How tough are the AGM"s

[jjgoodie8]

Hello all,
My 2017-6 month old 25' brand new international has when parked completely drained the upgraded AGM batteries to 6v. I have two dealer installed solar panels with the read out. After the 3rd time the dealer has narrowed the issue to the AS stock converter failing and is replacing it. I'm reading that many have had this issue and the AS stock converters just are not up to the task. So I have two questions for all you experienced AS-ers if you would chose to give me your opinion.

1) This is an AS issue and my new upgraded AGM batteries have been fully drained 3 times. Now they hope they figured out the culprit, but I also have new batteries which have been challenged to say the least. Should they replace my batteries also?

2) I have been reading some very knowledgeable experienced persons issues with batteries and converters. It seems like AS doesn't have this figured out yet either. I have two solars and have boon docked successfully for 3 days using mostly the heat at night. The solar kept up nicely, 12.8 volts down to 12.2 in the am. So when it works, it keeps up nicely. So now that this converter has failed should I upgrade it to a better model?. I don't even know if AS will do this for warranty work but I'm tired of the trips and want resolution.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Consider how forums work:

People with problems show up to complain. People with no issues simply stay out camping. This creates a "problem bias" in any forum.

Next, the "conventional wisdom" takes hold. It may or may not be correct, but it's what "everybody knows". In the case of converters, take a look at how many references you will find to "single stage" converters. Airstream has not used anything described (or functioning as) a single stage converter for many decades.

Another layer is the fact that people rarely want to blame their own actions for a problem. That's just human nature.

===

If your dealer has swapped out the converter three times, that strongly suggests that the dealer is a bit "challenged" in terms of fixing things. It is no different than a car dealer putting three new engines in your car. Converters rarely fail. My guess is that even the first swap out was not needed.

Batteries are pretty simple. They have a very limited capacity. You have a lot of loads in the trailer. The built in monitoring is pretty simplistic. Managing the capacity and loads is more a function of understanding what is what than it is of reading this or that meter. The solar charger will only do just so much. Keeping up the batteries just on solar means *very* tight load management.

To answer the questions:

1) Batteries have a warranty. AGM's do not like full drain situations. Have yours checked in the spring and possibly replaced.

2) As long as the trailer is in warranty JC (AS mothership) is pretty good at fixing things. Dealers are a bit of a mixed bag.

3) There is no magic converter that will let you run on solar longer. Sorry, but that's just the way it it. A temperature compensated controller will do a little bit better job in the cold or extreme hot. That will take a bit of effort to install.

By far the best thing to do is to put in a proper battery monitor system. Victron makes them. There are lots of other people that also make good ones. That will give you a better idea of what is going on than looking at a voltage on the battery ....

Lots of fun

Bob

[wulfraat]

I am a little confused with what you believe the core issue is regarding charging of the batteries.

A Converter, converts shore-power (120v) to 12v (nominal) for charging the batteries while the trailer is plugged into 15/20/30/50 amp service.

A Solar Charge Controller takes voltage from the solar panels (~18v), downgrades to the appropriate battery charging voltage (~13.5-14.5v) to charge the batteries when the sun is out.

Do you believe you are having an issue with battery charging using the (A) the Converter or (B) the solar charge controller? your airstream has both of these pieces of equipment and the 2 systems work independently.

Finally, note that neither system may be flawed. It is well known that if you leave a current generation Airstream sit parked (without any sun for your solar panels to work and not plugged into shore power) the batteries will get drained due to the carbon monoxide detector and inverter, both of which draw a current from the batteries even when you put the trailer in "store" mode. It takes about 2-3 weeks to slowly drain and kill 2 batteries just leaving the trailer sit in "store" mode (assuming no solar charging is happening).

