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02-01-2014, 12:30 PM
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#1
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Rivet Master
2012 30' International
1997 25' Safari
1967 20' Globetrotter
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,499
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No 12 volt power at panel
My Airstream (2012 International) is in winter storage. No AC power. It has an active Solar system that maintains the batteries (4 AGM). The batteries register 13.9 volts on the controller and at the remote switch for the inverter. When I turned on the inverter, it provided 120 volts to the AC outlets. There is no 12 volt power going to the panel. The use/store switch (always in use position) does not appear to operate. Everything was operating correctly last Saturday. My guess is a stuck transfer switch. Any other ideas? Thanks Jim
__________________
Jim
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02-01-2014, 12:37 PM
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#2
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB International
Trent Woods
, North Carolina
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,120
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In my 2012 Intl the battery has separate connections to the inverter, but if your use/store relay is not working you would not have 12vdc to your breaker panel. The transfer switch should only affect AC power, between shorepower input or generator input. It should have nothing to do with DC to your breaker panel. Why don't you try a alittle rap on your use/store relay after you are sure it is supposed to be in the Use position?
Larry
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02-01-2014, 12:45 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
2012 30' International
1997 25' Safari
1967 20' Globetrotter
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,499
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Thanks Larry. My usual method of fixing? electrical items is to give them a little rap on the side. I tried that with the use /store switch, as well as disconnecting it, cleaning the contacts, and putting it back together. The little light did glow a bit but still no power. Jim
__________________
Jim
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02-01-2014, 01:54 PM
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#4
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Figment of My Imagination
2012 Interstate Coach
From All Over
, More Than Anywhere Else
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Flower
My usual method of fixing? electrical items is to give them a little rap on the side.
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Ah, percussive maintenance. Standard operating procedure of shade-tree mechanics everywhere. Remember, if violence isn't solving your problem, you're not using enough of it!
__________________
I thought getting old would take longer!
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02-01-2014, 02:02 PM
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#5
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Rivet Master
2012 30' International
1997 25' Safari
1967 20' Globetrotter
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,499
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My Airstream has 2 shore power inlets. My understanding is that there is a transfer switch that allows 1 of the inlets to be used for generator input as well as normal shore power. In my case, the generator input location is the location of the solar input. Maybe. My installation is from the dealer, not factory, and I was given some kind of instruction that I did not understand when I picked the thing up. So that is why I referenced the transfer switch. Also, my son installed an AM Solar kit on his Globetrotter and he also installed a transfer switch so it seems that sometimes the things are related. I also read that perhaps I may be having a malfunction in the solenoid associated with the use / store switch. Does anybody know where the solenoid may be located on a 30' Signature? I will use my usual "fix" of beating on the thing to see if that gets it going? If that turns out to be the problem, is there a US made upgrade available? Jim
__________________
Jim
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02-01-2014, 02:07 PM
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#6
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Rivet Master
2012 30' International
1997 25' Safari
1967 20' Globetrotter
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protagonist
Ah, percussive maintenance. Standard operating procedure of shade-tree mechanics everywhere. Remember, if violence isn't solving your problem, you're not using enough of it!
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Thank you for that. "Percussive maintenance" sounds much more genteel than " beat on the thing". I will keep trying to tidy up my act. Jim
__________________
Jim
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02-01-2014, 04:52 PM
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#7
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Rivet Master
2012 30' International
1997 25' Safari
1967 20' Globetrotter
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsbrodsky
Why don't you try a alittle rap on your use/store relay after you are sure it is supposed to be in the Use position?
Larry
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I think I get it now. Thanks Larry and thanks to all those who have posted previously with a similar issue. The use/store relay is the solenoid that is located some where that I have to find (most likely under the storage behind the settee) and it is controlled by the use/store switch. The solenoid should have two heavy wires and two smaller operating wires coming from it. So I will first introduce it to a little percussive maintenance :-) and if that doesn't work, I will add it to my small list of warrantee items that will be looked after shortly. Jim
__________________
Jim
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02-01-2014, 05:56 PM
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#8
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB International
Trent Woods
, North Carolina
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,120
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10-4, my relay is all the way forward, stbd side, but I have a 25 FB.
Larry
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02-04-2014, 05:55 AM
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#9
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Rivet Master
1995 30' Excella
Bowie
, Maryland
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protagonist
Ah, percussive maintenance. Standard operating procedure of shade-tree mechanics everywhere. Remember, if violence isn't solving your problem, you're not using enough of it!
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Royce cracked me up a couple years ago with the related term "percussive repair." I love the percussive maintenance term, too!
