Lithiums: Is my dealer giving me the straight scoop?

[TravlinMan]

Originally Posted by switz

Also the sub-woofer on all three Airstreams we have owned were always powered drawing power 24/7

I removed the sub woofer and used the RCA cable they had down there to plug in a portable JBL speaker with its own internal battery and on off switch. I used RCA barrels and an RCA to mini adapter to plug in the speaker and it functions perfectly. Powers itself, can be turned on and off, charges from the USB outlet above the dinette, has its own volume control and the cable fits through the sliding plastic part of the screen door so the speaker can be placed outside.

I find bluegrass doesn't need that much bass.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by '55 Airlight

While Bob's advice (especially in his reply to the original poster) is good and his information correct, I take exception to his claim that Lithiums can't compete in cost against AGM or other lead acid batteries.

If I can get a 15 year life out of my 300Ah Lithium battery bank, that equals three sets of AGMs out of which I was happy to get a five year life. And the cost is about the same. The many advantages of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries argue for them, and the cost -- if you take the long view -- is comparable.

Michael

Hi

I won't argue with the point *if* you can get 3 or 4X the number of charge cycles / years use out of Lithiums. Right now, I'm not sure there is enough data to say that's the case. It may well be true, we have not run enough systems for 10 or 15 years to really know. There are certainly all sorts of strange horror stories about short life on any sort of battery. That makes real data tough to come up with. EV usage probably would be the best source of hard information. Even there, Lithiums are fairly new compared to a 10 year horizon.

Yes, there is a body of battery manufacturer data, I'd take that as part of the answer, but not all of it. Lab testing procedures are rarely duplicates of the real world. One example - Most of it is single cell rather than stack data. Things like cell mismatch are not included in what they test. Does that matter? Time will tell.

Upfront cost wise, you will spend more for lithiums. Will you own your trailer for > 4 years? Maybe you will. Will the next batch of lead acid's cost a lot less? Don't hold your breath (though lead prices *do* vary). Will we have better / cheaper lithium batteries in 5 or 10 years? I think that's *very* likely.

Will the early adopters "learn by doing"? You bet they will. That's true in any area. Lithiums in RV's are no different. This is still more DIY oriented than drop in. There's always a cost associated with learning things.

Lithium support electronics are better today than they were 5 years ago. Don't even think about comparing to 10 years ago. Maybe all the issues are figured out. I'd bet things will continue to improve on the support electronics side as well. Will that impact real world life of a stack? I'd bet it will ...

Bottom line - I'd say it's a bit murky. Same is true on lead acid life. Predicting how long any battery type will last in a specific trailer .... not easy.

Bob

[TouringDan]

There are lots of advantages to Lithium Ion batteries, but I don't believe cost is one of them, at least based on my experience. I have two golf cart batteries that I bought at Sams Club for about $75 each 6 years ago and they are still going strong. Now having said that, I will replace with lithium when it is time.

Dan

[OTRA15]

Thanks for the details. In your 23D what size cable(s) did you run to/from that 300 amp-hour battery, and where are the cable runs? In our FC20 that same street side location might work under the rear dinette seat.

Thanks,

Peter

PS -- if you have posted about your lithium installation elsewhere please advise and I will check there.

Originally Posted by switz

We put a 600 amp-hour lithium iron phosphate battery under the sofa in the front of our 2014 Classic. It weighed just 168 pounds and replaced four Lifeline 6Vdc 300 amp-hour AGM batteries that each weighed 96 pounds. Our tongue weight dropped from 1,375 to 1,175 pounds. We have nine 100 watt solar panels on the roof. That new 600 amp-hour battery can actually run one or the other air conditioner without shore power for a finite period of time.

In our 2015 23D we put a 300 amp-hour lithium ion phosphate battery that weighed 84 pounds just in front of the street side wheel well. That weighs less than the two stock lead acid batteries and gives me about 250 amp-hours of power. We have five 100 watt solar panels on the roof of the 23D.

These two batteries want to be warm to be charged, so solar can keep them topped up on the sunny days.

Note that the propane lek detector is never turned off in a stock trailer and could drain the batteries over a period of time. Also the sub-woofer on all three Airstreams we have owned were always powered drawing power 24/7. So these parasite loads need to be found and neutralized if at all possible for long term no shore power storage.

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

PS -- if you have posted about your lithium installation elsewhere please advise and I will check there.

Different trailer, but this might help.

[OTRA15]

Thanks Scott, nice installation! I asked you a minor question there.

Have a good weekend.

Peter

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by TravlinMan

For me it's just that I don't wanna keep my batteries inside the trailer.
. . .

What is your concern with having lithium batteries inside the trailer? The risk of fire from them failing?

Thanks,

Peter

[TravlinMan]

Yep. I know it's unlikely but it was also unlikely that Samsung would produce an explodin phone.

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by interstateflyer

AM Solar in Springfield, OR (Eugene) are probably the foremost installers of lithium batteries in Airstreams. I would trust their input. I suspect that they have a lot more experience with lithium installs than BayArea Airstream.http://amsolar.com

In the end they're all trying to sell you something. "Buy my stuff, not his. My stuff is made in Heaven."
It's up to the buyer to do his research, and then decide which is best, or do nothing.