[jjgoodie8]

Thank you
wulfraat,

The batteries have drained 3 times overnight with nothing on, so it went back to the dealer for trouble shooting. This is over a 6 month period. One time I had it plugged into the shore power, it tripped the breaker inside the trailer and the 20amp in the garage. So I took it to the dealer and they found everything working well. This issue has been confusing because normally when I park the trailer for a couple of days for restocking for our next trip, everything works well. My fridge and heater worked fine on solar and while boon docking which pleasantly surprised me. So I drove it home unplugged it, winterized it, turned off the power switch for trailer, (The Co detector stays on) and it was at 6v the next day. So it is back in the shop now and they said the converter was being replaced and they would check the life of the batteries. I will take Uncle Bob's advice and see how they work after the dealer tests them and I get the results. We are leaving for FL in a month and hope all the bugs have been worked out. Thanks for the help, just learning and appreciate the advice.

Jim & Sue



[QUOTE=wulfraat;2040281]I am a little confused with what you believe the core issue is regarding charging of the batteries.

A Converter, converts shore-power (120v) to 12v (nominal) for charging the batteries while the trailer is plugged into 15/20/30/50 amp service.

A Solar Charge Controller takes voltage from the solar panels (~18v), downgrades to the appropriate battery charging voltage (~13.5-14.5v) to charge the batteries when the sun is out.

Do you believe you are having an issue with battery charging using the (A) the Converter or (B) the solar charge controller? your airstream has both of these pieces of equipment and the 2 systems work independently.

Finally, note that neither system may be flawed. It is well known that if you leave a current generation Airstream sit parked (without any sun for your solar panels to work and not plugged into shore power) the batteries will get drained due to the carbon monoxide detector and inverter, both of which draw a current from the batteries even when you put the trailer in "store" mode. It takes about 2-3 weeks to slowly drain and kill 2 batteries just leaving the trailer sit in "store" mode (assuming no solar charging is happening).[/QUOTE]

[Bill M.]

My guess is that you would be better off taking the batteries to a battery dealer for that brand and see if you can get them replaced before their warranty runs out. Or it might have already. Is the date or a code marked on the batteries?

[wulfraat]

Wow - quite a mystery mess. I wonder if one of the plates internal to one of the batteries is shorted out. Have you noticed if the batteries are “bulging” any from internal heat / pressure build up?

As part of your troubleshooting I would completely disconnect / remove both batteries from the system and check their independent voltage.

Keep us posted as you continue to troubleshoot.

[Tim A.]

Something odd is going on.

Oh so many years ago, we installed solar in our 2002 Bambi using a very good, multi-voltage controller for the solar panel. Then, after boiling away the battery with the converter that came with the Bambi, we replaced it with a Progressive Dynamics multi-voltage converter and bought and installed an AGM battery. That battery has now served for many years (I hate to think how many), withstanding having the trailer connected over months to shore power and/or being charged by the solar panel. We don't boondock, but do use the battery (without shore power) often when traveling.

If we disconnect from shore power and turn off the solar panel, the battery still shows over 12v without any load applied. For us, the AGM battery has been very tough.

Tim

[rmkrum]

I have a set of flooded GC-2 6 volt batteries that got boiled badly last year. Water was way below top of plates. They were so dead the MPPT solar controller could not even turn on. Sigh. Left the OEM charger on by accident.

As a desperate, what-the-hell it’s broke anyway measure, I refilled them with distilled water, put a quick charge on them with the old battery boiler single stage charger, then unhooked after a week at about 12 volts, and let the solar system build a long slow charge on them. I did set the MPPT controller to ‘boondock’ mode, which boosts the charge to a much higher voltage. Temperature sensor is installed.

They may now be well below normal capacity, but they are now good enough to run a fantastic fan all day in the sun and still have about 12.6+ volts on them by morning. I can run my LED lights in the evening for an hour or three. Good enough for now. In the spring, replacements are in order, and I’ll rely on solar to keep them going.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

If you believe there is a load in your trailer, put a recording clamp amp meter on the battery lead and let it run. Look at the log after a few hours and see what's going on. If you think it's a constant load, you may not need the record function. The key is taking data in order to isolate the problem. Simply guessing that it's space aliens or haunted converters is not going to get anything fixed.

