volts instead of constant current. More distubingly, the float voltage is only 13.2 volts. I have two Trojan T-105's and Trojan recommends a float of 13.5v @25C. 13.2v is too little and will lead to sulfation.
Not sure your concern if you have spent anytime understanding how these multi-stage (4-stage) Converter systems work? Both Progressive Dynamics and Boondocker 4-stage converters employ smart charging technology and actually keep your batteries safely maintained and prevent sulfation from happening. You might read the Progressive Dynamics "Battery Management 101" (see below website) to understand what happens when charging batteries both with, and without this technology. Many of us have made the switch. (Of course, as with any post here lately, there will be some "experts" who will continue to disagree with the "experts")

Check this website out:
https://www.progressivedyn.com/service/battery-management-101/

From Progressive Dynamics Battery Management 101 website:
"When the battery reaches full charge charging voltage must be reduced to 13.2 volts. This lower voltage reduces charging current to 20 to 25 milliamps, enough to replace current lost through the internal leakage present in all batteries. The Charge Wizard knows this and automatically selects STORAGE MODE of operation and reduces charger voltage to 13.2 volts."

Boondocker charge description:
4 STAGE CHARGING DESCRIPTIONS.
1. A fast charge (14.6 VDC Max) to bring a good, drained battery back up to full voltage rapidly ("Boost"). 2. A standard charge (13.6 VDC Nominal) to bring the battery up to a full charge at a safe rate to prolong the life of the battery and provide power to run 12V lighting and appliances in the vehicle/device ("Normal"). 3. A trickle/float charge (13.2 VDC) to keep the battery fresh during times of load inactivity ("Storage"). The charger automatically changes modes to accommodate changes in conditions. 4. When the converter is in the trickle/float mode (storage), the converter will periodically raise the voltage to mix the battery electrolyte to prevent stratification which can lead to sulfation.

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Old 12-15-2017, 07:16 AM   #33
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Several issues / problems with this thread , generally started from the original post and not understanding .
It is really a 2 part [ min. ] question , talking about #1 changing out a converter , #2 just throwing a solar panel into the mix .
No fault can be laid here , some one just asking questions .
On the 1st part , changing converters , there are too many to choose but limiting to one mentioned .
2nd adding solar , is hole another subject ---- you can not simply just add a solar panel [ except in the sense that if you use a small enough panel - charge rate a few amps , you will not harm batteries ] .
Out of that come a 3rd issue , what battery chemistry & matching to what ever you are have to what you want to do --- and this brings a 4th .
System design , designing a system means looking at as a hole = all the parts work together .
So we end up with mostly comments referring to just one of the parts in this mix , and some of those are correct , but without a system design [ parts working together ] and the comments on different subjects / components , many may be OK , but none are right if not part of a system .
A lot of misunderstanding is coming from what I call the chineeze affect = cheep stuff coming out that makes it easy to just add things to what you have --- the idea behind that [ from me ] is that the cost is so low , that many can give it a try , the low cost makes if easy to ignore the need for learning " because I'm not going loose much " ,
vs. building a efficient system cost more , takes some knowledge , takes some commitment of time & money to do properly .
Each component needs to work with the next , not all converters work [ well , or at all ] with all batteries , in the environment we are talking about - converting shore power 120vac to 12vdc can be simple , but we are also talking about charging batteries when we do not have AC , problem right there , " what battery " .
So the need for a programable charger - with the wide variety of batteries .
Then the next is adding solar , so now we need some type of combiner - that takes multiple sources of power , and does multiple jobs suppling 12vdc for loads and charging batteries - as charge controller that accepts multiple sources of power - 120ac , solar etc.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:50 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTF View Post
Several issues / problems with this thread , generally started from the original post and not understanding .
It is really a 2 part [ min. ] question , talking about #1 changing out a converter , #2 just throwing a solar panel into the mix .
No fault can be laid here , some one just asking questions .
On the 1st part , changing converters , there are too many to choose but limiting to one mentioned .
2nd adding solar , is hole another subject ---- you can not simply just add a solar panel [ except in the sense that if you use a small enough panel - charge rate a few amps , you will not harm batteries ] .
Out of that come a 3rd issue , what battery chemistry & matching to what ever you are have to what you want to do --- and this brings a 4th .
System design , designing a system means looking at as a hole = all the parts work together .
So we end up with mostly comments referring to just one of the parts in this mix , and some of those are correct , but without a system design [ parts working together ] and the comments on different subjects / components , many may be OK , but none are right if not part of a system .
A lot of misunderstanding is coming from what I call the chineeze affect = cheep stuff coming out that makes it easy to just add things to what you have --- the idea behind that [ from me ] is that the cost is so low , that many can give it a try , the low cost makes if easy to ignore the need for learning " because I'm not going loose much " ,
vs. building a efficient system cost more , takes some knowledge , takes some commitment of time & money to do properly .
Each component needs to work with the next , not all converters work [ well , or at all ] with all batteries , in the environment we are talking about - converting shore power 120vac to 12vdc can be simple , but we are also talking about charging batteries when we do not have AC , problem right there , " what battery " .
So the need for a programable charger - with the wide variety of batteries .
Then the next is adding solar , so now we need some type of combiner - that takes multiple sources of power , and does multiple jobs suppling 12vdc for loads and charging batteries - as charge controller that accepts multiple sources of power - 120ac , solar etc.

