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05-01-2016, 09:13 AM
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#1
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Rivet Master
Mountain View
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 573
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Lithium batteries – where to buy?
Hi Guys,
I am planning to install 200-400 Ah lithium batteries. What are the reliable sources of the batteries? AM Solar is too expensive. Another source I found is Elite Power Solutions. Are you familiar with the second one? Can you suggest other sources?
Thank you,
Artur
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05-01-2016, 11:01 AM
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#2
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3 Rivet Member
2011 27 FB International
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 228
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Depends on how involved of an install you want.
Complete DIY, http://elitepowersolutions.com/ is good and several on airforums use their cells (it's what I used). You'll have to get someone to do install or learn a lot and design your system.
Less DIY. AMSolar is more knowledgeable on RV applications, but possibly more expensive. I also like the cell monitoring from elite better, but AMSolar puts together a package with everything you need [except the charger]. Their new batteries looks more interesting. http://www.amsolarrv.com/lithium/
Much easier drop in replacement. I've no idea of the quality of the stark batteries, but if I realized the effort on the DIY I might have more heavily considered this path. https://starkpower.com/ with a charger converter from http://www.progressivedyn.com/lithiu...y_charger.html
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05-01-2016, 11:20 AM
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#3
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Rivet Master
2006 23' Safari SE
Biloxi
, Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 8,278
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If I hold out long enough my next trailer will come with them from Airstream.
__________________
MICHAEL
Do you know what a learning experience is? A learning experience is one of those things that says "You know that thing that you just did? Don't do that."
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05-01-2016, 12:10 PM
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#4
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedpuppy
Depends on how involved of an install you want.
Complete DIY, http://elitepowersolutions.com/ is good and several on airforums use their cells (it's what I used). You'll have to get someone to do install or learn a lot and design your system.
Less DIY. AMSolar is more knowledgeable on RV applications, but possibly more expensive. I also like the cell monitoring from elite better, but AMSolar puts together a package with everything you need [except the charger]. Their new batteries looks more interesting. http://www.amsolarrv.com/lithium/
Much easier drop in replacement. I've no idea of the quality of the stark batteries, but if I realized the effort on the DIY I might have more heavily considered this path. https://starkpower.com/ with a charger converter from http://www.progressivedyn.com/lithiu...y_charger.html
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The PD-9100L charges the LiPo batteries at 14.6VDC……………..much higher than the 14.2 VDC that 'we' (AM Solar) have found top be optimal after extensive testing of a variety of different cells. . No mention of the 'float or 'silent' voltage after that batteries are fully charged either. That might be one of the advantages of being 'took expensive'……as anything we sell or use has been through the ringer, literally and figuratively! Just be careful out there and remember…..YTOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!!!
They also might have tailored these units to the requirements of the 2 lithium battery sources that they list on their web site: Stark Power and Relion.
And just for clarification, the "Master Tech" that PD refers to in the same sectarian is not me, but Master Techs, Inc, a wholesale supplier of electronic equipment for the RV industry in Marshall, MI.
__________________
lewster
Solar Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
Victron Solar Components and Inverters, Zamp Solar Panels, LiFeBlue and Battle Born Lithium Batteries, Lifeline AGM Batteries
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05-02-2016, 10:32 AM
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#5
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Rivet Master
Mountain View
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 573
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Thank you Guys! This is helpful.
My reference to AM Solar being too expensive is just subjective matter. This is too expensive for me. I am sure they are providing a good products, but out of my range at the moment.
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05-02-2016, 11:00 AM
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#6
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Full Time Adventurer
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic
, USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,748
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I purchased mine from Elite Power Solutions, they use GBS cells. The cost savings is pretty substantial. And I've been running these for several months now. We just had a week of nonstop rain and clouds. And I never once had to break out the generator. Lithiums have been game changers for us.
You get what you pay for, but there is a certain level of misdirection on this forum.