Bob

[m.hony]

Several months ago, like May or June, we went camping.
Unbeknownst to be, my brake lights were on the entire weekend on my Nissan Pathfinder.
The Optima Yellow Top was completely dead.
I was able to charge the battery by tricking the charger- I connected the charger to the dead battery and then to a good battery with jumper cables to trick the charger- The charger has to detect voltage to start. After charging started, I removed the booster cables to the good battery. After the charger got the dead battery to over 12 volts, I put it back in the car. I started the car and checked the battery with a volt meter. The battery had 13.83 volts while the car was idling.
The car still starts. The battery still holds a charge.
It was better to jump through all those hoops and hurdles than to buy a new battery.
Not sure of 3 times being dead is that much worse.

[Leadvox]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Consider how forums work:

People with problems show up to complain. People with no issues simply stay out camping. This creates a "problem bias" in any forum.

Next, the "conventional wisdom" takes hold. It may or may not be correct, but it's what "everybody knows". In the case of converters, take a look at how many references you will find to "single stage" converters. Airstream has not used anything described (or functioning as) a single stage converter for many decades.

Another layer is the fact that people rarely want to blame their own actions for a problem. That's just human nature.

===

Bob

Uncle Bob, this is amazing analysis.

I started doing research on Solar about a year ago. I have found some very interesting and enlightening information. The costs have also dropped considerably.

Here is one site where a gentleman has been living off grid for many years. I found his insight biased, but his logic seems pretty solid.

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/...ging-puzzle-2/

I have not dealt with a dealership regarding solar. My opinion is that they may not be maximizing solar potential with their setups.

One of the Joys for me in owning an Airstream, Albeit and older one, is learning about all these subsystems. I now know more about propane systems, 12v systems, wire gauge, plumbing systems, Amps, watts, rivets, sikaflex, LEDs, towing, and solar systems than I ever imagined I would. Owning a trailer is one thing, Having an Airstream hobby is another level.

[cazual6]

I concur with what Bob said

[gypsydad]

Couple notes from my experiences; I too upgraded to AGM's on my 2014 25' FC few years back, after the first Interstates went bad 2 months into owning. I also installed a manual "knife" type kill switch when I replaced with the AGM's; did not replace the converter, but monitored when I would plug into shore power. I would make sure the kill switch was off, when I was not using the AS. No issues from then on till I sold it recently. Knowing what I know now from my experiences and others on this Forum, there are issues with the single stage converter ruining many a battery (I know some will argue, its not a "single stage converter, but AS Customer service said it was in those years.)
I still believe replacing the stock converter on a 2017 model or older, with a multi stage converter, is a must to be safe. Uncle Bob has several good points to follow also. Many of us don't have the right equipment to check the voltages/amps or monitor output on a recording device. I think a good multistage converter, a good set of batteries (AGM's, wet cell, or even 6V Golf Carts) verified with no bad cells, will carry most of us through with proper monitoring and making sure the power is completely killed. Same issues on most all of these threads...unusual to hear of a replacement multi-stage converter is bad. my 2 cents...

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Airstream service may have said this or that. Airstream documentation and the written documentation on the converters has not described the stock converters as "single stage" for a *very* long time. Indeed by the way modern terminology describes things, there never has been a "single stage" converter.

So why does this matter in any way?

A lot of people come up with "I bought a multi-stage converter to replace my stock unit. Because it's multi-stage it's better.". Well, your original converter was multi-stage. Just because the new one is *also* multi-stage, that in no way means that you upgraded. You may well have just wasted a pile of money. If all you are shopping for is "multi-stage" you can easily get ripped off.

Bob

[rmkrum]

Bob, as a point of fact, my 2007 has an original convertor that puts out only one voltage, period, roughly 13.6 volts.

I’m replacing it with a multi-stage convertor that varies both voltage and current depending upon the state of the battery’s charge. It does cut back on voltage and thus current when the battery’s charge state requires it.

