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03-22-2011, 05:49 PM
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#1
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2 Rivet Member
2008 27' Safari FB SE
Mountainair
, New Mexico
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 22
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Lithium ion battery
Has anyone had any experience with lithium ion batteries? I'm talking about replacement batteries for the trailer. When I was at the Tampa RV show in January a vendor had them available ?? for auto, marine, and RV use. Now, I have LI batteries for my Ryobi power tools and they are Wonderful. Expensive yes but they hold a charge, are very lightweight and produce lots of power. The batteries that the vendor had on display were probably a tenth of the weight of my AS batteries (AGM). The company is Lithionics Battery, Lithionics Battery. Their stuff sure caught my attention but it also made me wonder if this was a "too good to be true" thing.
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03-22-2011, 05:58 PM
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#2
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4 Rivet Member
2007 31' Classic
Pulaski
, Tennessee
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 261
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Did they quote any prices for a typical trailer application?
__________________
Steve & Beth
TAC AL-4
AIR 22763
07' Classic 31, 11' Dodge 3500 Cummins
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03-22-2011, 06:16 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
2005 19' Safari
GLENDALE
, AZ
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,453
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I would think these would be really expensive for an Airstream. We have Nickel-metal-hydride batteries in our Prius, and the dealer wants $4000-5000 for a replacement battery pack; and Lithium-ion batteries are even more expensive. Of course, you probably don't need as big a battery pack for auxiliary power for a trailer as you do for a hybrid automobile. However, it would probably be hard to beat the cost of lead-acid batteries in this application.
Just a guess...
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03-22-2011, 06:28 PM
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#4
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Wise Elder
2010 30' Classic
Vintage Kin Owner
South of the river
, Minnesota
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,169
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Really good AGMs cost maybe 20 cents a watt-hour.
Li-ion batteries are typically around $2 a watt-hour. The main advantages over lead-acid are light weight and small size. There are important disadvantages, such as the fact that the battery will become unstable and explode if any cells are reverse charged, as will happen if the entire battery is discharged completely. They will also explode under a wide variety of other conditions.
The ones in phones and laptops have considerable protective circuitry. There are still occasional fires, but at least the batteries are relatively small.
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03-22-2011, 06:38 PM
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#5
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2 Rivet Member
2008 27' Safari FB SE
Mountainair
, New Mexico
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 22
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They did quote prices and unfortunately I neglected to write the prices down. What I recall is that the prices didn't seem astronomical especially in light of the fact that their smallest battery that I looked at was supposed to replace two 6 volt golf batteries and it weighed 12 POUNDS! I've been thinking a lot about boondocking and solar and the battery size and weight seemed to be one of the limiting factors. My '08 27' FB has a small battery box and those LI batteries really got my wheels turning. I recall the sales guy saying that the company could build a special size and/or capacity if someone needed something different. It's a local, to me anyway, company in Clearwater, FL.
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03-22-2011, 06:50 PM
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#6
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2 Rivet Member
2008 27' Safari FB SE
Mountainair
, New Mexico
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 22
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Lithionics calls the batteries a Never-Die Battery. It has circuitry that shuts down the battery if unattended. Just push the button on the top of the battery to wake it up. No idea about any other issues it may have. I'm not trying to push this battery or company, I'm just curious if any else has any info.
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03-22-2011, 06:55 PM
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#7
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,508
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The weight and draw capacity of Li-ions are quite impressive and would be a real asset to any solar charging system save on important item....SAFETY!!!!
They might have a long way yet to go before they are ready for prime time.
__________________
lewster
Solar Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
Victron Solar Components and Inverters, Zamp Solar Panels, LiFeBlue and Battle Born Lithium Batteries, Lifeline AGM Batteries
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03-23-2011, 06:10 AM
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#8
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Addicted
1971 27' Overlander
Currently In: Skowhegan
, ME
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 703
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I remember them talking about these on the HGTV RV whatever you call it for this past year....you might see if you can find it online.