__________________
1995 Airstream Classic 30' Excella 1000
2014 Ram 2500 Crew Cab with Cummins 6.7L Diesel
Sold but not forgotten: 1991 Airstream B190
Sold: 2006 F-250 6.0L Powerstroke Supercab
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02-05-2014, 01:40 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
2012 30' International
1997 25' Safari
1967 20' Globetrotter
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,499
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Follow up. I found the solenoid in the bow under the setee. I don't fit under the setee. However, I have ape-like arms so with the benefit of a long screw driver, I was able to unscrew the solenoid and move it a little closer where I could remove the fuses and confirm that they were ok. Next, I checked for power at the solenoid. No power. This was weird since the inverter was producing 120V. Next, I checked the batteries out side and found that they were dead as a door nail. Again weird since the previous Saturday all the 12v stuff in the Airstream was working. Again, confirmed the inside batteries were at 13.2V. So I connected the outside batteries to the Jeep with jumper cables and every thing inside worked. So some how I have a disconnect between the inside batteries, out side batteries, and the solar system. Now given that I normally use the percussive maintenance technique for "fixing" electrical stuff, I am clearly at a loss at what to do next and there is no Lewster hanging around in the snow and wind. So I took the two outside batteries home and tried to charge them with my "smart charger" and the charger declined to get involved. Back out to the Jeep and my trusty jumper cables where I shocked and threatened the batteries for about an hour until the smart charger figured it was time to go to work and after 2.5 days, one battery was up to 13.2V and holding and the other one is presently falling in line. So now what? I still don't know why there was a disconnect in the system and for how long there has been a disconnect in the system given that my method for determining if all was well was to just peer at the controller, which I have discovered, was only measuring the inside batteries. I will put the batteries back in and try a new fix. I have made an appointment with CanAm to have a go since they put the stuff in and will most likely fix it in 5 minutes. My problem solved. A trick I learned from trying to get help on the phone where each person solves the problem by handing you off to somebody else. Jim
__________________
Jim
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02-05-2014, 03:35 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB International
Trent Woods
, North Carolina
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,120
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Your 30 footer has inside and outside batteries? I thought all newer AS had two outside batteries only. That is my configuration. If your AS was plugged in to shore power, your converter is providing 12 vdc to all dc loads, independent of your battery status, even with the Use/Store switch in store.
In addition, your solar controller is only measuring voltage from the solar panels and current through an internal shunt in the controller. If you did this after market, you may have a different setup. In a normal AS setup, if your batteries die and you are plugged in to shore power, you would never know it. Unplugged from shore power, you might not know it until it is dark and battery voltage has dropped enough to not power anything.
As an aside, if your batteries were so dead that you could not charge them from a smart charger, their capacity is now so reduced you should replace them.
If your AS was outside, it is hard to understand how your batteries totally died with them charging part of every day and with you not using DC at night, especially if you kept the switch in the Store position.
What ever you discover, I think it is good practice to leave the switch in the store position when you are absent and let the solar panels keep the batteries charged.
Larry
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02-05-2014, 04:06 PM
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#12
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Rivet Master
2012 30' International
1997 25' Safari
1967 20' Globetrotter
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,499
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Hi Larry. It is a dealer installed solar system. About 300 watts of panel, 4 group 24 AGM batteries at two inside and 2 outside plus a 30 amp controller. The controller measures amps input, battery volts, and %charged status. The Airstream is stored at a storage facility with no ac power. I only have gone to shore power when I need air conditioning while camping and power was available. The inverter is 2000 watts and is wired to provide power at all outlets. The one battery that I may have just rescued is holding a charge but it has had no load applied yet. I have left the Airstream in use mode since new because I don't like to fiddle too much with the thermostat, as in constant reprogramming. The other battery is now up to 75% after 24 hours of charging. I expect it to be at 13.2v later this evening. I am thinking it might be something as simple as poor connections at the outside batteries due to extreme cold, expand, contract, and my lack of checking the clamps since new. I still don't understand the failure of the controller to warn me of a problem. Jim
__________________
Jim
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02-06-2014, 04:28 AM
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#13
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB International
Trent Woods
, North Carolina
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,120
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I could make a suggestion if I had a better idea of how your batteries are wired up. If they are all in parallel your controller is only going to tell you solar panel output when there is sun and the battery voltage of the "good" batteries when there is no solar panel output. % charged is not a useful parameter as it is really a proxy for voltage. A more useful device is something like the Trimetric that will let you better explore battery performance, but with 4 in parallel I do not know how you would see a problem in one battery.
Larry
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02-06-2014, 08:55 AM
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#14
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Rivet Master
2012 30' International
1997 25' Safari
1967 20' Globetrotter
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,499
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I have made a schematic and have concluded that the negative terminal clamp on the outside battery that is connected to the negative buss bar that feeds the power panel, must have been loose. In other words, my sloppy maintenance of something as simple as a battery clamp, has lead to a system failure. My batteries are now fully charged at home and as soon as it warms up a tad and the blizzards are over, I will install them and test everything with my trusty thingamajig. Jim
__________________
Jim
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02-06-2014, 09:19 AM
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#15
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB International
Trent Woods
, North Carolina
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,120
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Good luck, but those outside batteries will never have their original capacity meaning amp-hours.
Larry
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02-06-2014, 09:27 AM
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#16
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Rivet Master
2009 23' FB Flying Cloud
Canmore
, Alberta
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Flower
I will install them and test everything with my trusty thingamajig. Jim
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I resemble that remark!!
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02-06-2014, 02:10 PM
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#17
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Rivet Master
2012 30' International
1997 25' Safari
1967 20' Globetrotter
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsbrodsky
Good luck, but those outside batteries will never have their original capacity meaning amp-hours.
Larry
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Oops! Another lesson learned the hard way. This must be related to asking for directions. Who can I blame for this? I will most likely have to replace four since the batteries are all supposed to have the same specs.
Sure am looking forward to our next trip. Jim
__________________
Jim
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02-06-2014, 05:55 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
2012 30' International
1997 25' Safari
1967 20' Globetrotter
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinTin
I resemble that remark!!
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Having lived in Alberta for 30 years, I understand you perfectly. Jim
__________________
Jim
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