Lithium or Deep Cycle Batteries?

[rickst29]

Instead of replacing my 2* "90Ah" Group 24 SLA with another pair of Group 24 or Group 31 SLA, I will have just 1* "150Ah" LFP in the coach.

I decided that I won't need more than 150Ah, and chose this one (direct from China): https://www.aliexpress.com/item/12V-...006197898.html. There are cheaper batteries and more variety of options from other Alibiba stores, but their feedback ratings are much worse than the vendor I chose.

They toss in a "wall charger" for free - although I'll probably never need to use it, I can set in on top of the battery in the house (along with the monitor) when I take the battery indoors for Winter storage. So my grand total was: $740 battery, $250 Convert Upgrade, $50 Battery Protector, and $30 Battery Monitor. About $1100. My current Solar Controller is completely programmable and adequate. Under bad weather (with clouds), my idling SUV can also behave as a 200-360W Solar panel to do a recharge. (24V, ~ 8-15A depends on RPM).

I'm now waiting for goodies to arrive (along with a large Credit Card bill ).

[Changing Itinerary]

Hi,

I appreciate this and a few other threads on all things that enable boondocking.

I'll be picking up a 2019 Flying Cloud 30 later this month with two Lion Energy Safari UT LiFePO 4 100 Ah batteries in place of the Interstates.

In the past I had good experiences with Lead Acid and AGMs. My first camper was a 2008 retro Shasta made to look like 1961. It was made by Viking back when they were somehow owned by Thor. I invested in four Trojan T-125s (not a typo, the slightly bigger brother of the T105s) for 480 Ah. I tucked a Victron 702 BMV in a watertight pond pump box, installed two Zamp sidewall ports on the battery box, and connected portable panels. I later added a Victron MPPT solar controller. I never lacked for power. As much as I loved my solar panels I loved those batteries more. In retrospect I was battery rich and solar poor.

We sold the Shasta to our daughter and bought a 2018 Travato class B that came with two 12V Group 31 AGMs and 200W of solar on top. I used a portable panel in the factory installed sidewall port and later added a third 100W hard panel on the roof. The Zamp controller worked like a charm but I missed being able to check on things with my iPhone via bluetooth like I had with the Shasta. I also had to manage my amp hours more. When we had good sun all was well with the world. We "beachdocked" for 10 days straight along the California coast and never lacked for power. Oregon was a different story. In retrospect I was slightly battery poor and solar rich.

So why did I choose Lithium this time around and why Lion Energy?

In negotiations I knew I did not want the 12V Interstates. I thought I wanted 6V VMax AGMs. The dealer priced Interstate AGMs at $320 each. Although I could source the Vmax for ~$279 I wrestled with the weight I would be introducing to the tongue if ended up with 480 or more Ah.

As I talked with the dealer they mentioned they had a new relationship with Lion Energy. After some research and a call with Lion, I asked the Airstream dealer to apply my two $320 credits to a pair of Safari UTs.

Lion offers a Lifetime warranty, longer than Battle Born or LifeLine. They weigh in at 20 pounds so they are lighter as well. Their built-in BMS measures partial cycles, meaning a 50% discharge counts as only a half a cycle. With Lithium's longer lifetime, they said I can start with two and add two or four later and not see any appreciable drop in the bank's performance.

I could not pass it up.

I do have a budget and want to invest in a balanced system now, and upgrade later in a balanced way, meaning I want to avoid the rich/poor imbalance of my two previous rigs.

So for phase 1 I decided to have everything on the ground. I am having the dealer install a second Zamp Solar Port on the other side of the battery box from the factory installed one. I called the good people at Zamp and learned they upped their wire gauge when they transitioned from "Sidewall/Rooftop" ports to the newer Solar Port, increasing its capability from 200W to 230W. I'll be purchasing a Victron 712 with a battery temperature sensor and built in bluetooth (yay!), a single Zamp 230W portable kit to start and a Champion Dual Fuel Inverter Generator as a emergency power source. We plan on fair weather camping from June to November. That should give us a chance to learn how much power we consume in an Airstream in more than one season. If I find I need more solar I can pick up another portable kit for the second port or proceed to the roof.