Sayyyy whaaaaat?? What problems are you talking about with this thread??

I think he has a pretty good "system" now with his 6V Trojan batteries, his Zamp solar, and his new PD Converter...he can always add more solar or different batteries with controller if he decides to grow, right?
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Old 12-16-2017, 09:34 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by JohnTF View Post
Several issues / problems with this thread , generally started from the original post and not understanding .
It is really a 2 part [ min. ] question , talking about #1 changing out a converter , #2 just throwing a solar panel into the mix .
..." .
So the need for a programable charger - with the wide variety of batteries .
Then the next is adding solar , so now we need some type of combiner - that takes multiple sources of power , and does multiple jobs suppling 12vdc for loads and charging batteries - as charge controller that accepts multiple sources of power - 120ac , solar etc.
You have a valid point in that the components must integrate properly, but I think that it is okay for people to post regarding components of the system based on their experience. For example, I replaced my Parallax with a PD4645, and that component change alone has benefited me... and I may never know how much but a single event where it shut down on low voltage alone could have paid the cost of the upgrade.

I also have added solar, using a Morningstar Tristar controller with the option of 6 pre-seets or program your own. It wasn't cheap and is designed to handle an off grid cabin if needed. I don't talk about it much since my brother who holds a Ph.D in Laser Optics and has been a ham radio operator since he was 12 years old designed the integration using relays and other components that even protect the system from RF damage.

All I know is that I asked him to design it so that if I had power to the converter from any source other than solar (shore power or generator) that the system give priority to the non solar source. The system works great, and I can also use external solar converters and 5 to 45 watt panels independently to charge small 12 volt 12 amp hour batteries for my CPAP.

With this system I can use solar to charge the coach batteries with higher settings than the PD allows for depending on my battery set (see the Internet for posting by 'Angry Bob' or 'Handy Bob' on battery charging, especially wet cell lead acid batteries).

Anyway, I think anyone reading the "partial answers" who goes out and spends money just thinking he/she will plug and play without system integration is guilty of not doing their homework and probably deserves what they get if it doesn't work. Just MHO.
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Old 12-20-2017, 03:02 PM   #36
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As Fairfield AS recommends, I would replace your Converter ASAP to avoid any issues...unless you want to constantly monitor your batteries with other sensors, heat monitors, etc... I don't want to spend extra time doing this, so the multi-stage converters are the way to go, IMHO...I also installed a manual battery "kill switch" on the batteries to insure there is "no power" going to my AS when I am "storing" for few weeks or more....even when plugged in. [/QUOTE]

Thanks, had Chris do the change out.
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Old 12-20-2017, 03:08 PM   #37
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I took a quick look at both company sites , the solar panel & the converter , just to have a little more info on what there are .
I would say 1st , I did not find a " expandable " label , and you had no mention of buying a kit [ charge controller etc. ] , just a 100 watt panel , and that is just a trickle charger - Ohms law saw just over 8 amps .
If you do want to get serous about solar , then designing a system [ vers. getting multiple popular products & mix & match ] .
Once you get more solar , above trickle charging , maybe a min. 20 -30 amp ++
Then putting more into a system , inverter - many of these have transfer switches - to go from shore power to battery automatically when the sense load against source , and then , again good ones will have programable charge controllers - to match your battery bank .
Then definitely have a solar system monitor , this is for many reasons , 1st off learning about your system , then watching for issues , weather maintenance or if you system is keeping up with your use .
As an example , not designing / building a SYSTME , will cause all kinds of failures / early replacement of components etc.
My last system allowed my to run 100% off grid and run AC , large color TV , microwave , large Bose stero system +++ , never got discharged more than 40% and the batteries lasted 14 yrs. .
The tell of a good system is - how long the batteries last !
The Zamp 100w I purchased includes the expandable kit. As Airstream is doing the converter switch, they've handled any additional needs.
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