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03-23-2011, 01:25 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
1997 34' Limited
1970 27' Overlander
South of Atlanta
, Georgia
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,709
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In the aviation world, there have been problems with them catching on fire/overheating when simply carried in the cargo hold. As a result, there are significant restriction of how many and where they can be carried. I would be hesitant to go to sleep on top of a pair of them in my Airstream.
__________________
Craig and Carol
1997 34' Excella 1000
1970 27' Overlander, International
2009 Ford F150 5.4L
ProPride hitch with 1400# bars
AIR 41028
TAC GA-8
WBCCI 10199
Past President Southeastern Camping Unit (12)
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03-23-2011, 01:52 PM
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#10
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4 Rivet Member
2007 31' Classic
Pulaski
, Tennessee
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 261
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THe long delay of Toyota implementing a plug in option for the Prius was caused due to problems with Lion batteries (fire hazard) and the work it took to perfect them so they were no longer a hazard. I'd wait a while and let this technology mature before investing in them.
__________________
Steve & Beth
TAC AL-4
AIR 22763
07' Classic 31, 11' Dodge 3500 Cummins
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03-23-2011, 02:47 PM
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#11
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Master of Universe
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 12,711
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How long has this company been around? Will they be there next year if there are problems? What kind of warranty do they offer?
What do they say about fire hazards?
It sounds great. The newest batteries for the new drill I got charge in far less time than the older ones.
How do they compare in capacity to AGM's? Can you remember the approximate price?
Will you need to make the battery box larger?
Gene
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03-25-2011, 11:02 AM
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#12
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2 Rivet Member
2008 27' Safari FB SE
Mountainair
, New Mexico
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 22
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OK, I came into this discussion looking for answers and everyone has created more questions. Good ones too, so...... I called a very helpful Mr. Phil Silverhorn at Lithionics and got at least some questions answered.
Since I teach machining at a St. Petersburg high school and I was trying to get some answers before I had my next class come in I'm sure I didn't think of everything.
First, with a LI system you wouldn't need to have a bigger battery box and in fact the LI batterys would take up less space but the batteries could be put into a case that would be the size of your existing batteries so that you could use your same hold downs. The LI batteries also wouldn't be in multiples like most of us have now so no series connections between batteries. Lithionics recommends replacing lead acid/AGM batteries at a 2 to 1 ratio, meaning if you have a 100 amp hour system you would replace it with a 50 ah LI battery.
Now to the cost. If you had a 200 ah system a 100 ah LI battery would cost $1457. That's a lot but looks interesting if you're off the grid a lot. First they recharge quickly, they last a lot longer and they provide very steady power. Mr. Silverhorn told me he had an RV customer install one of their 200 ah LI system and he was so thrilled with it that he had just come back and was having them install another 200 ah's.
Now, last but not least is the safety issue. The exploding cell phone and laptop and fire thing was with lithium polymer batteries. The batteries that Lithionics uses are made with lithium iron phospate which was developed in 1996 at the University of Texas. Their batteries are approved by the FDA for food related uses and for medical uses and have UNDOT approval. According to Mr Silverhorn if you decided to severely overcharge your LI battery at worst it would de-gas and smoke.
Like I said, I'm a school teacher so I'm probably not going to run over to Lithionics and replace my nearly new AGM batteries. It's not in the budget at this time and my wife would probably shoot me if I did, but in the long haul retirement is at most three years away and I definitely want to boondock a lot more so...
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03-25-2011, 11:49 AM
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#13
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Master of Universe
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 12,711
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Thanks for getting some questions answered.
Until a lot of people buy these, the price won't come down and most of us won't buy them. It may start with million dollar MoHo's and eventually these may make sense for us to buy. It's like LED's—price has been coming down and manufacturing is figured out and more people buy them.