That being said, to be fair to AMSolar, since they don't have full details on their site, I can only guess that the Victron system is including the charge controller and inverter all in one. Victron has designed things for tight integration. If that is the case, then the prices are good for retail.
__________________
Family of 5 exploring the USA with a Ram Power Wagon & Airstream in tow.
OUR BLOG | INSTAGRAM
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05-02-2016, 11:41 AM
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#7
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,952
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Bono, you have broken ground to find us hitch solutions. Now find us a lithium package that works for a price folks can afford. What is your price point? Pat
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05-02-2016, 01:16 PM
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#8
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Rivet Master
2008 25' Classic
Full Time
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,309
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I'm hoping for a form factor similar to current batteries with built in battery management. Stark has those but still too pricey, hopefully more companies will come out with that form factor. Just drop them in and connect the existing cables. I'm planning on upgrading to a Magnum 1000w inverter/charger which has a fully programmable charger. My feel good price right now would be $1000 for 200ah lithium batteries but currently runs about $1900 from Stark. I may have to wait a long time so a couple of new 6v 220 ah will have to do.
Kelvin
__________________
2008 Classic 25fb "Silver Mistress"
2015 Ram 2500 6.7L Cummins. Crew Cab, 4x4, Silver
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05-02-2016, 01:51 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
Mountain View
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 573
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PKI, there is no real budget limit that I have in mind. The system will cost that much as it needs to cost. I will not try to be cheap with the components. Sometimes I do not see the point in paying the premium. There are more providers of good products. Still trying to figure out the size of the system (panels / batteries).
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05-02-2016, 02:07 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,952
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Bono - A valid price point would be value for the investment. At $2K for a pair of G24 Li-ion batteries you see a 10x factor over the Walmart G27 upgrade. Takes a bit of cleaver justification to overcome that delta. Unless of course weight is a consideration, along with storage location, and life span. So far, I can't make the scales balance without a battery price point of around $1K, which still represents a stretch for our utilization profile. Interested to see what you find. Good luck. Pat
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05-02-2016, 02:25 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
Mountain View
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 573
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I need to put the batteries into the trailer. AGM deep cycle are expensive and in a longer run the price difference should not be that significant. Lithium works also better for solar setup and I believe that 80-90% of the cases we will be boondocking (and I am not planning to get generator).
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05-02-2016, 03:16 PM
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#12
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Full Time Adventurer
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic
, USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,748
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I wrote about this on my blog: https://boldandadventurous.com/our-d...-upgrade-pt-1/ - if you are going to source the cells the price comes down significantly. I couldn't source them myself because I'm on the road and don't have time to wait 2-3 wks shipping time from China.
__________________
Family of 5 exploring the USA with a Ram Power Wagon & Airstream in tow.
OUR BLOG | INSTAGRAM
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05-02-2016, 03:39 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
Mountain View
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 573
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Thanks, I will read your blog later today. However, I have noticed that you mentioned costs comparison of 200Ah made from 2x 100Ah vs. 200Ah. I asked about this Elite and they told me that the 200Ah cells are a newer generation and thus more expensive.
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05-02-2016, 07:15 PM
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#14
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Full Time Adventurer
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic
, USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,748
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Chemistry is the same. They have different connectors which are on opposite ends and are in a larger pack and have more Ah per pack. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ So, define "new generation". They are new. I just kind of felt it was like iPhone 6 vs. iPhone 6s when I looked into the specs. You can find GBS cells sold elsewhere too. And other companies make BMS's.
Pro tip, the DIY EV community has a lot of detailed info on Lithium setups. The RV community is years behind in knowledge. And most of the 3rd party suppliers are catering to the EV community. You could get overwhelmed with youtube videos on the subject too.
__________________
Family of 5 exploring the USA with a Ram Power Wagon & Airstream in tow.