[paiceman]

Just a suggestion from a former GM who managed among others a team of technicians responsible for in excess of 40,000 deep cycle 12v batteries each year. I have AGM batteries on a 50 amp system with a Boondocker 1260 HW - 4 stage converter. The converter "hits" at 14.7 when plugged into shore, drops quickly down to 13.6 and then floats at 13.2 again while plugged in.

For the money I would say AGMs for our applications give better payback than the current crop of Lithiums, basically what Uncle Bob posted.

[TravlinMan]

Well, also, in the 5ish years those AGMs last (I had one last 10 years in a Jeep), lithiums will get better and cheaper. 'Impossible!' I know.... But still true.

[TravlinMan]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

In the end they're all trying to sell you something. "Buy my stuff, not his. My stuff is made in Heaven."
It's up to the buyer to do his research, and then decide which is best, or do nothing.

Ain't that the truth. Sometimes ya get what ya pay for and sometimes ya pay way too much cause someone convinced ya it was necessary.

[sgschwend]

Could someone clarify what the term battery in the trailer means.

Is the idea to have the "house" battery cabled to the trailer and 100% remote?

As far as I know all AS have the battery in the trailer. A plastic box that can keep spills and vapors out of the trailer isn't really keeping a overheated and catching on fire battery out of the trailer.

Because a dead short on any large battery no matter what chemistry is going to start stuff burning/melting. At least some of the newer batteries have an internal safety disconnect even though the ones I a familiar with are Lithium there is no reason a lead acid battery couldn't have the same safety.

Here is a link to car fires, roughly 25% are electrical caused. http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-researc...s-and-patterns

[TravlinMan]

My batteries are on the tongue in a separate box. Not in a plastic one inside the trailer but in a metal one outside the trailer. So that's, 'not in the trailer.....'

I don't mind havin em in very close proximity. I just don't want em under my head when I sleep or under my butt when I sit, if I can avoid it. I understand it may be over cautious and that's fine. I don't sleep with my phone on the bed either.

[OTRA15]

Would that rule out putting AGM's inside the trailer too?

['55 Airlight]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

I won't argue with the point *if* you can get 3 or 4X the number of charge cycles / years use out of Lithiums. Right now, I'm not sure there is enough data to say that's the case. It may well be true, we have not run enough systems for 10 or 15 years to really know.

Hi! Thanks for this informed and cogent contribution to the thread!

As a famous wag once opined, It's not what you don't know that makes you a fool, it's what you don't know that you think you know.

What I know about the projected life of my new LiP04 battery bank is only my hopes for a long life. I've owned my little '55 airframe trailer for ten years (I've put 65K miles on the new Dexter Torflex axle) and hope to use it for another ten years (I'm 70 yrs old next month.) Like the life of my Lithium battery bank, only time will tell.

Maybe my assumption is wrong -- I've been wrong before -- but I'm mostly equating battery life with charge cycles. Really, I only use the trailer during a continuous three month period in the spring/summer. So I disconnect the system using the main breaker on the BMS. The photovoltaic panels, then, no longer charge the batteries, and nothing -- not even parasitic loads -- deplete it during it's 9 month hiatus. Hope being the operative word, I hope that helps to promote long life.

But in truth, even with the lavish expense of the lithiums, because they are under my bed in my small trailer, no other battery will do. I had a pair of Group 27 flooded cell batteries under there for the first 6 years, in explosion proof boxes vented according to NFPA 1192 out the side and down through the floor. But watering those batteries was an ugly chore.

When they eventually wore out (which I hastened by depleting beyond their 50% capacity) I replaced them with AGM batteries which do not outgas poisonous and explosive gasses during the charge cycle -- with one caveat. When they are performing correcting, or more accurately, when the charger is performing correctly. Potentially dangerous outgassing can occur if they are overcharged, which is a malfunction to be sure, and a remote possibility, but possible nonetheless.

But since there's no outgassing with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, one of my admittedly obsessive worries (poisonous explosive battery outgassing inside the trailer) is completely obviated.

Best,
Michael

[OTRA15]

Thanks Michael for the thoughts and details. Obviously you have accepted the very low risk of fire from the lithium batteries being inside? Perhaps there was no other logical place to put them.

Thanks again,

Peter

[lsbrodsky]

I am late to the discussion because I ignored some of the posts, but you do not decide to go Lithium because of a better cost/benefit ratio or something like that. Hell, you did not buy an Airstream because of any cost advantage over other alternatives.
The single biggest advantage to Lithiums is that you can suck amp-hours out of them and not worry about letting them sit partially depleted and then charge them full, when you can, very quickly. The discharge/charge capability is far more user friendly then lead-acid technology.
Sure, you can get more amp-hours at less weight, if you need that. And maybe they will indeed give us more life.
I wanted a capable inverter/charger, battery monitor, and solar charger. The incremental cost to install Lithiums designed for the listed equipment was a no brainer.
Larry

[pmclemore]

Larry, I agree with you 100% - except that I don't think you can get more amp-hours at less weight. The LiFePos have that nailed down.

Pat

[lsbrodsky]

Pat, that is what I meant to say, about Lithiums. Sorry I was obtuse.

Larry