Gene
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03-25-2011, 12:24 PM
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#14
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2 Rivet Member
2008 27' Safari FB SE
Mountainair
, New Mexico
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 22
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Gene,
One thing I forgot to mention; Mr. Silverhorn said that Lithionics has the second largest stockpile of the lithium material for batteries in the US. Sounds like the company has made a considerable investment and is in it for the long haul.
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03-25-2011, 12:47 PM
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#15
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Master of Universe
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 12,711
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I don't have a lot of trust in what sales people tell me. Probably many more are honest than are not, but it is human to promote your product. I hope the company sticks around and prices come down. By the time you are ready to purchase, I would guess the prices would be substantially lower and the company will have a track record. By that time I will probably have AGM's. Thanks again for researching this.
Lew posted more about AGM's on another thread—it's the last post (#23): http://www.airforums.com/forums/f368...ons-74963.html
Gene
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03-29-2011, 11:30 PM
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#16
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Stubborn but learning
1973 31' Excella 500
washougal
, Washington
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 110
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What about LI
Batteries out of a boneyard prius or other hybrid with a stepdown transformer and cuircuitry to monitor and shut sown if overheated or over charged. This is what I am thinking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk8r29
OK, I came into this discussion looking for answers and everyone has created more questions. Good ones too, so...... I called a very helpful Mr. Phil Silverhorn at Lithionics and got at least some questions answered.
Since I teach machining at a St. Petersburg high school and I was trying to get some answers before I had my next class come in I'm sure I didn't think of everything.
First, with a LI system you wouldn't need to have a bigger battery box and in fact the LI batterys would take up less space but the batteries could be put into a case that would be the size of your existing batteries so that you could use your same hold downs. The LI batteries also wouldn't be in multiples like most of us have now so no series connections between batteries. Lithionics recommends replacing lead acid/AGM batteries at a 2 to 1 ratio, meaning if you have a 100 amp hour system you would replace it with a 50 ah LI battery.
Now to the cost. If you had a 200 ah system a 100 ah LI battery would cost $1457. That's a lot but looks interesting if you're off the grid a lot. First they recharge quickly, they last a lot longer and they provide very steady power. Mr. Silverhorn told me he had an RV customer install one of their 200 ah LI system and he was so thrilled with it that he had just come back and was having them install another 200 ah's.
Now, last but not least is the safety issue. The exploding cell phone and laptop and fire thing was with lithium polymer batteries. The batteries that Lithionics uses are made with lithium iron phospate which was developed in 1996 at the University of Texas. Their batteries are approved by the FDA for food related uses and for medical uses and have UNDOT approval. According to Mr Silverhorn if you decided to severely overcharge your LI battery at worst it would de-gas and smoke.
Like I said, I'm a school teacher so I'm probably not going to run over to Lithionics and replace my nearly new AGM batteries. It's not in the budget at this time and my wife would probably shoot me if I did, but in the long haul retirement is at most three years away and I definitely want to boondock a lot more so...
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03-30-2011, 12:20 AM
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#17
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Rivet Master
2005 25' Safari
Salem
, Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filterman
Batteries out of a boneyard prius or other hybrid with a stepdown transformer and cuircuitry to monitor and shut sown if overheated or over charged. This is what I am thinking about.
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Hi, batteries out of hybrid cars are liquid and or fan cooled and controlled by the vehicle's computer. Also most are little batteries made in a series amounting to around 330 volts. I don't think I would want to experiment with any of those.
__________________
Bob 2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent" Small Silver Castle
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
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03-30-2011, 12:55 AM
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#18
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Stubborn but learning
1973 31' Excella 500
washougal
, Washington
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 110
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I wonder how many small batteries there are in these modules? Just thinking. I believe the new hybrids have li in them and not the polymer type either. Have to get on the alternative power threads for this one. I know these can kill if not handled properly. Wouldnt it be nice though.
http://www.toyotapriusbattery.com/
http://www.kronospark.com/index.php/...FUhrKgodaXxkzw
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03-30-2011, 01:33 AM
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#19
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Stubborn but learning
1973 31' Excella 500
washougal
, Washington
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 110
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