OUR BLOG | INSTAGRAM
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05-03-2016, 08:00 PM
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#15
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJRitchie
I'm hoping for a form factor similar to current batteries with built in battery management. Stark has those but still too pricey, hopefully more companies will come out with that form factor. Just drop them in and connect the existing cables. I'm planning on upgrading to a Magnum 1000w inverter/charger which has a fully programmable charger. My feel good price right now would be $1000 for 200ah lithium batteries but currently runs about $1900 from Stark. I may have to wait a long time so a couple of new 6v 220 ah will have to do.
Kelvin
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Kelvin,
The MMS 1012 does not have the firmware for using the 'custom ' charge programming found in the ME-RC remote. You will need the MS 2012 or higher model for that feature to work.
Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center*AMS Lithium Batteries
Lifeline AGM Batteries**Magnum Inverters***Victron Energy Components
541-490-6357
__________________
lewster
Solar Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
Victron Solar Components and Inverters, Zamp Solar Panels, LiFeBlue and Battle Born Lithium Batteries, Lifeline AGM Batteries
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05-06-2016, 08:22 AM
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#16
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Rivet Master
2008 25' Classic
Full Time
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,309
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Looking at the MMS1012 manual I found in the charger section:
The MMS Series inverter/charger uses default settings that are adequate for most installations (see Table 6). However, you can adjust these parameters using Magnum’s optional ME-RC50 remote.
Then I looked at the Magnum RC 50 manual. There is a table showing all the setup parameters. The Setup section also has links to the Magnum site for inverter/charger compatibility but when I use those links they don't go to anything worthwhile just links to the documents area where there is no compatibility document. But I did find a pull down menu for compatibility. The MMS1012 is either at Rev 1.0 for Level 2 compatibility or Rev 1.4 for Level 3. Can't tell until it gets hooked up. Looking at the Setup table the Custom settings for battery charging are >=Level 3. Are currently shipping MMS1012 shipping with Rev1.4?
So what can you do with the RC 50 connected to an MMS1012 Level 2 when using AGM batteries.
Or are you saying you can't custom program a lithium battery bank?
Can the firmware be upgraded on these devices?
__________________
2008 Classic 25fb "Silver Mistress"
2015 Ram 2500 6.7L Cummins. Crew Cab, 4x4, Silver
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05-06-2016, 08:45 AM
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#17
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Full Time Adventurer
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic
, USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,748
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here is a handy reference
__________________
Family of 5 exploring the USA with a Ram Power Wagon & Airstream in tow.
OUR BLOG | INSTAGRAM
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05-06-2016, 08:51 AM
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#18
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Rivet Master
2008 25' Classic
Full Time
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,309
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Thanks Bold. The remote I'm referring to is the Magnum ME-RC50. This is supposed to allow access to advanced settings on a Magnum Inverter/Charger. Now I'm not sure what the combo of the ME-RC50 and MMS1012 Inverter charger can do. If I order these items how do I know what firmware level I'm getting on the remote and the inverter/charger?
Kelvin
__________________
2008 Classic 25fb "Silver Mistress"
2015 Ram 2500 6.7L Cummins. Crew Cab, 4x4, Silver
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05-06-2016, 09:57 AM
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#19
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,508
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As I said before: ANY VERSION of the MMS 1012, regardless of what remote you use WILL NOT ACCEPT THE CUSTOM CHARGE PROGRAMMING FROM THE REMOTE.
In addition, AFAIK, Magnum has no plans to upgrade the charging firmware in the MMS series any time soon.
Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center*AMS Lithium Batteries
Lifeline AGM Batteries**Magnum Inverters***Victron Energy Components
541-490-6357
__________________
lewster
Solar Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
Victron Solar Components and Inverters, Zamp Solar Panels, LiFeBlue and Battle Born Lithium Batteries, Lifeline AGM Batteries
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05-06-2016, 12:31 PM
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#20
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Rivet Master
2008 25' Classic
Full Time
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,309
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Lew, I was looking around and found this post of your from last June. Was this an error?
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...ml#post1640246
Kelvin
__________________
2008 Classic 25fb "Silver Mistress"
2015 Ram 2500 6.7L Cummins. Crew Cab, 4x4, Silver
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