I don’t have all the details handy, but as a practicing engineer I can confidently claim that in the case of lead-acid battery chemistry, charge state varies, and a multi-stage system, both convertor and solar, treats the batteries better than the original AS OEM single-fixed-voltage POS convertor.

AS did not install a multi-stage convertor until circa 2016 on any of their models. They have used the exact same one for decades...

And as another point, I have a shiny new PowerMax multi-stage convertor waiting on the bench for me to find time to install it, so my AS quits eating a set of flooded Golf Cart GC-2 batteries every other darn year...the OEM convertor boils water out of the batteries at a ridiculous rate when the battery reaches full charge.

[gator.bigfoot]

Originally Posted by Leadvox

Uncle Bob, this is amazing analysis.

Here is one site where a gentleman has been living off grid for many years. I found his insight biased, but his logic seems pretty solid.

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/...ging-puzzle-2/

Yes his logic is solid. First rule of living off the batteries is get a battery monitor. Without it you will not have idea of what is going on.

What are your loads? How much is the system charging? What is the voltage during those phases? What is the battery capacity (rated and charged)?

All of those questions need to be answered. And without a battery monitor you will not know (except the rated capacity). AGMs are lead acid batteries so set the controller to "flooded" so that they will charge properly (see Lifeline: http://lifelinebatteries.com/2015/10...agm-batteries/ )

Also, let us know what size of wires are being used in your system as well as how many watts of solar you have. A properly designed system WILL perform properly.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Bob, as a point of fact, my 2007 has an original convertor that puts out only one voltage, period, roughly 13.6 volts.

I’m replacing it with a multi-stage convertor that varies both voltage and current depending upon the state of the battery’s charge. It does cut back on voltage and thus current when the battery’s charge state requires it.

I don’t have all the details handy, but as a practicing engineer I can confidently claim that in the case of lead-acid battery chemistry, charge state varies, and a multi-stage system, both convertor and solar, treats the batteries better than the original AS OEM single-fixed-voltage POS convertor.

AS did not install a multi-stage convertor until circa 2016 on any of their models. They have used the exact same one for decades...

And as another point, I have a shiny new PowerMax multi-stage convertor waiting on the bench for me to find time to install it, so my AS quits eating a set of flooded Golf Cart GC-2 batteries every other darn year...the OEM convertor boils water out of the batteries at a ridiculous rate when the battery reaches full charge.

Thank you RMKRUM! Not trying to split hairs with Uncle Bob, but I had 3 different technical folks at AS tell me same; they have been using single stage converters, until recently, unless customer special ordered a non standard converter replacement with is new rig.

For the term, "multi stage" I "assumed" most folks following these threads would understand this is a 4 stage converter/charger as described with my Boondocker brand below;

4 STAGE CHARGING DESCRIPTIONS.
1. A fast charge (14.6 VDC Max) to bring a good, drained battery back up to full voltage rapidly ("Boost"). 2. A standard charge (13.6 VDC Nominal) to bring the battery up to a full charge at a safe rate to prolong the life of the battery and provide power to run 12V lighting and appliances in the vehicle/device ("Normal"). 3. A trickle/float charge (13.2 VDC) to keep the battery fresh during times of load inactivity ("Storage"). The charger automatically changes modes to accommodate changes in conditions. 4. When the converter is in the trickle/float mode (storage), the converter will periodically raise the voltage to mix the battery electrolyte to prevent stratification which can lead to sulfication.

Are we beating a dead horse here yet? My recommendation:
1) Get a multistage converter if you have a single stage in your AS.
2) Verify if your batteries are bad or have bad cells. If so, replace and monitor regularly.
3) Put a kill switch on your batteries and monitor them regularly.
4) Get out there and enjoy your AS....

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Bob, as a point of fact, my 2007 has an original convertor that puts out only one voltage, period, roughly 13.6 volts.

I’m replacing it with a multi-stage convertor that varies both voltage and current depending upon the state of the battery’s charge. It does cut back on voltage and thus current when the battery’s charge state requires it.