I am still trying to determine the details of phase two. It depends on a few factors: whether we want to winter in AZ or stay "out there" somewhere, how successful the Zamp portable kit is for park-in-the-shade-but-put-the-panel-over-there camping. We have enough roof for 600W. If I go to the roof I do know I want to tilt. With my Travato a flexible portable kit tilted at the sun outperformed my rooftop but flat and immovable panels.

Any advice for this RV and solar oldie but Airstream newbie? Thanks in advance.

Scott

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by Changing Itinerary

Hi,

I appreciate this and a few other threads on all things that enable boondocking.

I'll be picking up a 2019 Flying Cloud 30 later this month with two Lion Energy Safari UT LiFePO 4 100 Ah batteries in place of the Interstates.

In the past I had good experiences with Lead Acid and AGMs. My first camper was a 2008 retro Shasta made to look like 1961. It was made by Viking back when they were somehow owned by Thor. I invested in four Trojan T-125s (not a typo, the slightly bigger brother of the T105s) for 480 Ah. I tucked a Victron 702 BMV in a watertight pond pump box, installed two Zamp sidewall ports on the battery box, and connected portable panels. I later added a Victron MPPT solar controller. I never lacked for power. As much as I loved my solar panels I loved those batteries more. In retrospect I was battery rich and solar poor.

We sold the Shasta to our daughter and bought a 2018 Travato class B that came with two 12V Group 31 AGMs and 200W of solar on top. I used a portable panel in the factory installed sidewall port and later added a third 100W hard panel on the roof. The Zamp controller worked like a charm but I missed being able to check on things with my iPhone via bluetooth like I had with the Shasta. I also had to manage my amp hours more. When we had good sun all was well with the world. We "beachdocked" for 10 days straight along the California coast and never lacked for power. Oregon was a different story. In retrospect I was slightly battery poor and solar rich.

So why did I choose Lithium this time around and why Lion Energy?

In negotiations I knew I did not want the 12V Interstates. I thought I wanted 6V VMax AGMs. The dealer priced Interstate AGMs at $320 each. Although I could source the Vmax for ~$279 I wrestled with the weight I would be introducing to the tongue if ended up with 480 or more Ah.

As I talked with the dealer they mentioned they had a new relationship with Lion Energy. After some research and a call with Lion, I asked the Airstream dealer to apply my two $320 credits to a pair of Safari UTs.

Lion offers a Lifetime warranty, longer than Battle Born or LifeLine. They weigh in at 20 pounds so they are lighter as well. Their built-in BMS measures partial cycles, meaning a 50% discharge counts as only a half a cycle. With Lithium's longer lifetime, they said I can start with two and add two or four later and not see any appreciable drop in the bank's performance.

I could not pass it up.

I do have a budget and want to invest in a balanced system now, and upgrade later in a balanced way, meaning I want to avoid the rich/poor imbalance of my two previous rigs.

So for phase 1 I decided to have everything on the ground. I am having the dealer install a second Zamp Solar Port on the other side of the battery box from the factory installed one. I called the good people at Zamp and learned they upped their wire gauge when they transitioned from "Sidewall/Rooftop" ports to the newer Solar Port, increasing its capability from 200W to 230W. I'll be purchasing a Victron 712 with a battery temperature sensor and built in bluetooth (yay!), a single Zamp 230W portable kit to start and a Champion Dual Fuel Inverter Generator as a emergency power source. We plan on fair weather camping from June to November. That should give us a chance to learn how much power we consume in an Airstream in more than one season. If I find I need more solar I can pick up another portable kit for the second port or proceed to the roof.

I am still trying to determine the details of phase two. It depends on a few factors: whether we want to winter in AZ or stay "out there" somewhere, how successful the Zamp portable kit is for park-in-the-shade-but-put-the-panel-over-there camping. We have enough roof for 600W. If I go to the roof I do know I want to tilt. With my Travato a flexible portable kit tilted at the sun outperformed my rooftop but flat and immovable panels.

Any advice for this RV and solar oldie but Airstream newbie? Thanks in advance.

Scott

Welcome to the Airstream and AirForums community. I'm glad you joined us and are participating in the solar and battery forums to share your varied experience with these products. You have a very good plan to get started with your Airstream.