I don’t have all the details handy, but as a practicing engineer I can confidently claim that in the case of lead-acid battery chemistry, charge state varies, and a multi-stage system, both convertor and solar, treats the batteries better than the original AS OEM single-fixed-voltage POS convertor.

AS did not install a multi-stage convertor until circa 2016 on any of their models. They have used the exact same one for decades...

And as another point, I have a shiny new PowerMax multi-stage convertor waiting on the bench for me to find time to install it, so my AS quits eating a set of flooded Golf Cart GC-2 batteries every other darn year...the OEM convertor boils water out of the batteries at a ridiculous rate when the battery reaches full charge.

Hi

Does your converter current limit *before* it gets to that voltage? I'm betting it does. If it does not, it will put out a *lot* of current.

Take a look at the "stages" in a multi stage converter. The first stage is a current limited phase. The next one is a constant voltage phase. That's two, it's not a "single stage" device. You can't count one design one way and another design by a different set of rules.

More to the point, pretty much all of the converters do have a cut back based on time and current. The stock AS converters have had this feature for a very long time. That fall back gets you to three stages.

Why do I keep harping on all this?

Well, we have a multi stage converter and don't seem to notice a lot of fall back in normal use. Hmmmm .... maybe there's more to it than the term "multi-stage". Possibly the timing and current limits get into the act as well ... hmmm...

Lots of variables to consider.

Bob

[jjgoodie8]

I bought new, with all the fancy upgrades. Solar, upgraded AGS batteries, and internet in motion. I had the dealer install it all so if I have a issue, they should be happy to fix it. They told me they have the best service department so I should be rest assured, my trailer will be bug free for two years. I find the knowledgeable people on this forum to be very insightful even with the tough questions. It is better preparing me for my conversations with the dealer because already in 6 months, it has been back 4 or 5 times. They are only 15 min from my home in Plainfield, Il. so we are going to be close friends so My Suzie and I have a pleasant Airstream Experience. Thanks for all the help, we are heading to Florida in Jan, then down and over to Texas in Feb. God Bless, and Safe Travels to you all.

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Airstream service may have said this or that. Airstream documentation and the written documentation on the converters has not described the stock converters as "single stage" for a *very* long time. Indeed by the way modern terminology describes things, there never has been a "single stage" converter.

So why does this matter in any way?

A lot of people come up with "I bought a multi-stage converter to replace my stock unit. Because it's multi-stage it's better.". Well, your original converter was multi-stage. Just because the new one is *also* multi-stage, that in no way means that you upgraded. You may well have just wasted a pile of money. If all you are shopping for is "multi-stage" you can easily get ripped off.

Bob

[Al and Missy]

From the Trojan Battery website:
"There are many types of chargers available today. They are usually rated by their start rate, the rate in amperes that the charger will supply at the beginning of the charge cycle. When selecting a charger, the charge rate should be between 10% and 13% of the battery’s 20-hour AH capacity. For example, a battery with a 20-hour capacity rating of 225 AH will use a charger rated between approximately 23 and 30 amps (for multiple battery charging use the AH rating of the entire bank). Chargers with lower ratings can be used but the charging time will be increased."

My Safari 25 had a single Group 24 battery (around 75 Ah at the 20 hour rate) and a 50A converter/charger. Per the above, the bulk charge current limit should have been around 7.5 - 9.75 amps. I don't know how the Parallax converter/charger could limit the charge current into the battery to less than 10 amps. Further, I don't know how any converter charger can determine what part of its current is going to the battery and what part to DC loads. Perhaps the "smart" chargers can vary the voltage or current rapidly and determine how much of the load is actually related to charging batteries. I replaced the Parallax with a Progressive Dynamics 9260. I now use the Parallax as a bench power supply. As far as I can tell it has a constant output voltage somewhat over 13 volts. I'm sure the voltage would drop if I put it into current limit but that does not make it a multi-stage charger.

A pretty good source of battery charging information is the Trojan Battery web site. Another is:
http://www.chargingchargers.com/tutorials/charging.html

Al