The only thing I can add beyond your experience is my experience with solar on the Airstream factory pre-wire. I have 400W of solar that I self-installed on the factory pre-wire with a Victron 100/30 controller. It works great and can produce 30A of charging in full sun when my lead-acid batteries can accept the amps. This is with the panels as flat as I could get on the curved Airstream roof. Adding solar panels to the roof of your Airstream is really easy with the factory pre-wire. You need to buy the smallest versions of the 100W panels so they will fit on the Airstream's narrow space between the A/C and Roof edge. So you may find that adding rooftop solar is not much more difficult that adding a portable suitcase to your Airstream.

I believe you may have the new 8 gauge factory pre-wire. I've done the calculations and even the thinner 10 gauge pre-wire can handle 600W of solar when configured in a series-parallel. Several of us have done 400W series-parallel on the factory pre-wire, but you could be the first to do 600W. I would be the first if I had room on the roof for 600W.

Again, welcome to the forum!

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by Changing Itinerary

Hi,
. . .
I am still trying to determine the details of phase two. It depends on a few factors: whether we want to winter in AZ or stay "out there" somewhere . . .
. . .

Welcome to the forum!

May I suggest, for your phase two questions, that you start your own thread in the Boondocking forum?

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f382/

Or maybe the Solar forum?

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f448/

This will give you the best direct feedback, and will allow this thread to stay more focused on the lithium vs. deep cycle battery issues.

Happy trails!

Peter

[kpm]

Originally Posted by AirMiles

[...]I believe you may have the new 8 gauge factory pre-wire.[...]

FWIW I checked my 2018 25FB the other day. My trailer also has the 8 AWG wire, so it would appear that in some cases at least the larger wiring appeared as early as 2018. My trailer shipped with 180W factory solar.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Changing Itinerary

Hi,

I appreciate this and a few other threads on all things that enable boondocking.

I'll be picking up a 2019 Flying Cloud 30 later this month with two Lion Energy Safari UT LiFePO 4 100 Ah batteries in place of the Interstates.

In the past I had good experiences with Lead Acid and AGMs. My first camper was a 2008 retro Shasta made to look like 1961. It was made by Viking back when they were somehow owned by Thor. I invested in four Trojan T-125s (not a typo, the slightly bigger brother of the T105s) for 480 Ah. I tucked a Victron 702 BMV in a watertight pond pump box, installed two Zamp sidewall ports on the battery box, and connected portable panels. I later added a Victron MPPT solar controller. I never lacked for power. As much as I loved my solar panels I loved those batteries more. In retrospect I was battery rich and solar poor.

We sold the Shasta to our daughter and bought a 2018 Travato class B that came with two 12V Group 31 AGMs and 200W of solar on top. I used a portable panel in the factory installed sidewall port and later added a third 100W hard panel on the roof. The Zamp controller worked like a charm but I missed being able to check on things with my iPhone via bluetooth like I had with the Shasta. I also had to manage my amp hours more. When we had good sun all was well with the world. We "beachdocked" for 10 days straight along the California coast and never lacked for power. Oregon was a different story. In retrospect I was slightly battery poor and solar rich.

So why did I choose Lithium this time around and why Lion Energy?

In negotiations I knew I did not want the 12V Interstates. I thought I wanted 6V VMax AGMs. The dealer priced Interstate AGMs at $320 each. Although I could source the Vmax for ~$279 I wrestled with the weight I would be introducing to the tongue if ended up with 480 or more Ah.

As I talked with the dealer they mentioned they had a new relationship with Lion Energy. After some research and a call with Lion, I asked the Airstream dealer to apply my two $320 credits to a pair of Safari UTs.

Lion offers a Lifetime warranty, longer than Battle Born or LifeLine. They weigh in at 20 pounds so they are lighter as well. Their built-in BMS measures partial cycles, meaning a 50% discharge counts as only a half a cycle. With Lithium's longer lifetime, they said I can start with two and add two or four later and not see any appreciable drop in the bank's performance.

I could not pass it up.

I do have a budget and want to invest in a balanced system now, and upgrade later in a balanced way, meaning I want to avoid the rich/poor imbalance of my two previous rigs.

So for phase 1 I decided to have everything on the ground. I am having the dealer install a second Zamp Solar Port on the other side of the battery box from the factory installed one. I called the good people at Zamp and learned they upped their wire gauge when they transitioned from "Sidewall/Rooftop" ports to the newer Solar Port, increasing its capability from 200W to 230W. I'll be purchasing a Victron 712 with a battery temperature sensor and built in bluetooth (yay!), a single Zamp 230W portable kit to start and a Champion Dual Fuel Inverter Generator as a emergency power source. We plan on fair weather camping from June to November. That should give us a chance to learn how much power we consume in an Airstream in more than one season. If I find I need more solar I can pick up another portable kit for the second port or proceed to the roof.

I am still trying to determine the details of phase two. It depends on a few factors: whether we want to winter in AZ or stay "out there" somewhere, how successful the Zamp portable kit is for park-in-the-shade-but-put-the-panel-over-there camping. We have enough roof for 600W. If I go to the roof I do know I want to tilt. With my Travato a flexible portable kit tilted at the sun outperformed my rooftop but flat and immovable panels.

Any advice for this RV and solar oldie but Airstream newbie? Thanks in advance.

Scott

Very interesting post and data on this thread! I was scanning the internet and ran across recent positive post back up to the Lion Li's...seems these guys originally were from Battle Born?? Anyway, also saw a great price offered at an RV show about $699/each! Would be great to get the price down to that level...maybe call around! Lots of good data on this site backing Lion choice...

http://www.rvnetwork.com/topic/13526...tery-question/

[TouringDan]

Always good to have competition. I have two BB lithium’s and I am very happy with them. Looking at the Lion specifications I have a couple of comments/questions. Comment- nice that these lithiums can charge down to -4 F (I assume Fahrenheit). Wondering how they do this? My BB can’t be charged below freezing (32 F). Question- lifetime warranty, but how do we know when you have hit 3,500 cycles? Question- 100% DoD and a lifetime warranty? Assuming the cells are similar to what is in my BB, how can they do this? Is this just marketing?

Dan

[waninae39]

LiON have higher density. lighter, do not out gas and can be used at upto 80% vs 50% load for lead acid.

downside, cant use them below freezing

[pdavitt]

Originally Posted by TouringDan

Always good to have competition. I have two BB lithium’s and I am very happy with them. Looking at the Lion specifications I have a couple of comments/questions. Comment- nice that these lithiums can charge down to -4 F (I assume Fahrenheit). Wondering how they do this? My BB can’t be charged below freezing (32 F). Question- lifetime warranty, but how do we know when you have hit 3,500 cycles? Question- 100% DoD and a lifetime warranty? Assuming the cells are similar to what is in my BB, how can they do this? Is this just marketing?

DanAttachment 340142

Sometimes you have to read the fine print.
Pat

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by waninae39

LiON have higher density. lighter, do not out gas and can be used at upto 80% vs 50% load for lead acid.

downside, cant use them below freezing

- Lead acid batteries with thick lead-antimony plates, Golf Cart Batteries, are designed to be deeply discharged to 80% repeatably. The downside of lead-antimony plates is they gas more and use more water. For every positive there is a negative.

- Lead acid batteries with thin lead-calcium plates, like Marine/RV Deep Cycle & Automotive Starting Batteries, can only be discharged to 50% without severely shortening their lives. But they gas less and use less water.
Source: https://www.solar-electric.com/learn...ttery-faq.html

The Duracell EGC2 (Deka GC15) batteries use thick lead-antimony plates: http://www.ieeco.net/Documents/Batte...kaSolarC&L.pdf

Trojan T105 batteries use thick lead-antimony plates: https://ressupply.com/batteries-and-...looded-battery

Now you know the rest of the story.

[TouringDan]

Originally Posted by pdavitt

Sometimes you have to read the fine print.
Pat

Pat

Thanks for pointing that out. Now I am bothered that Lion lists only the discharge temperature range but doesn’t identify it in their specifications. Both discharge and charging temperature ranges should be listed IMHO:

Discharge Temperature Range- -4 to 131
Charging Temperature Range- 32 to 113

Dan

[kenfconnor]

Originally Posted by rickst29

Instead of replacing my 2* "90Ah" Group 24 SLA with another pair of Group 24 or Group 31 SLA, I will have just 1* "150Ah" LFP in the coach.

I decided that I won't need more than 150Ah, and chose this one (direct from China): https://www.aliexpress.com/item/12V-...006197898.html. There are cheaper batteries and more variety of options from other Alibiba stores, but their feedback ratings are much worse than the vendor I chose.

They toss in a "wall charger" for free - although I'll probably never need to use it, I can set in on top of the battery in the house (along with the monitor) when I take the battery indoors for Winter storage. So my grand total was: $740 battery, $250 Convert Upgrade, $50 Battery Protector, and $30 Battery Monitor. About $1100. My current Solar Controller is completely programmable and adequate. Under bad weather (with clouds), my idling SUV can also behave as a 200-360W Solar panel to do a recharge. (24V, ~ 8-15A depends on RPM).

I'm now waiting for goodies to arrive (along with a large Credit Card bill ).

Rickst29. I checked that link to Alibaba and I just hope the product is good and lasts a long time. There were a ton of disclaimers and I cannot see much probability of a warranty claim being honored. Also they indicated only 2000 cycles which is lower than other well known brands. While it is a few hundred dollars cheaper I dont think I could risk the $600+ to go this route vs $900 for the proven brands. But hopefully it will be a great product. Let us know how that works out especially if you can measure the actual capacity vs the 150 AH claimed.

[Rocinante]

Beware previous misinformation in this thread. Lithium batteries can be discharged (e.g. “used”) at battery temps well below freezing. Lithium batteries cannot be charged unless battery temps are above freezing. Note again, the temp of the batteries is what matters, not the air temp. Your battery’s BMS should track battery temp and protect them from being charged until they are warm enough. If you put the batteries inside, as we did, and you’re in the trailer, the chance your batteries will ever get below freezing and refuse to be charged is very low. Different story if you leave them on the tongue, of course. OTOH, the temp of batteries under load will generally be a bit above ambient, so an air temp of 32 doesn’t necessarily mean the batteries will be at that temp.

BTW, we went all the way “down the rabbit hole,” after repeated frustrating experiences with 12v wet cells. We’re incredibly happy with the result and have never regretted our decision. We have 400AH of lithium batteries, 650 watts of solar, and a 3,000 watt hybrid inverter. All Victron components, except of course for the panels themselves. We love it.

Oh, and we left our generator home for this year, as it’s clear we no longer need it!

[rickst29]

Originally Posted by kenfconnor

Rickst29. I checked that link to Alibaba and I just hope the product is good and lasts a long time. There were a ton of disclaimers and I cannot see much probability of a warranty claim being honored. Also they indicated only 2000 cycles which is lower than other well known brands. While it is a few hundred dollars cheaper I dont think I could risk the $600+ to go this route vs $900 for the proven brands. But hopefully it will be a great product. Let us know how that works out especially if you can measure the actual capacity vs the 150 AH claimed.

I agree about the "warranty" - it would only consist of full or partial refund if it didn't meet specs on arrival. But chemistry is chemistry - if the "commodity" cells inside are built well and 100% new (and they are), the advertising claims really don't matter.

I would get only 2000 cycles if I discharged 100% (down to the BMS cutoff), and recharged all the way to the BMS over-voltage cutoff every time. That figure would be about right for ALL LFP batteries with 10.0V and 15.0V BMS limits - even if some advertisements claim otherwise. But that's about 200 cycles in nice conditions - indoors at a nice temperature. It would be even less in high-temp and low-temp situations, frequently encountered during our camping trips.

BattleBorn and some other sellers provide charts for Depth-of-Discharge versus average number of cycles expected before the battery shows symptoms of failures. With my relatively low typical DOD, and storage in the coach (and even in the House for Winter), I really expect to get more than 5000 cycles, although I'll be selling the trailer before reaching that endpoint.

This was a great comment. We should note, however, that hardly anyone in USA offers a 150Ah battery. I feel that you shouldn't mix 50A with 100A in parellel on the same String, so nearly all USA alternatives would push me into 2*100Ah batteries (at much higher total cost).

I will post my testing results when the battery has arrived (in about a month).